Difficulty between EEA2 and EEA4

[evil_grrrl666]

Hi everyone,

Having a bit of an issue and I was wondering if anyone had any inputs.

My husband (Indian) and I (German) have lived in the UK for over 5 years. His EEA2 permit is expiring today, even though we could've applied for EEA4 in January, his work kept stringing him along with the possiblity of sending him abroad for a business trip that never materialised. But due to this, we could not send off his passport to start the EEA4 application because it would have been needed for his supposed business trip. In the meantime I got my EEA3 issued separately (only took about a month).

Now, sadly he has been made redundant and is in between jobs. This would be the ideal time therefore to visit his parents in India because there would be no restrictions on the amount of time he could take. BUT: he does not have a valid permit for his return journey meaning he'd be at the mercy of the High Commission in Delhi to get an EEA Family permit issued or he couldn't come home to me. We have bad experiences with them; when we came to the UK initially they rejected our application on bogus grounds (this was later overturned in appeal a few months later, by which time we had already come to the UK via another country).

So now, how do we guarantee that he can come home within a reasonable timeframe? We want to apply for his citizenship next year and therefore cannot afford that his trip gets delayed and he might end up spending over 90 days abroad because then he won't be eligible for citizenship next year.

Initially when we came to the UK via France, we had no family permit due to that refusal I mention above. They stamped his passport with a 6 months entry clearance. Can't we get something like that before leaving the UK somewhere?

I've tried to contact UKBA to ask about this, but the email addresses I found, I've not received any response to, and the phone number on the website just appears to be a maze of one recorded message after another and not an actual person to be reached at all.

Does anyone have an email address they actually read & answer? Or a phone number with a person on the other end? Or some other idea, because I'm just not sure what to do anymore.

We only have a fairly small window of a few months during which time it would be viable to travel to India, otherwise he'd be out of work too long, so I'd like to get this sorted as soon as possible.

Our other idea was to get a Schengen visa so we could return to Germany and visit my family together before heading to the UK where we could argue our way in even if he doesn't have an entry clearance. At least in Europe they are aware of freedom of movement, trying to convince an airline employee in India of this would be near impossible I think. Of course the Germans have rejected this plan because his residence permit is expiring which is ridiculous because if he had the valid permit, he wouldn't need the visa according to their own advice! But anyway, that's a topic for another thread, I'm only including it here to show we are looking at all options.

Thanks!

Laura

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

If your husband goes to India, your husband could apply for a family permit there. Despite your previous experience, I cannot see how it could be refused. You've had a successful EEA2 application and you have PR.

I would not try to fly to the UK from India with an expired residence card and no family permit.

(If you are worried about the high commission in India, you could apply in another country say in Europe).

[Help on hand]

Problem might be for him leaving india rather than entering uk, as long as you have copy of your marriage certificate and travelling together as entering EU shouldn't be a problem. In india they look for evidence in his passport or paper. There will be elements of their ignorance to recognising his rights as spouse of EU citizen. They might let him leave india but i wouldn't trust them doing easily. My suggestion is to wait until you complete 1year on your PR and apply for British citizenship for both.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Problem might be for him leaving india rather than entering uk, as long as you have copy of your marriage certificate and travelling together as entering EU shouldn't be a problem. In india they look for evidence in his passport or paper. There will be elements of their ignorance to recognising his rights as spouse of EU citizen. They might let him leave india but i wouldn't trust them doing easily. My suggestion is to wait until you complete 1year on your PR and apply for British citizenship for both.

That's a little extreme, don't you think?

With regards to the rest of your post, an undocumented passenger is likely to have a problem with airlines irrespective of the country they are travelling from.

[evil_grrrl666]

Since we have time to travel NOW, not in over 1 year whenever citizenship comes through, indeed waiting is not very practical. I don't know if by that time his job situation would even allow us to travel to India for a long enough duration to justify the costs of the plane ticket!

Basically I'm still in two minds about it - logically I know that he has a right to a family permit if applied for in India, but he had that same right last time (even if our case is way stronger now). So if someone just wants to be mean about it, they could ruin our plans to return home.

I emailed the High Commission to ask for the correct procedure because the information available is quite limited. But so far have not had any response. I would feel so much better if we could get some kind of official response about this; right now it just seems like we're at the mercy of officials' whims and fancies and we have no rights at all; not even to get an email response to a valid question.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

I don't know what your previous problems were, but pre-2008, the UK expected non-EU citizens to have lived in the EU first or satisfy some requirements of the immigration rules. They no longer can do this.

The application should be really easy.

[evil_grrrl666]

The main reason for the refusal was that they weren't satisfied the EU national (me) was actually intending to move to the UK.
Then they added on some nonsense about our accommodation not being sufficient, when they never even asked for proof. And also that our savings weren't enough to sustain us, ignoring the fact that we were intending to find jobs.

It was overturned on appeal.

See the issue I'm having is I know they have no valid reason to refuse. But this forum is littered with threads about family permits and other things being refused when in most cases the applications were solid. A few hours spent reading through people's experiences is enough to give me nightmares. So if the person dealing with our application either didn't read the regulations, or is simply having a bad day and wants to make our lives miserable, they can refuse giving some nonsense reason. And there is no recourse beyond a lengthy appeals procedure, or if you're in Europe, simply walking in waving a print out of the directive and the necessary proof of relationship etc. But outside Europe, the travel without visa option is not going to be available because airlines would never let him board.

