Immigration ammnesty.

[Nemome]

Dear Sear/Madam I have understood that public do not have complete knowledge about this issue .
I will send copies of this letter to several different organisations so hopefully
At least one of them will react to it and will make some public enquiries or come up with answers.
Unfortunately I can’t reveal my name, there is a reasons for this.
According to law I am an illegal immigrant some one who stays in the UK after expiry of Visa, some one who lives like a parasite, which most people in British society think, whether that is right or wrong it depends on your personal opinion, and this is a thing that I am trying to find out.
What is the public opinions on it ???
I am aware of breaking the law, but I am not considering myself as a criminal.
Every single one of us has done something against the law sometimes even with out knowing it, making copies of music or films, parking in wrong places, avoiding to pay taxes and many-many more.
You can say it is our country and it is our right to have a society where there will be no illegal immigrants who are stealing our jobs, underpaying taxes or doing something else bad for our economy. You are absolutely right!!! But it happens that there are people like me who live in the UK and it is completely up to you how you are going to solve this problem?
My Visa expired 6 years ago. Since my very first day in UK I have always worked, working in different places and on different jobs it is always the national minimum wage payment and for every pound I earn I have paid tax, I know people who live the same life for more than 11 years and they will tell you same story.
So if every body is working and paying tax, many will go to the system and since you have got an unregistered number of workers who are producing tax but can’t use any benefits like medical services, pension … All of this generates questions:
Whay illegal workers paying tax?
Be cause it is much more profitable to employer to have the employee who earn many, that employer can clam as his tax expenses, specially if you cannot get workers you need.

How big is the problem with illegal immigrants in UK ????(Maybe it is just big enough to distract the public attention from things more important??)
Why the police and Home Office can’t solve this problem????

It is impossible to do impossible things. The actual circumstances that are creating reasons, which are making people become illegal immigrant are far outside of UK.
First of all it is very difficult to get Visa especially a working Visa, person who applying for Visa have to pay fee along with application and this fee is not refundable if application where rejected. Losing £200 in the country where you are can earn £30 per month is hard and it makes people search for assistance from third parties and who will give “HELP& GUARANTEEâ€

[adindas]

Weel written mate
but could you let people in this forum know how did you manage to get the Job and have been working for 6 years without proper paper ?.

Adindas

[olisun]

Why did you decide to become an illegal immigrant in the first place?

The following may not be the right example, but here goes.

If somebody commits a murder due to whatever reason, do you think he should be / she should be let free?

Does the person have the right to murder somebody in the first place?

Having an amnesty will create more problems for the govt. and the citizens ... More people will be encouraged to become illegal and stay back in this country with the assumption that they will get amnesty at some point of time in the future. And this country can take only so many people as there is a physical limitation.

[eso]

of all examples possible (of course you'd rather liken it to a crime ) you have chosen "MURDER"
people come to this country for various reasons ,some get denied freedom ,some food some simply aspire to a more confortable life
it is amazing how you get stigmatise just for being here illegally
it would be intersting to know where you hail from ?
i am sure that from your architect designed penthouse in kensington you could see that this guy has hardly worked as the CEO of a stockbroker firm
this gentleman along with hundreds of thousands more .is somehow eligible for something beside the holidays he cant use

[sakura]

Olisun wrote:

More people will be encouraged to become illegal and stay back in this country with the assumption that they will get amnesty at some point of time in the future.

True, that is what happened in Spain, x5. But the issue there is, they had an amnesty because they knew they needed the workers and were an asset to the country (although maybe the other Schengen countries didn't think they were benefitting from more free movers!). Actually I wonder if they gave them PR or just a temporary stay, and if so, how many actually left.

Eso - not everyone (on the board) is anti-illegals or whatever, just because they don't agree with an amnesty; neither are they looking down on people from their "architect designed penthouse in kensington".

Yes you get stigmatised for being an illegal, but ask some Polish and they probably get stigmatised for all sorts of things too, just by virtue of being a Pole in the UK (of course it isn't right for either groups, but some people are ignorant). Doesn't mean to say one can over-generalise about the whole of the UK. Not everyone reads The Sun or Mirror you know.

