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adindas
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Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:04 pm

Post by adindas » Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:55 pm

OL7MAX wrote:The #1 factor in checking that flow is quality of border control... .
Your statementis contadictiry with what you mentioned before.
This is your stetements.
OL7MAX wrote: Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:13 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you know that? It's commonly accepted that the majority are overstayers (i.e. came on completely legal documents)

.
You mentioned before that majority come with legal document and then become overstayers. So Where is the point to guard the border control if they enter with legal documents ?

Is there anyway in the UK you could find out who are overstayers :roll:
consdiering a very tight procedure of DPA ?

Adindas


OL7MAX wrote:
You're missing the fact that an amnesty would just encourage another 500,000 or so to sneak in and wait around for the next "amnesty".

Docterror
Senior Member
Posts: 950
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:30 pm
Location: Stoke-on-trent, UK
United Kingdom

Post by Docterror » Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:03 am

OL7MAX wrote:That is conjecture. At least the assumption that all of them will move to other jobs is conjecture and almost impossible to accept as the likely scenario. Some will move, yes, but many who are doing those jobs are doing them not just because they are "undocumented". Many of them have NI numbers etc., and can pass off as authentic legal workers. Others can (and do) use fradulent documents. There are several good reasons why some of them will continue to do those jobs even after an amnesty e.g. unsocial work pays better. First gen immigrants (Ugandan Indian newsagents/marketstall owners?) are more willing to sacrifice social life for a more secure financial future. Secondly, lack of language/education/other skills will confine some to similar jobs to what they are doing now. Bear in mind that people like me didn't need an ILR stamp to break out of low paid work: I don't even have an N.I. number. Those that can break out have already likely broken out of that type of work. But, yes, there will be some small effect, especially in the below minimum wage market.
Let us break down the different classes that you have mentioned.

The ones who uses fake NI numbers and fraudulant documents to pass of as legal will already be in the jobs that they want and so they might not change. But if they are using fake NIs, they are already paying taxes, whether it be under a dead person's name or in some other way. I do not know anyone with a fraudulant document yet, but as far as the government is concerned how can they add to the treasury? Also an amnesty to this category is a way of saying "talk to you" to all the legal immigrants who was dumb enough to follow the rules and attain their status legally.

Unsocial work may pay better. But legalising their stay will mean demands for better wages as currently they will definitely be getting way less than the minimum wages and if they get paid more, then we are back to the bankrupcy CAs rubbing their hands in glee. Alternatively, once they are legal, they can leave their jobs and get the same wages, if not better, doing pleasant and sociable jobs which will create a vacuum that will have to be filled by more unauthorised immigrants.

Almost the same can be said of the unskilled ones and the ones without language abilities, but even if they decide to learn something new once they have the choice, this is the group I see with the highest possibility of leaving their current jobs.

If any of the unauthorised immigrants have broken free out of the low paid job it is inspite of all this restrictions and it would not be prudent to consider that all the ones who wanted to escape has already done so.
In the second choice the UK stands to gain financially but it does require an amnesty to get them to come out of the woodwork. Downside: Bringing them into the system imposes costs as they become eligible for benefits etc (in addition to NHS treatment and other stuff they get for "free" without contributing) but the demographics of the undocumented migrant population is its forte:
- Their average age is young (the UK needs workers to fuel pensions).
- Their average health is good (less demands on NHS partly because they are young).
- The work ethos is proven high (less demands on benefits).
Again as pointed out earlier, there are really no benefits that can be obtained by an unauthorised immigrant, unless it was obtained by the incompetence of the officials involved of which the NHS is a good one in point. Changes for these should be made in the implementation of stricter rules so that they cannot be fools of easily. Other than the taxes, I fail to see a big benefit to the UK in terms of the economy.