If anything goes wrong and he is stuck there, of course he can come back to the UK eventually because it's his right and they can't keep saying no. But if it gets delayed and his trip exceeds 90 days, it affects his eligibility for citizenship next year and of course cause us loads of stress because we'll be apart for god knows how many months, during which time he can't even find a new job also.

I cannot understand why there isn't a stamp or something (which doesn't take 6 whole months like EEA4!) that we could get before we travel so this situation doesn't arise, but it's impossible to ask because the UKBA isn't in the business of answering phone calls or emails apparently.

[Jambo]

I would be surprised if he gets refused this time. You mainly read bad experiences here because people tend to look for advice when things go wrong. Most of the EEA FP are issued without a problem (although this varies significantly between posts).

If he gets stuck in India because of a mistake by the ECO, I would not think it will affect his naturalisation application. The 90 days is not a must and the caseworker can apply discretion (normally upto 180 days) if the case justifies it.

The reason it takes 6 months for EEA2/4 is the backlog. The actual process doesn't take so long so even if you had a stamp process in the UK it would probably take you several months just to get an appointment. And isn't the EEA FP just basically that - a stamp that allows him to travel?

[evil_grrrl666]

Thanks Jambo, you make valid points and it does make me feel better hearing about discretion with regards to the 90 days out of the country rule for naturalisation.

One more question. If we decided for example to book a ferry and have a little weekend trip wherever in Europe, despite not having a visa (arguing it's our right according to the directive bla bla bla), upon our return, would the British stamp his passport with an entry clearance? Do they still do this? We got one the first time we came to the country via Calais.

Then presumably we could travel to India and the entry clearance would guarantee his return within a resonable timeframe.

What do you think?

Thanks again

[Jambo]

Thanks Jambo, you make valid points and it does make me feel better hearing about discretion with regards to the 90 days out of the country rule for naturalisation.

One more question. If we decided for example to book a ferry and have a little weekend trip wherever in Europe, despite not having a visa (arguing it's our right according to the directive bla bla bla), upon our return, would the British stamp his passport with an entry clearance? Do they still do this? We got one the first time we came to the country via Calais.

Then presumably we could travel to India and the entry clearance would guarantee his return within a resonable timeframe.

What do you think?

Thanks again

The Code 1A stamp you get at Calais is a single entry stamp although you might be able to convince the airline it is still valid.

[evil_grrrl666]

I'm just looking at the original stamp we got back then. It reads:
Leave to enter the United Kingdom is hereby given for/until
then the date (6 months from entry)
and a reference number.

It doesn't specify multiple or single entry. Is this the same as the code 1a stamp you're referring to or is it different now?

Thanks,

Laura

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

If an airline is confused, they will call UKBA. You might be lucky or they might insist on the family permit.

I can see why you might be concerned about family permit. That said, I cannot see you it could be refused.

Alternative thoughts, apply for a family permit somewhere in Europe, where you know if you have problems, you could enter as you'd otherwise planned.

[Jambo]

I'm just looking at the original stamp we got back then. It reads:
Leave to enter the United Kingdom is hereby given for/until
then the date (6 months from entry)
and a reference number.

It doesn't specify multiple or single entry. Is this the same as the code 1a stamp you're referring to or is it different now?

Thanks,

Laura

This is Code 1A stamp.

Well, non-visa nationals visiting the UK also get a similar stamp (with restrictions) and I believe they understand it is a single entry one even without saying so. If you can convince the airline is a different story.

[evil_grrrl666]

About applying in Europe - I saw on the list for EEA FP supporting documents that people who arent citizens in the country where they apply should show a residence document. Obviously my husband wouldn't have one because we live in the UK - as it is he can't even get a Schengen visa to go abroad troublefree because the German Embassy also want to see a residence permit for the UK. It seems like going around in circles.

[Jambo]

About applying in Europe - I saw on the list for EEA FP supporting documents that people who arent citizens in the country where they apply should show a residence document. Obviously my husband wouldn't have one because we live in the UK - as it is he can't even get a Schengen visa to go abroad troublefree because the German Embassy also want to see a residence permit for the UK. It seems like going around in circles.

That requirement has been removed since the ECJ judgement in the case of Metock back in 2008 (just shows how well UKBA update their documents). You can find it in the UKBA website - here and also here.

Same goes for the Schengen visa. If your husband apply for a visa based on the directive (i.e. travelling/joining you), residence is not required.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

About applying in Europe - I saw on the list for EEA FP supporting documents that people who arent citizens in the country where they apply should show a residence document. Obviously my husband wouldn't have one because we live in the UK - as it is he can't even get a Schengen visa to go abroad troublefree because the German Embassy also want to see a residence permit for the UK. It seems like going around in circles.

I can assure you that a family permit can be applied wherever.

Some VACs issue them more quickly than others. Some require an appointment.

All are obliged to issue them as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure. You don't strike me as a person who would take nonsense!