[angelus]

Stay put mate, I've been here for 10 years illegally I start to enjoy the passivity of situation (just nothing you can do) - look out for the jobs where people do not ask for papers (avoid those that do)...

This country needs some "slave labour" unfortunaltely most of the illegal immigrants fall into that category, poor suckers (including me) :)

Get some good friends and most importantly look after yourself (take it easy when you can) and enjoy life or whatever's left of it for you, because maybe one day government will come to its senses and follow the example of Spain, Italy and US and declare an amnesty but until then they have to fix the borders that are in awful state, and more importantly the mess within its own organisation - Home Office!!!

Think positive :)

[olisun]

of all examples possible (of course you'd rather liken it to a crime ) you have chosen "MURDER"

I did write at the begining before giving the example that "The following may not be the right example".

people come to this country for various reasons ,some get denied freedom ,some food some simply aspire to a more confortable life
it is amazing how you get stigmatise just for being here illegally

True, but in case of the OP he intentionally overstayed his visa.

it would be intersting to know where you hail from ?

Are you going to justify you illegal status based on where I hail from?

i am sure that from your architect designed penthouse in kensington

If I was rich enough to afford an architect designed penthouse in Kensington, do you think I will have enough time to sit on the internet or even if I did, will be visiting the immigration forums?

this guy has hardly worked as the CEO of a stockbroker firm
this gentleman along with hundreds of thousands more .is somehow eligible for something beside the holidays he cant use

True, but at the same time he has been selfish enough to deny the same job / post to another person, like an HSMP visa holder qualifying for the same post, who is legally in this country.

[Christophe]

of all examples possible (of course you'd rather liken it to a crime ) you have chosen "MURDER"
people come to this country for various reasons ,some get denied freedom ,some food some simply aspire to a more confortable life
it is amazing how you get stigmatise just for being here illegally
it would be intersting to know where you hail from ?
i am sure that from your architect designed penthouse in kensington you could see that this guy has hardly worked as the CEO of a stockbroker firm
this gentleman along with hundreds of thousands more .is somehow eligible for something beside the holidays he cant use

To be fair, I don't think that the fact that someone doesn't think that an immigration amnesty is a sensible approach means that that person is necessarily stigmatising people who are in the country illegally and doesn't realise that there are many reasons why people end up as illegal immigrants; such a person may also be aware that some of these reasons point to personal tragedies of the first water.

The problem is a complex one, brought about in part by situations external to the UK and in part by failures of government policy and by governmental inattention to various issues. Since the problem is complex, there is no easy or single solution: if there were an easy or single solution it would have been found by now and the problem would have gone away.

[adindas]

Also remember this people live on the expense of others. The recent announcement of fee increase on HSMP, LTR, FLR, ILR, etc is to combat the immigaraion fraud in the UK which include falsifying ID, passport, etc.

The fee increase because in the HO eye the people on all work permit categories need to pay for immigration fraud in the UK.

Adindas

Why did you decide to become an illegal immigrant in the first place?

The following may not be the right example, but here goes.

If somebody commits a murder due to whatever reason, do you think he should be / she should be let free?

Does the person have the right to murder somebody in the first place?

Having an amnesty will create more problems for the govt. and the citizens ... More people will be encouraged to become illegal and stay back in this country with the assumption that they will get amnesty at some point of time in the future. And this country can take only so many people as there is a physical limitation.

[kairos]

Sorry Adindas, but I don't think what you've said makes any sense whatsoever. How are illegal immigrants living off of others? They are not entitled to access any social benefits or protections. They frequently work in conditions that allow their British employers to get rich, and put their own lives in danger (the Chinese cocklers killed in 2004, for example ). All because of draconian policies that make their presence here illegal in the first place.

You're right that the HO expects legal immigrants to cover the cost of combatting fraud but their position is unethical and absurd. What connection is there between an illegal and legal immigrant? Nothing more than the connection between an illegal and anybody else. Why allow immigration if you're going constantly portray it as a slightly dodgy thing to do and lump together those who obey the law with those who don't?