Moreover, these unauthorised immigrants will grow old and then will be come reliant on the benefits of the state whether it be the NHS or pensions etc. Also if given access to benefits like Jobseekers Allowance or Disabilty Allowance, I really would doubt that their work ethos to remain just as zealous as knowing that they must work to make a livelihood. Some might maintain it, while some will not. Taking all this into account I think its is more beneficial to the government to stick to your first choice and have the option of being able to get the unauthorised immigrants when their purpose here is done.

I do not doubt that your intentions of wanting to stay with your family is real and that you have indeed genuine ties to the UK which makes it hard for you to leave the UK. But the rules in place to curb all this is a necessity so that the unauthorised immigrants will not use marriage or having a British family as an excuse to legalise their stay and thus use it as an excuse to hold onto this country as long as possible.

Also I believe that the 14 year concession given to illegal immigrants by the Home Office is a great way of keeping the ones whom they genuinely believe have been here long enough to grow real roots to the UK.
The #1 factor in checking that flow is quality of border control... from actual security guards to emmigration checks/controls/records and proactive searching for overstayers
I cannot agree with you at all that the main factor in having undocumented immigrants is the lax border control. How can they know amongst the ones who are let in, which of them are going to become overstayers (the assumed majority of unauthorised immigrants)? If they were all illegal entrants, the you may have a case in point, but even then there is a limit to the efficiency of any regulating authority. But putting it all down to the incompetence of the border controls...now that is what I call conjecture.
JAJ wrote: If your argument is accepted then dangling out an "amnesty carrot" might lead to a lot more than 500k arriving in future
You're missing the fact that an amnesty would just encourage another 500,000 or so to sneak in and wait around for the next "amnesty".
My sentiments exactly! Irrespective of whether an amnesty is granted or not, illegal immigrants will always try their level best to get a foothold in the developed countries. In the hypothetical situation that every single illegal immigrant was given amnesty, what next? Do you reall ythink that there will be no more overstayers or illegal entrants after that? Where will the cycle stop? Granting clemency to the current crop of unauthorised immigrants will be seen as a green light for the future illegals to get encouragement that all they have to do is to make it to the UK by any means possible and wait so that they will also one day be given the same oppurtunities using the same arguments that are being thrown about today.
OL7MAX wrote:
JAJ wrote:Should the United Kingdom have the right to determine who comes to the United Kingdom and who has a right to remain?
No, of course not, that right should vest with the immigrants themselves!
So, its the immigrants who should decide whether they should have the right to remain in the UK or not and not the British government! Terrific..! What more can I say?

I really do not think there is any sense in me debating anymore about all this. I still have not changed my mind a lot since I entered and in case I see an interesting point I will lend my opinion to it.
Jabi

OL7MAX
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Post by OL7MAX » Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:44 am

(contradiction.... many come on visas and overstay.... it's mainly a problem with border control)
It's because I anticipated some would take a literal meaning that I took the trouble to explain the context of "border control" to include "actual security guards ... emmigration checks/controls/records and proactive searching for overstayers". You really should learn to read posts before commenting on them.
So, its the immigrants who should decide whether they should have the right to remain in the UK or not and not the British government! Terrific..! What more can I say?
Sarcasm, old chap, it's very British. Enlighted self-interest refers to Britain deciding which cases are in its own interest to make legal.

Docterror, your problem is that while you try to see a balanced view you think of an amnesty as an unconditional amnesty (even if you don't use the words). How about if it was a special clemency for a very select few individuals most deserving of compassion?

First, let me point out that I have nothing to gain personally from any amnesty. Secondly, you really have to fight the efforts of the spin that tries to associate amnesty with unconditional amnesty. There is no country in the develped world that has given an unconditional amnesty (in recorded history, AFAIK, IANAL etc). There is no way the UK would ever grant an unconditional amnesty. Nobody in their right minds would ask for an unconditional amnesty. Violent criminals, those who came here intending to deceive border control, people with known terrorist links etc., etc., are just a few who would normally be excluded.
Let us break down the different classes that you have mentioned.
I like that. Let's look at some specific situations and see whether you'd be inclined to view favourably any "special concession". This is but a small sample of the many, many categories currently bundled under "illegal immigrants".

