EU 1 - Has anyone got a response in the last 4 weeks?

efrenirvana · Post by **efrenirvana** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:22 pm

--------

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:22 pm

My condolences to each of you having to deal with this disruption to your personal lives. Keep up hope and fight (and appeal) hard!

Another track: Any ideas what kind of residence in another EU country will satisfy Justice?

tomasmv · Post by **tomasmv** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:52 pm

so I am in the same situation, I started on november 2006 the EU1 application form, I am EU citizen but never lived in europe, so my wife will be regected....what do you think I should do before the 6 months end and receive the negative......
thanks in advance.

Erik84 · Post by **Erik84** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:34 pm

tomasmv wrote:so I am in the same situation, I started on november 2006 the EU1 application form, I am EU citizen but never lived in europe, so my wife will be regected....what do you think I should do before the 6 months end and receive the negative......
thanks in advance.

Hi tomasmv,

My take on this is that Irish authorities/politicians arent very keen on being obliged by EU rights to allow all spouses of EU nationals to stay in Europe. They would much prefer to pick and choose themsleves and have something to say to voters who complain about too much immigration.

What's going to happen now is first the courtcase. If the outcome is favourable there from our point of view, our wifes' applications are unlikely to be rejected.

If the outcome is not favourable it will mean that there is no EU right to have your spouse to join you, but it doesnt necessarily mean that no spouses will be allowed to join their EU husbands. I am not at all convinced that there will be a blanket rejection of all spouses moving in from outside the EU. Spouses of non-EU work permit holders are allowed to join their husbands after one year. If all non-EU spouses of EU nationals are denied residency, it would essentially mean that a Bangladeshi work permit holder is in a much better position to get his wife to come here than a German engineer married to a South African national.

I think that what might happen is that they will approve applications on maybe some of the following criteria:

-length of marriage
-perceived seriousness of marriage
-job/salary of EU citizen
-whether the health insurance is fancy

In the rejection however it will say that the reason is that the spouse is moving in from outside the EU.

Well, these are speculations, but my point is that there is definetly a chance that your application will be approved.

Nevertheless, making contingency plans seems to be a good idea. I outlined one idea in the support group thread that I believe works for Swedish nationals and probably also for people from other EU countries.

Finally, I must stress how utterly wrong it would be if it is ruled that EU nationals do not have a right to have their spouses to join them. As someone mentioned it would practically mean that Irish are allowed to marry non-EU citizens but other EU nationals living in Ireland are not (well, maybe to marry, but not to live together in Ireland) That would be so completely against the whole idea of the EU.

scrudu · Post by **scrudu** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:54 am

Erik84: Just to point out, that Irish citizens who marry non-EU nationals, are in a worse situation than other EU citizens who marry non-EU nationals. There is no "right" to residence in Ireland based on marriage to an Irish citizen, so any application for residency by a non-EU spouse, can be refused (check out shellylooney's posts for an example of this). Although the Irish constitution "pledges itself to guard with special care the institution of Marriage, on which the Family is founded, and to protect it against attack", this is not carried over in to Irish laws for immigration.

If an Irish citizen marries an non-EU national in Ireland and then applies for residency for the non-EU spouse based on Marriage, this application will take 16-18 months to be processed. The non-EU national usually opts to return home, and apply for a Spouse Visa to return to Ireland as this only takes 6-8 weeks to processs.

The only way out of this is if the Irish citizen has resided and worked in another EU country with their non-EU spouse, then on returning to Ireland, they can apply under Directive/2004/38/EC for residency for their non-EU spouse.

Babsie · Post by **Babsie** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:58 am

dsab85 wrote:Just to keep you updated. We just got a response from the Department of justice.

My wifes EU1 application was rejected on the basis that we have not lived together in another EU country before living in Ireland. Wife read the letter to me, and I will put a copy up here later.

According to the letter the high court Case is due at the end of April, and depending on that outcome they might reconsider an appeal.

My wife is in tears. I guess i will move back to my country asap now.