I had the benefit of being born in an affluent country to a middle class family and was consequently able to immigrate to the UK legally. To those of you didn't have those advantages but decided to pursue your dreams of liberty and security anyway, I say good for you. Laws can be changed; hopefully one day this country will come to its senses and give you the welcome you deserve. Until then British people like me will continue to battle for the rights that you can't demand for yourselves.

[olisun]

They frequently work in conditions that allow their British employers to get rich, and put their own lives in danger (the Chinese cocklers killed in 2004, for example ).

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ ... _n16168283

[adindas]

This is what I mean. Irrespectively, whether it is ethical for HO or not to do so, this fact has happened.


Adindas

You're right that the HO expects legal immigrants to cover the cost of combatting fraud but their position is unethical and absurd ?

[OL7MAX]

There was a long discussion about possible amnesty and whether it's a good or bad thing here.

[Nemome]

Why did you decide to become an illegal immigrant in the first place?

The following may not be the right example, but here goes.

If somebody commits a murder due to whatever reason, do you think he should be / she should be let free?

Does the person have the right to murder somebody in the first place?

Having an amnesty will create more problems for the govt. and the citizens ... More people will be encouraged to become illegal and stay back in this country with the assumption that they will get amnesty at some point of time in the future. And this country can take only so many people as there is a physical limitation.

Hi every one, first of all thanks for posting on this forum.
When I come to UK I had working visa to work on the farm, where I was working for 6 month after farmer apply for extension of my Visa for next 2 month as I was involved in fields irrigations, I did very well on the farm from 200 working there only me and an other person was doing something more intellectual then picking berry’s, despite our very limited English at the time.
Over in the Country where I was born there is very different economical situation and children are much more dependent on financial support from their parents. It was difficult for me in my 20 Years old to ask my parents for new trainers or some cash for my girlfriend flowers, please don’t get me wrong my father have always paid my education in the medical college (full time 4 years) even if he wanted me to do Law, and after I graduated (34- subjects excellent level and 12- level Good out of 46) father was still supporting me, as I could never get job that would pay for at list some sort of accommodation.
All I wanted to prove to my parents that I am worth something, so after work on the farm I manage to save up £3500 (minimum wage was £3.75) I went to college in London to study English and make my parents proud. 6 month later I have received rejection from home office on my student visa application that I have applied after joining college. I had 10 days to leave the country and there was no right to appellation and to all of this my bank balance went from £3500 to 62 pence and that is not a way to prove your parents any thing. So I needed to make at list some cash before I could return home but it is not easy if you are not permitted even to be in UK. I went and got false Id paper it cost me £80, but I could not use it, I just feel it was very wrong and I couldn’t do it I have set this ID on fire. No work no id no £ in the pocket I am already overstay my Visa, my girlfriend can’t get this whole thing we split up, so future looking bright to me?
In UK it is cruelty to animals if they where used to do medical tests for pharmaceutical companies in developing new drugs instead they can use human, of cose humans intelligent and they will do so conches in their good will. Did you ever think who will put them self in such risk ????? This people in white over alls don’t ask you to many questions about visa or work permit, they use to pay £30 a visit and all your travelling fee. This market is so big you can even travel the world and stop for day in medical centre.
This is a way it all started for me every illegal immigrant will have their very personal story to tell, I was writing letters to Prime Minister and the News papers but no body really care as long as their bottom in the worm place and I don’t blame them for it, they are human beings and please don’t blame me for my ambitions as I am human to.
There is a lot of illegal immigrants in UK they are working next to you they are running businesses that you are using their kids play the same game as your kids do
They are live lives that benefit this community as much as thy can do considering all restriction up on them and that is truth! And everything that government say, that i/imm. Coming to UK to use social services and access NHS is absolute B/S, as it is 100 times ease to apply for asylum and to receive free accommodation and food then to struggle and sleep in the parks.
Over time I live in UK I have over think a lot I have regret a lot, I have overlooked on the values in the live many times, and I realise that all of this time I was trying to prove something for my self but not for my parents and now I just don’t want to start everything from very beginning and go through the same thing that I did 6 years ego, I need to have stable ground under my feet. I believe that I have contributed to this country
And that I deserve to have second chance.
If you are supporting me in what I just say PLEASE discus this mater with your friends, at work in the pub let people around you to have more knowledge on this issue
Let them know the truth.