1. The woman who's been here for 9 years and will qualify for ILR next year but she just lost her husband who was killed in action fighting for Britain and therefore has no grounds to continue staying here. Yes/No
2. The 45 yr old school headmaster who came here as a 15 yr old refugee and has now been here 30 years. He can't claim under the 14 yr rule because of a technicality.
3. A grandmother who has been here all her life but didn't realise that she missed a deadline 60 years ago for submission of some minor paperwork and is therefore technially an illegal immigrant.
4. A person who has so much of money that he'd be an asset to the UK and deporting him would involve losing several hundreds of millions of pounds per year (not me by any stretch!). Assume he's not a disruptive character like Al Fayed.
5. The only neurosurgeon in the UK (in his speciality) who is such a brilliant doctor, researcher and scientist that he is a bit absent minded and forgot to renew his visa in time and therefore became illegal and unable to apply for ILR under current law.

Assume all of those cases to be true as described and with no complicating factors. If I were PM I'd go for 1. Yes 2. Yes 3. Yes 4. Yes and 5. Yes

Would you?

adindas
Member
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:04 pm

Definiton of Illegal Immigration

Post by adindas » Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:28 pm

refers to migration across national borders in a way that violates the immigration laws of the destination country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration

So I think will be inapproproate if we tries to change it with other term such us "undocumented, etc".

Adindas

OL7MAX
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Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:22 pm

Post by OL7MAX » Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:53 pm

I like that. It's hugely hilarious. Two hours before you posted that the Wikipedia page said (and still does at 5.53)
Illegal cheese refers to migration across national borders in a way that violates the immigration laws of the destination country
Don't worry about changing it to "undocumented" ... or anything else. It's a wiki for goodness sake. It invites you to be bold! Camembert, anyone?

adindas
Member
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:04 pm

Falsify passpot

Post by adindas » Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:53 pm

THose who do not believe my previous postings that many illiegal immigarnts could work in the uk could work becasue they falsify their passport, id, etc, read this.

How could you belive people who already cheat on the first instance

Adindas


Source BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6169678.stm

Me and my passports

Shahida at UK Customs


Read Shahida's story of what happened
Serious questions have been raised over Britain's border security after a BBC journalist entered the UK twice on fake and stolen passports.
Shahida Tulaganova obtained 20 illegal passports - each from an EU country, including the UK - within months.

Those in the trade told her to travel via sea or bus, saying port security was less stringent than airports.

The Home Office said it works closely with the EU to tackle the crime, taking the issue of false documents seriously.

In 2004, 8,285 fraudulent documents were detected at UK ports of entry, according to Home Office figures.

Entering the UK on a fake or stolen passport carries a maximum sentence of 10 years in jail, while making a false statement to obtain a passport can lead to a prison sentence of up to two years.

Shahida travelled across Europe to obtain her false documents for her Panorama investigation.

They ranged in price from just #250 to more than #1,500. Some were provided within several days, while others took weeks.

She found her first illegal passport dealer in the centre of London - through an advertisement in a Russian language newspaper.

The dealer - Henry - provided her with a genuine Czech passport, by getting someone who looked like her to apply for one, using her photo.

Forgery detection

Shahida's investigation poses questions over the number of non-EU nationals entering Britain on illegal passports. She uses Poland as an example.

"Since [Poland] country joined the EU less than two years ago a quarter of a million Poles have left and legally registered for work in Britain," she says.

"But if my contacts are right, many of these may not have been Poles at all, but illegal immigrants using fake passports."

SHAHIDA'S PASSPORTS
UK, Germany
France, Italy
Sweden, Denmark
Finland, Estonia
Netherlands, Belgium
Spain, Portugal
Greece, Slovenia
Czech Republic, Poland
Austria, Slovakia
Lithuania, Latvia

Shahida enters Britain via boat - from Spain to Portsmouth - on a fake Latvian passport, and then later on the Eurostar using a stolen Estonian passport.

