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True, that is what happened in Spain, x5. But the issue there is, they had an amnesty because they knew they needed the workers and were an asset to the country (although maybe the other Schengen countries didn't think they were benefitting from more free movers!). Actually I wonder if they gave them PR or just a temporary stay, and if so, how many actually left.More people will be encouraged to become illegal and stay back in this country with the assumption that they will get amnesty at some point of time in the future.
I did write at the begining before giving the example that "The following may not be the right example".eso wrote:of all examples possible (of course you'd rather liken it to a crime ) you have chosen "MURDER"
True, but in case of the OP he intentionally overstayed his visa.eso wrote: people come to this country for various reasons ,some get denied freedom ,some food some simply aspire to a more confortable life
it is amazing how you get stigmatise just for being here illegally
Are you going to justify you illegal status based on where I hail from?eso wrote:it would be intersting to know where you hail from ?
If I was rich enough to afford an architect designed penthouse in Kensington, do you think I will have enough time to sit on the internet or even if I did, will be visiting the immigration forums?eso wrote:i am sure that from your architect designed penthouse in kensington
True, but at the same time he has been selfish enough to deny the same job / post to another person, like an HSMP visa holder qualifying for the same post, who is legally in this country.eso wrote:this guy has hardly worked as the CEO of a stockbroker firm
this gentleman along with hundreds of thousands more .is somehow eligible for something beside the holidays he cant use
To be fair, I don't think that the fact that someone doesn't think that an immigration amnesty is a sensible approach means that that person is necessarily stigmatising people who are in the country illegally and doesn't realise that there are many reasons why people end up as illegal immigrants; such a person may also be aware that some of these reasons point to personal tragedies of the first water.eso wrote:of all examples possible (of course you'd rather liken it to a crime ) you have chosen "MURDER"
people come to this country for various reasons ,some get denied freedom ,some food some simply aspire to a more confortable life
it is amazing how you get stigmatise just for being here illegally
it would be intersting to know where you hail from ?
i am sure that from your architect designed penthouse in kensington you could see that this guy has hardly worked as the CEO of a stockbroker firm
this gentleman along with hundreds of thousands more .is somehow eligible for something beside the holidays he cant use
olisun wrote:Why did you decide to become an illegal immigrant in the first place?
The following may not be the right example, but here goes.
If somebody commits a murder due to whatever reason, do you think he should be / she should be let free?
Does the person have the right to murder somebody in the first place?
Having an amnesty will create more problems for the govt. and the citizens ... More people will be encouraged to become illegal and stay back in this country with the assumption that they will get amnesty at some point of time in the future. And this country can take only so many people as there is a physical limitation.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ ... _n16168283kairos wrote:They frequently work in conditions that allow their British employers to get rich, and put their own lives in danger (the Chinese cocklers killed in 2004, for example ).
kairos wrote: You're right that the HO expects legal immigrants to cover the cost of combatting fraud but their position is unethical and absurd ?
Hi every one, first of all thanks for posting on this forum.olisun wrote:Why did you decide to become an illegal immigrant in the first place?
The following may not be the right example, but here goes.
If somebody commits a murder due to whatever reason, do you think he should be / she should be let free?
Does the person have the right to murder somebody in the first place?
Having an amnesty will create more problems for the govt. and the citizens ... More people will be encouraged to become illegal and stay back in this country with the assumption that they will get amnesty at some point of time in the future. And this country can take only so many people as there is a physical limitation.
adindas wrote:What do you think of document forgery such as NI number, Passport forgery. Is it not that passport forgery a serious crime ???
What do you think if your place have been stolen unfairly, by criminal means. People have stolen the place of other people (e.g. genuine refugees) who flee from prosecution, choice between death or life. People making false story of prosecution, come from the back of the lorry, on your name. You believe in honesty and the truth will come out in the court of justice but you know many of these people have been tried but failed. One place for illegal immigrant means less place for genuine refugees elsewhere. And you start thinking criminal are more valued in community rather than people who believe in honesty and fair value. You lstart thinking better to become criminal.
Imagine you are queing in the row through tough/procedure and when it is your turn, your application was turned down/get rejected. In the meanwhile criminals by pass you and get ammesty. Is it fair to these people ?