Thank you very much to all of you !!!!!!!!!

[adindas]

What do you think of document forgery such as NI number, Passport forgery. Is it not that passport forgery a serious crime ???.

What do you think if your place have been stolen unfairly, by criminal means. People have stolen the place of other people (e.g. genuine refugees) who flee from prosecution, choice between death or life. People making false story of prosecution, come from the back of the lorry, on your name. You believe in honesty and the truth will come out in the court of justice but you know many of these people have been tried but failed. One place for illegal immigrant means less place for genuine refugees elsewhere. And you start thinking criminal are more valued in community rather than people who believe in honesty and fair value. You lstart thinking better to become criminal.

Imagine you are queing in the row through tough/procedure and when it is your turn, your application was turned down/get rejected. In the meanwhile criminals by pass you and get ammesty. Is it fair to these people ?

[angelus]

I get on my knees and express my sincere gratitude to all those illegal immigrants,
those 570,000+ "ghosts" and "aliens" that drift in the shadows of this country...

- all those who contribute to this country in any way they can and go unnoticed...

- all those bona fides that commit NO crime, claim NO benefits and NOT a "burden" to a society...

- all those who make a living with NO legal status, NO passports, NO NI numbers in whatever way they can...

- all those who's got in their position due to the circumstances at their home, their countries or their families...

- all those with a "good" will, determination and passion...

- all those who achieve unachievable...

- all those whose times of trial are long...

as Sebastian Faulks wrote "real faith is not to be found in the pale face of the anchorite but in the ravaged lives of those who have had to struggle to survive..."


I salute you!!!!

II Angelus

[Nemome]

Hello Adindas.
You right about the passport or id forgery is a serious crime but you have always consider circumstances.
Some 200 years ego person was criminalized, prosecuted and probably killed as punishment just for escaping from their slave master. 200 years it age of 3 generations time always change values in live, you can say it is completely different things, but in both situations it all to do with the circumstances.

What do you think of document forgery such as NI number, Passport forgery. Is it not that passport forgery a serious crime ???

What do you think if your place have been stolen unfairly, by criminal means. People have stolen the place of other people (e.g. genuine refugees) who flee from prosecution, choice between death or life. People making false story of prosecution, come from the back of the lorry, on your name. You believe in honesty and the truth will come out in the court of justice but you know many of these people have been tried but failed. One place for illegal immigrant means less place for genuine refugees elsewhere. And you start thinking criminal are more valued in community rather than people who believe in honesty and fair value. You lstart thinking better to become criminal.

Imagine you are queing in the row through tough/procedure and when it is your turn, your application was turned down/get rejected. In the meanwhile criminals by pass you and get ammesty. Is it fair to these people ?

[OL7MAX]

And you start thinking criminal are more valued in community rather than people who believe in honesty and fair value. You lstart thinking better to become criminal.

You're getting carried away. Don't confuse "illegal immigrant" with someone who has intentionally done something illegal. The term "illegal immigrants" is just a tag. It does not automatically mean someone is illegal nor does it mean they are immigrants. Sure, some of them have come on false documents but many so called "illegal immigrants" are victims rather than criminals. And they've never done anything illegal.

Over 100,000 so called illegal immigrants came here as kids under their parents' asylum or other application. They went to school here, made friends here, took up jobs and found partners. Some of them never even knew their status became illegal (when their parents overstayed). What is your contention - that they are such dangerous "criminals" that you should cross the road when you see them?

Then there are cases like mine where I was not able to leave the UK because of administrative problems (it's a long story and I spent many years trying to get out of this crap country).

If you fall comatose today and your visa expires tomorrow you become an illegal immigrant within the next 24 hours - and there's nothing you can do about it.

There are several other circumstances one can become an illegal immigrant.

Your logic is flawed and displays a sad ignorance that many in the UK exhibit. Rant and rave all you want about those individuals who commit serious crimes but don't display the ignorance your government would like to keep you wallowed in. "Illegal immigrants" is a tag your government uses. It hides government inadequacies, it distracts from the truth, it puts the blame elsewhere, it stirs up shit in someone else's cess pit. Convenient.