Despite information on stolen passports being registered to a central Interpol database, her Estonian passport goes undetected.

The Home Office says there is a "comprehensive bilateral exchange of information between member states regarding the issue of lost and stolen EU passports".

It maintains that in addition to this, all immigration officers are highly trained in identifying false documents.

"All our immigration officers at British ports are trained in forgery detection techniques and have access to specialist forgery detection equipment," a spokesperson said.

The government has also introduced biometric e-passports with images securely stored inside chips, in an attempt to combat forgery and improve the security of British passports.


Panorama: My Fake Passports and Me was broadcast on Monday, 4 December, 2006 at 2100 GMT on BBC One
Last edited by adindas on Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

adindas
Member
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:04 pm

Another examplke of Cheating

Post by adindas » Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:00 pm

My friend (especially OL7MAX) who need evidence.

What are U going to say about this evidence.
Now, could you believe waht I said before many could work because they forge their documents, forge document is a serious crime both who offer that and those who bought them??
I could find many more a postings like this if you want.

That is why I believe that to trial before the court is Paramount to differentiate those who are genuine and honest or have become a victim. Rather than those who just make up their stories.

Story 1 Just statistical data evidence of forge documents whaich have been found how about which have not been found ?
"They included 1,335 fake passports.. and ID cards and 2,000 credit cards

" .. Offences like yours and conspiracies like yours do massive disservice to the thousands of genuine immigrants and asylum seekers by the flooding of this country with illegal immigrants who doubtless have paid considerable sums of money to criminal gangs abroad ..."
source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3493998.stm



Story 2

"My fake passport into Britain ...
"I discovered the staggering scale of the scandal when I bought three forged passports for £1,200 each from an African middleman named Jonathan. Handing over the money in cash with three pictures of myself taken at a supermarket photo-booth, I told him my height, age and the new name I wanted put on the documents. Two days later, the three fake passports — Italian, French and Portuguese — were delivered to me in a white envelope at a wine bar near King's Cross railway station. In order to test how easily they could be used to gain entry into Britain, I sent the Italian passport (number 354167F) by post to a friend's address in northern France where I planned to collect it and then come back into the country. .. They buy a bogus EU passport from London, which is then sent to a box number at one of the port's post offices for them to pick up a day or two later. "
Source
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1770
How could you believe people who already cheat on the first instance


Story 3
"A group of illegal immigrants tried to get into Britain disguised as nuns and priests, a court has heard.
The five men and three women managed to get past immigration officials, but were stopped by customs officers at Dover
Martin Griffiths, prosecuting, said the group of nuns and priests had fake passports . "
Source
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2412249.stm

Adindas
Last edited by adindas on Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:24 pm, edited 16 times in total.

adindas
Member
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:04 pm

See Arguments from migrationwatchuk.org

Post by adindas » Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:14 pm

The follwowing are arguments from migrationwatchuk.org based on research.

Adindas
I believe in Justice, Honesty and fair value.

Source
http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/Briefin ... grants.asp


An amnesty for illegal immigrants?

Summary
1. An amnesty for illegal immigrants in Britain should be rejected because:

- it is wrong in principle to reward illegal behaviour.
- amnesties have demonstrably failed in other EU countries and are strongly opposed by the French and German governments. In the past 20 years Italy has granted five amnesties and Spain six. The only effect has been growing numbers of applicants and increased pressure on the borders.
- they are extremely expensive for the tax payer. The IPPR claims ignored the additional costs. The net cost to the UK, on the basis of their own crude calculation, would be between 0.6 and 1 billion.
- Those granted amnesty would soon be replaced by others willing to work at or below the minimum wage.
- it would be much more effective to tighten access to the labour market and prevent fraudulent access to the welfare state.
- this would deter new arrivals and encourage illegal immigrants already here to return home.