You're getting carried away. Don't confuse "illegal immigrant" with someone who has intentionally done something illegal. The term "illegal immigrants" is just a tag. It does not automatically mean someone is illegal nor does it mean they are immigrants. Sure, some of them have come on false documents but many so called "illegal immigrants" are victims rather than criminals. And they've never done anything illegal.And you start thinking criminal are more valued in community rather than people who believe in honesty and fair value. You lstart thinking better to become criminal.
OL7MAX wrote: Your logic is flawed and displays a sad ignorance that many in the UK exhibit.
That's not your problem. Or mine. What if the immigrant believed he was getting a genuine job and genuine work permit? What if he was dealing with a fraudulent UK national and believed that he was getting a college admission and genuine study visa? Would you have the UK national deported somewhere? What if some third party bribed home office staff to give him a passport when technically he wasn't yet eligible for one? What if the agent/company handling these WP and other applications are presenting fraudulent documents that the candidates know nothing about?Do you have a solution how do you prove this ?
Why will i pay someone to arrange immigration for me if i do not have a clandestine motive, the person who gets fake docs is to blame. Even immigration lawyers not listed in OISC cant work as immigration lawyers, these things are easy to check. People paying such peolple already know they are by-passing the system.sakura wrote:I think the thing we need to recognise is that not everyone who is here illegally is a criminal (which reminds me of a law that the US tried to pass making it a 'felony' to be illegal...didn't pass, btw).
Now, even some people in the EU have been duped into coming to the UK clandestinely or without showing themselves (i.e. Lithuanians, Latvians, etc), thinking they are coming to work in bars, cafes, if they pay someone some money to arrange it, etc, only to end up working as prostitutes. A lot of people who do get fake documents did it unknowingly, thinking that it was just a matter of paying some money (call it naive if you like), and a lot of them do really think they are real documents, until they get caught, of course.
At the same time, there really are those who knowingly engaged in dodgy activities in order to secure/obtain a (fake) work permit, or residency papers. And there are obviously those who applied for asylum despite coming from a safe (but maybe poor) country. But you can't tar everyone with the same brush...although I would say that it is these people who make it hard for genuine asylum seekers, when they lie about where they come from, then bring their whole family over once granted refugee status, etc etc.
I know of a family...the guy had come on a (genuine) student visa, but they kept refusing his wife a dependent visa, and even a visit visa. So when they finally were granted a visit visa, the wife decided not to go back, despite her visa expiring...
Anyway, all talk about amnesties just gets too emotional, and it is hard to think straight about whether it should be given, who benefits, why and what they should get (compared to, say, legal immigrants). On a practical level, it wouldn't stop people from coming illegally, but on a moral one (if the HO knows what that is!), it is obviously the right thing to do, as most of these people aren't going anywhere (esp. if they have family, kids, etc).
But since the HO has ruled this out, and since neither the Liberal Democrats or Conservatives (yeah right...) would consider an amnesty (let's say the Tories win the next general election...very likely...do you really think they would consider an amnesty, even with pressure from certain public organisations?). So why keep talking about it, like it is going to happen soon? Someday, maybe...
... is an ignorant and factually incorrect comment.An illegal immigrant is just that
LOL. Even many literate people here in the UK won't know that fact and you expect semi-literate rurals workers in third world countries to be experts on checking the credentials of their advisers?Even immigration lawyers not listed in OISC cant work as immigration lawyers, these things are easy to check.
Indeed there "a very tiny proprtion in this category, but if you you want to see the fact why people get fake college admission, see my post about bogus students.OL7MAX wrote:What if he was dealing with a fraudulent UK national and believed that he was getting a college admission and genuine study visa?
Again there is no doubt there a very tiny proportion in this category. However, majority GOT FRAUDULENT DOCUMENTS BECAUSE THEY INTEND TO DO THAT AND THUS KNOW IT FROM THE BEGINNING.OL7MAX wrote: What if the agent/company handling these WP and other applications are presenting fraudulent documents that the candidates know nothing about? ?
OL7MAX wrote:This thread is about amnesty.
You have forwarded criminality as a reason for not issuing an amnesty (completely in ignorance of the fact that many "Illegal Immigrants" aren't criminal).