Try "criminal overstayers" and "miscellaneous, no-fault overstayers". Doesn't have the same ring, does it? But it's a more accurate way of describing that group you refer to as illegal immigrants.

[adindas]

I am refering to people who already have a criminal intent from the beginning. They know already once they arrive they will find someone to forge NI number, Passport, etc. The people who could forge their document defenitely have network, family, friends, relatives that provides them with information and help them to go underground.

The problem is that it is difficult to prove someone has already criminal intent from beginning or not. Do you have a solution how do you prove this ?.

They could work becasue they have "papers". And in some point of the year they know they will get ammesty.

Adindas

Your logic is flawed and displays a sad ignorance that many in the UK exhibit.

[OL7MAX]

This thread is about amnesty.

You have forwarded criminality as a reason for not issuing an amnesty (completely in ignorance of the fact that many "Illegal Immigrants" aren't criminal).

Do you have a solution how do you prove this ?

That's not your problem. Or mine. What if the immigrant believed he was getting a genuine job and genuine work permit? What if he was dealing with a fraudulent UK national and believed that he was getting a college admission and genuine study visa? Would you have the UK national deported somewhere? What if some third party bribed home office staff to give him a passport when technically he wasn't yet eligible for one? What if the agent/company handling these WP and other applications are presenting fraudulent documents that the candidates know nothing about?

It's arrogant of you to generalise about and judge those you call "illegal immigrants". I'll repeat: just because someone is called an "Illegal Immigrant" does not make him someone who does illegal things.

[Papafaith]

An illegal immigrant is just that, and anything illegal is criminal. Illegal means "as opposing to law abiding", Peolple should be honest to do things properly, there is no excuse.

[sakura]

I think the thing we need to recognise is that not everyone who is here illegally is a criminal (which reminds me of a law that the US tried to pass making it a 'felony' to be illegal...didn't pass, btw).

Now, even some people in the EU have been duped into coming to the UK clandestinely or without showing themselves (i.e. Lithuanians, Latvians, etc), thinking they are coming to work in bars, cafes, if they pay someone some money to arrange it, etc, only to end up working as prostitutes. A lot of people who do get fake documents did it unknowingly, thinking that it was just a matter of paying some money (call it naive if you like), and a lot of them do really think they are real documents, until they get caught, of course.

At the same time, there really are those who knowingly engaged in dodgy activities in order to secure/obtain a (fake) work permit, or residency papers. And there are obviously those who applied for asylum despite coming from a safe (but maybe poor) country. But you can't tar everyone with the same brush...although I would say that it is these people who make it hard for genuine asylum seekers, when they lie about where they come from, then bring their whole family over once granted refugee status, etc etc.

I know of a family...the guy had come on a (genuine) student visa, but they kept refusing his wife a dependent visa, and even a visit visa. So when they finally were granted a visit visa, the wife decided not to go back, despite her visa expiring...

Anyway, all talk about amnesties just gets too emotional, and it is hard to think straight about whether it should be given, who benefits, why and what they should get (compared to, say, legal immigrants). On a practical level, it wouldn't stop people from coming illegally, but on a moral one (if the HO knows what that is!), it is obviously the right thing to do, as most of these people aren't going anywhere (esp. if they have family, kids, etc).

But since the HO has ruled this out, and since neither the Liberal Democrats or Conservatives (yeah right...) would consider an amnesty (let's say the Tories win the next general election...very likely...do you really think they would consider an amnesty, even with pressure from certain public organisations?). So why keep talking about it, like it is going to happen soon? Someday, maybe...

[Papafaith]

I think the thing we need to recognise is that not everyone who is here illegally is a criminal (which reminds me of a law that the US tried to pass making it a 'felony' to be illegal...didn't pass, btw).

Now, even some people in the EU have been duped into coming to the UK clandestinely or without showing themselves (i.e. Lithuanians, Latvians, etc), thinking they are coming to work in bars, cafes, if they pay someone some money to arrange it, etc, only to end up working as prostitutes. A lot of people who do get fake documents did it unknowingly, thinking that it was just a matter of paying some money (call it naive if you like), and a lot of them do really think they are real documents, until they get caught, of course.

