EEA2 for Parents

HenrySpencer · Post by **HenrySpencer** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:56 am

Hi all, this is my first post in this forum. Could anyone please try advise me in the following matter. I am a Irish Citizen living in N.Ireland and would like my parents to come and live with me from S.Africa. Since they do not need a tourist visa to enter Ireland or the UK on S.African passports can they enter the UK or Ireland without a UK Family permit issued in the british embassy and then apply using EEA2 when here in the UK. Would the fact that they didnt get the UK family permit in Embassy be of any detriment to the EEA2 application and is this even possible? thank you for any advice offered.

Post by **JAJ** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:27 pm

HenrySpencer wrote:Hi all, this is my first post in this forum. Could anyone please try advise me in the following matter. I am a Irish Citizen living in N.Ireland and would like my parents to come and live with me from S.Africa.

What makes you think they are eligible in the first place?

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:39 pm

JAJ wrote:
HenrySpencer wrote:Hi all, this is my first post in this forum. Could anyone please try advise me in the following matter. I am a Irish Citizen living in N.Ireland and would like my parents to come and live with me from S.Africa.
What makes you think they are eligible in the first place?

As family members ie dependents?

Not sure but I guess under EEA Family Permit they'd still have to be totally dependent on the OP?

HenrySpencer · Post by **HenrySpencer** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:48 pm

yes as dependent family members of an eu citizen exercising treaty rights? do you think they would not be eligible to come and live with me? they would be totally dependent on me. can i ask what OP means? thank you for your replies.

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:07 pm

HenrySpencer wrote:yes as dependent family members of an eu citizen exercising treaty rights? do you think they would not be eligible to come and live with me? they would be totally dependent on me. can i ask what OP means? thank you for your replies.

OP mean Original Poster, ie u in this case!

The question is are they entirely dependent on you NOW, not when they get here. They would have to be 100% financially dependent on you now and have no-one in SA familywise to help.

Otherwise I think it's a long battle....

On the other hand I'm thinking EEA family permits are a bit easier than the UK route but i'm only going off what i read here so i suggest u use the search facility here!

Docterror · Post by **Docterror** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:09 am

Wanderer wrote:They would have to be 100% financially dependent on you now and have no-one in SA familywise to help

Financial dependency can be one of choice and not necessarily be one of necessity.

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:29 am

Docterror wrote:
Wanderer wrote:They would have to be 100% financially dependent on you now and have no-one in SA familywise to help
Financial dependency can be one of choice and not necessarily be one of necessity.

Doc, can you help me with this? As part of my understand and learning curve! How can you become dependent by choice? By deliberately putting yourself into a position of needing support from family? Surely the HO would block that one? Or have I misunderstood?

Docterror · Post by **Docterror** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:16 am

Wanderer wrote:Doc, can you help me with this? As part of my understand and learning curve! How can you become dependent by choice? By deliberately putting yourself into a position of needing support from family? Surely the HO would block that one? Or have I misunderstood?

Wanderer, No problem! One day I learn something from you and the next day I get to help you with your learning curve.

The financial dependency can be one of choice. Lets say that a parent/s has some other relatives like another son (or someone else) in the country that they apply from, but do not want to be financially dependant on him as they are not even on talking terms, let alone asking for resources to sustain themselves. In such cases, they should be able to be dependant on the son who is in the UK as they are closer to him and he is the only one who is interested in providing for the parents. Seeparagraph 1.2 in page 6 about this. There is no point in stopping an application by the HO of a parent who is not a dependant on a son/relative in some other place other than UK especially as the relative doesnt want the parent to be a dependant on him!

Of course, the age of the parent and whether he has some other source of income will be taken into consideration as well! If the parent is say just 44 and is fully capable of working but then apply saying he is not working and is dependant on the UK based son, the cards will not appear quite as stacked in his favour as a parent who is 65 and retired.

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:37 am

Docterror wrote:
Wanderer wrote:Doc, can you help me with this? As part of my understand and learning curve! How can you become dependent by choice? By deliberately putting yourself into a position of needing support from family? Surely the HO would block that one? Or have I misunderstood?
Wanderer, No problem! One day I learn something from you and the next day I get to help you with your learning curve.