I can't believe this. I can expect the same "treatment" then.
How can this be? How can we just take it and have no rights?
dsab85 can I just ask you how long you have been living in Ireland and how long yuo guys are married?
I'm absolutely devastated.

Babsie · Post by **Babsie** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:09 pm

scrudu wrote:Erik84: Just to point out, that Irish citizens who marry non-EU nationals, are in a worse situation than other EU citizens who marry non-EU nationals. There is no "right" to residence in Ireland based on marriage to an Irish citizen, so any application for residency by a non-EU spouse, can be refused (check out shellylooney's posts for an example of this). Although the Irish constitution "pledges itself to guard with special care the institution of Marriage, on which the Family is founded, and to protect it against attack", this is not carried over in to Irish laws for immigration.
.

And you are very wrong here as I have friends who bypassed yuor theory - She - Irish, him - South African, got married 2 months after me - Italian and my husband - South African. My friend got his spousal visa over the counter - no need to wait, done there and then. Us.....still waiting.

scrudu · Post by **scrudu** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:13 pm

Babsie: In the case you refer to, the non-EU spouse was from a country on Irelands list of "no entry visa required". They circumvent the route I described as they are legally allow enter the country without a visa. The routes I described are true for all other non-EU spouses.

Babsie · Post by **Babsie** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:14 pm

scrudu wrote:Babsie: In the case you refer to, the non-EU spouse was from a country on Irelands list of "no entry visa required". They circumvent the route I described as they are legally allow enter the country without a visa. The routes I described are true for all other non-EU spouses.

But we're both (as in both couples) residing in Ireland before we got married. I'm here over 10 years now and my husband is here 6.
So is this rejection purely for couples who entered Ireland after they got married?

dsab85 · Post by **dsab85** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:55 pm

I have been living here for slightly more then 6 years. We are now married for just under year. We were engaged for a long time, but as my wife's familiy (rightly) insited that she would finish her Executive Master Degree first we had to wait with the wedding.

Before we got married she had been here several times (with me inviting her), as well as visting other EU countries with me, parts of Asia and the US. We can def. prove that we are a legitimate couple, and I believe we proved that with the EU1 application.

I guess there is nothing that can be done now. We sent the appeal today, and will have to wait for the outcome of the court case now.

scrudu · Post by **scrudu** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:10 pm

No, it's not just for couples who enter after marrying. I was in the situation that I returned to Ireland with my fiancee who was only allowed enter on a Tourist visa as he was on the Visa Required List. We married while he was on his 2nd tourist visa, he then had to return home to apply for a spouse visa to return, as an application made from within the country would have taken 16-18 months. The same would apply to a non-EU national (on visa required list) who is here on work permit/auth. The OTC procedure would have applied if he had come from another non-EU country (e.g. South Africa)! Madness really.

As for your case, I presume you have long-term residency (or even Permission to Remain without condition as to time) at this stage? Does your husband? I would have thought that there were different rules for long-term residents? Have you checked up on the rights of Long-Term residents to see if they differ?

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:26 pm

If you are a European citizen living in Ireland, your embassy in Dublin is there (partially) to represent your interests. Consider writing a polite letter to the ambassador and explain your situation and ask for assistance. The first few letters will likely (or surely) be ignored, but if there is a steady trickle, they will start to get noticed. If you get no response, send the same letter to the Irish Desk of the foreign ministry in your home country.

Also consider writing to your personal political representative in your home country (your â€œMPâ€

Babsie · Post by **Babsie** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:30 pm

Hi Scrudu, well I'm European, born in Italy, resident there for 20 years and then moved here, enrolled at the embassy here to be recognised as being an Italian Residing abroad, so my passport and national IDs both say that I'm resident here in Dublin (not sure what you were ferring to about long term residency???) My husband is on a work permit and has been for the past 5 years now.
He's been living here for nearly 6 years and I have been here for over 10.
We married last May in Italy. So do we fall under this case?

scrudu · Post by **scrudu** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:51 pm

Babsie: If you have legally residing (and worked i think) in Ireland for more than 5 years can apply to the Immigration Division of the DOJ for "Long Term Residency". Normally there isn't a big benefit to it if you are a European citizen, as your EU citizenship confers the same rights on you anyway. If you have resided for 8 years, you can apply for "Permission to Remain without condition as to time" which confers more rights, basically that you won't have to apply for "Permission to remain" again.