At the same time, there really are those who knowingly engaged in dodgy activities in order to secure/obtain a (fake) work permit, or residency papers. And there are obviously those who applied for asylum despite coming from a safe (but maybe poor) country. But you can't tar everyone with the same brush...although I would say that it is these people who make it hard for genuine asylum seekers, when they lie about where they come from, then bring their whole family over once granted refugee status, etc etc.

I know of a family...the guy had come on a (genuine) student visa, but they kept refusing his wife a dependent visa, and even a visit visa. So when they finally were granted a visit visa, the wife decided not to go back, despite her visa expiring...

Anyway, all talk about amnesties just gets too emotional, and it is hard to think straight about whether it should be given, who benefits, why and what they should get (compared to, say, legal immigrants). On a practical level, it wouldn't stop people from coming illegally, but on a moral one (if the HO knows what that is!), it is obviously the right thing to do, as most of these people aren't going anywhere (esp. if they have family, kids, etc).

But since the HO has ruled this out, and since neither the Liberal Democrats or Conservatives (yeah right...) would consider an amnesty (let's say the Tories win the next general election...very likely...do you really think they would consider an amnesty, even with pressure from certain public organisations?). So why keep talking about it, like it is going to happen soon? Someday, maybe...

Why will i pay someone to arrange immigration for me if i do not have a clandestine motive, the person who gets fake docs is to blame. Even immigration lawyers not listed in OISC cant work as immigration lawyers, these things are easy to check. People paying such peolple already know they are by-passing the system.
If i come as a visitor, why do i allow my leave to expire and stay back/ Because i never wanted to go back in the first place.
If i apply for FLR and it is refused, why dont i return home in the 28 days given, why wait to be illigals. Staying back to fight an appeal is a different issue. I will rather go home than be used to enrich slave masters in the black market.

[OL7MAX]

An illegal immigrant is just that

... is an ignorant and factually incorrect comment.

There are grandmothers who came here legally before World War II from places like Canada and the US, are technically "illegal immigrants", and don't know it. Their kids born and brought up here - and many of them grandparents themselves - are also technically "illegal". Also, see my previous example of kids of overstayers. In case you are unaware it is not possible for a minor to commit the crime of "overstaying".

Even immigration lawyers not listed in OISC cant work as immigration lawyers, these things are easy to check.

LOL. Even many literate people here in the UK won't know that fact and you expect semi-literate rurals workers in third world countries to be experts on checking the credentials of their advisers?

[adindas]

I disagree whith that. Common believe many 'unlawful' immigrants could work because they fake their passort, NI number. This is a serious crime.

What if he was dealing with a fraudulent UK national and believed that he was getting a college admission and genuine study visa?

Indeed there "a very tiny proprtion in this category, but if you you want to see the fact why people get fake college admission, see my post about bogus students.
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... highlight=

What if the agent/company handling these WP and other applications are presenting fraudulent documents that the candidates know nothing about? ?

Again there is no doubt there a very tiny proportion in this category. However, majority GOT FRAUDULENT DOCUMENTS BECAUSE THEY INTEND TO DO THAT AND THUS KNOW IT FROM THE BEGINNING.
Is it that they pay to get one ?.
People who are presenting fraudulent documents and did not know about this should report himselves ito the Authority. In this case they will be treateted as a victim rather than a criminal. Why did not they do that if they are a victim ???????????????????
The truth will come out in the court of justice.
See for instance The chinese cockler pickers. THey were treated as a victim. Sex slave from Eastern Europe, some of them (of not majority) have been smugled as illegal immigrant with fake documents, etc. But if they were caught they will be treated as a victim.

Is it not that the UK justice system is one of the most independent institution in the world. Take for example Afghan Hi-Jackers that have caused alot of damage, was ruled out in favour of them.

Adindas

Note: OL7MAX Please do not get me wrong, I am not refering to you. I am refering to people who intend to be a criminal from the first instance.

This thread is about amnesty.

You have forwarded criminality as a reason for not issuing an amnesty (completely in ignorance of the fact that many "Illegal Immigrants" aren't criminal).