2. A policy approach which made a serious effort to tighten up conditions for illegal immigrants in Britain would, over time, reduce the number coming here and encourage those already here to leave of their own accord.

Introduction
3. It is sometimes suggested that the way to deal with the growing number of illegal immigrants in the UK is to offer them an amnesty. This paper examines the experience of the UK and Europe and suggests an alternative approach.

The scale of the problem in the UK
4. Accurate numbers are, by definition, unobtainable but it is possible to estimate the order of magnitude. In January 2005 the Home Office issued a report which put the size of the illegal population of the UK at between 310,000 and 570,000 with a central estimate of 430,000. [1]

5. This estimate was based on the 2001 census and thus did not include the large number of asylum seekers whose applications were rejected in the years 2002 - 4. Nor did it include the UK born children of illegal immigrants.

6. Taking these two factors into account, Migrationwatch estimated that the population of unauthorised migrants in 2005 was in the range 515,000 - 870,000 with a central estimate of 670,000. However, other factors pointed towards the upper end of this range. [2]

Previous amnesties in the UK
7. In recent years there have been three amnesties in Britain [3], all of which applied to failed asylum seekers rather than to those who had entered illegally or overstayed their visas. In 1993/4 the Conservative Government granted "Exceptional Leave to Remain (ELR)" to 14,785 applicants involving 32,000 adults.[4] ELR has now been replaced by Humanitarian Protection and Discretionary Leave. Humanitarian Protection is granted when the asylum applicant does not qualify for refugee status under the terms of the UNCR but does qualify under the rather wider provisions of the European Convention on Human Rights. Discretionary Leave cases, on the other hand, are cases where the applicant does not qualify as a refugee under either convention. In practice, those granted either form of leave are almost invariably granted settlement eventually so that its grant can be regarded as, effectively, an amnesty. This amnesty was not revealed to the public at the time but will have become well known to the immigrant community and their lawyers.

8. In 1999/2000, the Labour Government granted Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR) to 21,000 applicants involving 29,200 people altogether, under what was described as a "backlog clearance exercise". ILR is, effectively, settlement.

9. On 24 October 2003 the Government announced that ILR would be granted to those families which had sought asylum in the UK before 2 October 2000, had children before that date and who had experienced delays in the system. Those who had committed a criminal offence or lodged multiple asylum applications were excluded. The Government appears to have concluded that these applicants would have had grounds for appeal against removal on human rights grounds. They claimed that the amnesty would save taxpayers support costs and legal costs. Announcing the measure, Mr Blunkett said that it would involve 15,000 families but it was not known exactly how many adults and children would be covered [5].

10. The numbers involved turn out to be much larger. 53,435 cases were identified for consideration as at 31 March 2005 [6] . By the end of 2005, 70,135 applicants and dependants had been granted indefinite leave to remain (settlement) with 20,000 cases still to be decided [7].

11. In January 2004 the Home Affairs Select Committee of the House of Commons reviewed these amnesties and concluded that:[8]

Amnesties set up a vicious circle which should be broken by discouragement of unfounded claims, fast and efficient processing of those claims when made, and rapid removals when claims have failed.

The cost to the taxpayer
12. A person granted ILR is, by the same token, granted full access to the welfare state. This includes education, health, housing and welfare benefits. Once ILR has been granted the person can bring in further dependants and can also apply for citizenship after five years residence in the UK. Thus the apparently neutral term, Indefinite Leave to Remain, is in practice a bonanza for an illegal immigrant. The cost to the taxpayer is very substantial, offset to some extent by the contribution which the person concerned might make to the economy.