The financial dependency can be one of choice. Lets say that a parent/s has some other relatives like another son (or someone else) in the country that they apply from, but do not want to be financially dependant on him as they are not even on talking terms, let alone asking for resources to sustain themselves. In such cases, they should be able to be dependant on the son who is in the UK as they are closer to him and he is the only one who is interested in providing for the parents. Seeparagraph 1.2 in page 6 about this. There is no point in stopping an application by the HO of a parent who is not a dependant on a son/relative in some other place other than UK especially as the relative doesnt want the parent to be a dependant on him!

Of course, the age of the parent and whether he has some other source of income will be taken into consideration as well! If the parent is say just 44 and is fully capable of working but then apply saying he is not working and is dependant on the UK based son, the cards will not appear quite as stacked in his favour as a parent who is 65 and retired.

Thanks Doc, alles klar!

But I do think it's open to manipulation in order to gain entry to UK. Let's say a parent is a dependent of a son in his home country, decides he fancies living with his son in the UK, and so 'decides' is home son is persona non-grata.

Not related to the OP of course but what happens if a dependent arrives here on the strength of being dependent on his UK-based son, and then there is a fall-out or the family cannot actually afford to support the dependent due to change of circumstances?

Sorry for hijacking the thread a bit but it keeps it alive and related to the topic.

Docterror · Post by **Docterror** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:18 pm

Wanderer wrote:But I do think it's open to manipulation in order to gain entry to UK. Let's say a parent is a dependent of a son in his home country, decides he fancies living with his son in the UK, and so 'decides' is home son is persona non-grata

Sorry to be an accomplice in a hijacking, but I must admit that in this way the EEA route has another "loophole" that can be manipulated compared to the UK Immigration rules. Then again with the right combination of deceit and oppurtunity one can always manipulate almost any set of rules especially if an ineligible person was to get an eligible person as an accomplice. Which is exactly why checks like the necessity of proof that no British/EEA is eligible for a work before work permits are issued; proof of co-habitation for marriages of convenience etc is required. Inspite of all that it would be foolish to believe that the occasional person who created a false job for making his non-EEA relative to get his ILR/naturalisation or someone who marries a British national just for the the spouse visa/ILR etc is not successful under the UK rules as well.

Not related to the OP of course but what happens if a dependent arrives here on the strength of being dependent on his UK-based son, and then there is a fall-out or the family cannot actually afford to support the dependent due to change of circumstances

A variant of this is what we are seeing in the other post with Rai72. It boggles my mind to think that a dependant is allowed to work and thus beat the very definition of being a dependant, while a non-EEA national parent in custody of an EEA child is not allowed to work in keeping with the CHEN ruling.

HenrySpencer · Post by **HenrySpencer** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:55 pm

no worries about the hijacking. dosnt the need to proove 100% dependent on sponser only apply under uk law and not eu family member rights? yes my parents would be 100% dependent on me but from wat i can see there is very little in the way of proof required for that under the eu side of things for parents. my parents do have family in their home country but no one prepared to look after them. is there anything stopping them from not applying for the 6month family permit in their home country and just arriving in the uk on their visa free passports and then applying in country? it seems like going down the eu family rights direction is easier than applying under uk immigration rules.

Docterror · Post by **Docterror** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:41 pm

Can you pls define "100% dependancy"?

HenrySpencer · Post by **HenrySpencer** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:56 am

in my eyes that would mean living with me in my home and not working so financially and emotionally dependent. i realise eu laws give family members the right to work but dosnt that defeat the object of being a dependent if they are allowed to work?

Docterror · Post by **Docterror** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:29 am

OK! There is a slight disparity between the way you are interpretting "dependant" and the way Home Office(HO) tends to interpret a dependant. Like Wanderer pointed out, you have to prove to the HO that they were dependants over there in your home country... and not just dependants when they are here.

Living with you and showing that you can sustain them without any recourse to public funds do no make them a dependant. Its a requirement for someone who is not considered a dependant as well.. like your spouse or child. The only difference between being a dependant under the EU rules and immigration rules is that of being able to chose who you are dependant on under the EU law. ie- unlike the immigration rules, you do not have to prove that there is no one in the home country who is capable of looking after them. All the other requirements of being a dependant hold true whichever route you take.

Even though there is no specific requirement in the EU rules that the EEA family permit must be a prerequisite to the Residence Card, it might prove to be an uphill task to get one without the EEA family permit. It would really be interesting to know whether you can succeed in such a scenario and if you do, pls keep us posted.

Dependants are allowed to work irrespective of whether they are being allowed to remain in the UK under the EU or immigration rules.

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