These 2 states are useful for immigrants as they confer more rights than Work Permits/Visa/Auths etc. They are especially useful if the immigrant doesn't wish to take Irish citizenship. Whether you decide to or not, your husband (as a non-EU citizen) should definitely apply for Long Term Residency while here. Check out marialear's posts for details. I think it's currently taking upwards of 6 months to process such applications though

I dont know for sure, but I would have thought that persons granted these Residence Permits would be considered as "similar to Irish citizens"? It's worth calling the DOJ to ask about it.

Babsie · Post by **Babsie** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:55 pm

NO I'm sorry, our of principle I will not do this.
I'm EU, EU members can freely move within the EU and work in any of the member states. So why does the DOJ think that I should apply for this long term residency? So they can no doubt get some more money out of us?
I'm here 0ver 10 years, regularly paying tax for the same amount of time, so why is a title "long term resident" going to change the situation we're in?
And at no stage was my husband told to apply for long term residency, infact when he inquired about this (seeing it mentioned on the forum) no one seemed to know what he was talking about.
I'm sorry, I'm bitter today but I cannot accept that this is just the way it is and good luck.

scrudu · Post by **scrudu** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:01 pm

Babsie: Under EU Law, you as an EU citizen would not have to pay for any application to the DOJ. Nor would your husband as the spouse of an EU citizen.

As I said, the benefits are more clear for a non-EU immigrant, as having LTR means the immigrant no longer requires work permits/visa/auths. So a very clear benefit for your husband.

As for no-one "telling your husband", I think you'll find this is the case with all immigration rules. The onus is on you to find out the information. You can find details about LTR at
http://www.justice.ie/80256E01003A21A5/ ... ission.pdf
http://www.emigrantadvice.ie/EA%20-%20P ... 202006.pdf
http://www.immigrantcouncil.ie/factsheets/en/res.pdf

Babsie · Post by **Babsie** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:15 pm

scrudu wrote: As for no-one "telling your husband", I think you'll find this is the case with all immigration rules. The onus is on you to find out the information. You can find details about LTR at
http://www.justice.ie/80256E01003A21A5/ ... ission.pdf
http://www.emigrantadvice.ie/EA%20-%20P ... 202006.pdf
http://www.immigrantcouncil.ie/factsheets/en/res.pdf

And find that they don't proactively tell you about them, but that when you inquire about them, they themselves aren't able to answer your questions, I find thata bit much now.
Anyway enough with the rant now!

joesoap101 · Post by **joesoap101** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:15 pm

scrudu wrote:The OTC procedure would have applied if he had come from another non-EU country (e.g. South Africa)! Madness really.

This qualification is a rather big generalisation. There are in fact not that many non-EU countries who do not require a tourist visa for Ireland.

I understand that you have a chip on your shoulder because Indonesians require a visa, but I suggest you get rid of this 'chip' and accept that the countries who are on the non-visa required list (for the most part) are there for a reason and should any of them abuse the immigration system in Ireland they will be removed.

Mentioning say Nicaragua, or El Salvador as being non-visa required nationals and benefiting from the OTC procedure whould've made more sense but I've realised that your not one for talking much sense.

Static · Post by **Static** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:05 pm

joesoap.. what is OTC?? and how is South Africa relevant to this? I am in a flat panic about all this and happen to come from South Africa.

joesoap101 · Post by **joesoap101** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:48 pm

OTC usually implies over the counter. Many citizens of non-EU countries who do not require a tourist visa can enter Ireland and present themselves to the GNIB and obtain their permission to remain. However many people on this forum have pointed out that they were sent away by the GNIB and that they were given incorrect information.

Although the situation is rediculous, I would suggest that while you wait for the court case and/or waiting for a residence permit to issue to you that you seek employment, emphasising to the employer that because you are a family member of an EU citizen that you are entitled to work in Ireland but that you would have to complete one formality- the spousal work permit application. When they offer you a job, fill out the form, sign it, have your new employer sign it and send it off. This will allow you to work while you wait for the mess to be sorted out.

It would appear that you would have the right to work without applying for this permit according to the directive, so if you're brave enough to take the risk, you could work without obtaining the permit.

Static, seeing that youre from South Africa I would just look for work, there are approximately 7700 south africans living in Ireland, finding work might be one of the easier options until the DOJ get told what they already know- that they are wrong!

Static · Post by **Static** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:55 pm

Thanks Joesoap.. I am going for a 2nd interview with a company tomorrow.... will post if I have any news

scrudu · Post by **scrudu** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:41 am

There are in fact not that many non-EU countries who do not require a tourist visa for Ireland.

There are upwards of 70 countries on the list of those who do not require a visa to enter Ireland. This list is similar to the list used in the UK.

the countries who are on the non-visa required list (for the most part) are there for a reason

I think you would do well to study a little more why countries appear on such lists and why others dont. A good discussion on this topic is already on this forum. I won't bother to repeat it.

and should any of them abuse the immigration system in Ireland they will be removed.

This applies to ANY non-Irish citizen who abuses the Irish Immigration system. As far as I know this applies to pretty much every other country with an immigration system.

Mentioning say Nicaragua, or El Salvador as being non-visa required nationals and benefiting from the OTC procedure whould've made more sense but I've realised that your not one for talking much sense.

To start discussing why particular countries are on the list would be to veer way off course of the topic, namely "EU 1 - Has anyone got a response in the last 4 weeks?"

Get a life joesoap101! Do you really have nothing better to do than join in in threads and posting unhelpful, unrelated and defamatory comments ?

jack_in_the box · Post by **jack_in_the box** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:10 pm

joesoap101 wrote: Although the situation is rediculous, I would suggest that while you wait for the court case and/or waiting for a residence permit to issue to you that you seek employment, emphasising to the employer that because you are a family member of an EU citizen that you are entitled to work in Ireland but that you would have to complete one formality- the spousal work permit application. When they offer you a job, fill out the form, sign it, have your new employer sign it and send it off. This will allow you to work while you wait for the mess to be sorted out.
It would appear that you would have the right to work without applying for this permit according to the directive, so if you're brave enough to take the risk, you could work without obtaining the permit.

Just wanted to stress the fact that the DOJ & DETE do not actually allow non-EU members to work if you don't have a workpermit. Or at least this is what I have been advised by the DETE & DOJ.
I guess they might possibly process the application quicker if you're married to an EU National. But I'm yet to see this.
So if any of you had luck with this please let me know so I can apply for workpermit number 7.

joesoap101 · Post by **joesoap101** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:26 pm

If you read my post properly you would've realised that I said that it would appear from the DIRECTIVE that you have the right to work without a permit, not whether the DOJ or DETE allow it. The DOJ is supposed to issue residence cards to family members of EU citizens confirming the right they already have, so whether you have the residence card or not you still have the right. Obviously the DOJ is not interpreting the directive in this way.

Scrudu, my comments are a direct response to your ignorance. You should check the definition of defamatory because you clearly don't understand what it means.

jack_in_the box if you are about to apply for a 7th work permit you must have breached immigration rules at some stage because most people in your position would be well on their way to obtaining Irish citizenship. The option was also open to you to apply for Long Term Residency after 5 years removing the requirement to obtain employment permits. Have you applied for LTR?

Post by **archigabe** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:40 pm

I understand that you have a chip on your shoulder because Indonesians require a visa, but I suggest you get rid of this 'chip' and accept that the countries who are on the non-visa required list (for the most part) are there for a reason and should any of them abuse the immigration system in Ireland they will be removed

I hope we can stay away from personal comments and stick to the topic under discussion.

Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

EU 1 - Has anyone got a response in the last 4 weeks?