Experience in the EU
13. In their report to the Home Office on methods of sizing illegal populations, Professor John Salt and others examined the amnesties offered by EU countries over the past 20 years.[9] Belgium and Greece have implemented one amnesty each. France and Portugal have offered two amnesties. Italy has conducted five and Spain six amnesties with the following results:

Italy
1987/88 1990 1996 1998 2002
119,000 235,000 259,000 308,000 700,000

Spain
1985/86 1991 1996 2000 2001 2005
44,000 135,000 21,000 127,000 314,000 700,000

14. It will be apparent from the experience of Italy and Spain that granting amnesties certainly does not reduce the number of illegal immigrants. Indeed, it may very well encourage further illegal immigration. It is noteworthy that the Spanish enclaves in North Africa came under severe pressure shortly after the major Spanish amnesty in February 2004.

15. It is relevant to the UK that those granted amnesty in the EU will eventually obtain documents that will permit them to travel to Britain. In Spain, anyone who has held a resident permit for ten years can apply for Spanish nationality; for nationals of Latin American countries and the Philippines, the qualifying period is only two years.

16. The French have drawn their own conclusions. In May 2005, the then Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin said that further amnesties for illegal immigrants were "completely out of the question". He added that Paris considered that previous mass amnesties in France in 1981 and 1997 had encouraged further waves of illegal immigration.[10] Each of those amnesties was extended to about 150,000 applicants.

17. The Germans are also opposed to such amnesties. Germany's Interior Minister said on 9 October 2005 that "Wide ranging campaigns to legalise immigrants such as in Spain mean more illegal immigrants are drawn to Europe. In the long term, immigration and refugee problems cannot be solved with unilateral action, but only with European and international co-operation." [11]

The IPPR proposal
18. On 31 March 2006 the IPPR issued a paper calling for irregular migrants already in the UK to be issued with three year work permits and an ID card. Their families would be allowed to remain with them and they could seek further renewal provided that they learned English and had no criminal convictions. This procedure would lead to settlement (otherwise there would be little purpose in embarking on it) and it amounts to an amnesty in all but name.

19. It was claimed that this step would net the Treasury around 1bn a year. This claim is, to say the least, disingenuous. The figure is calculated on the assumption that, once regularised, illegals will earn on average 50% more than the minimum wage and it is a simple calculation of the income tax and NI contributions that would be paid as a result. This is in itself optimistic since some illegals may only be employed because they are willing to accept less than the minimum wage. However, it takes no account whatever of the extra costs to the Exchequer of an additional 0.5 million beneficiaries of the welfare state. The average cost of state benefits and services in 2003/4 was about 7,600 per head of population so on the IPPRs figure of 430,000 illegals the total cost would be 3.2 billion. Even assuming that half of these costs are already incurred (for example through use of emergency medical treatment) the additional cost of an amnesty would be 1.6 billion - well in excess of the additional tax and national insurance contributions calculated by the IPPR. Thus the net result would be an extra cost of 0.6 billion rather than a saving of 1 billion a result which accords with common sense. On the more realistic estimate of 670,000 illegals (para 5 above) the total cost would be 2.5 billion and the extra revenue about 1.5 billion with a net cost of 1 billion.

20. It was also claimed that 4.7 billion would be saved by not undertaking their forced removal. Nobody is suggesting such a course. One might just as well suggest that we can save 100 billion by not sending a man to the moon!

21. There are two major objections to the IPPR proposal. One is that it is wrong in principle to reward illegal behaviour. The other is that it has no chance of working. The report itself recognises that many illegals come to Britain and stay on to work illegally here because wage rates, even at or below the minimum wage, are much higher than in their home countries. For the same reason many come here with the help of people smugglers. There will always be unscrupulous employers willing to employ cheap labour so those regularised (at tax payers expense) will very soon be replaced by others.

Alternative approaches
22. The alternative to granting amnesties which simply encourage further illegal entry is to discourage illegal immigrants from coming and from staying. The key to this lies in the labour market since most illegal immigrants come initially to work and send money home. The record of enforcement in Britain is incredibly poor. In the period 1997 - 2003 only 9 employers were found guilty of employing an illegal immigrant. In 2004 only 3,332 illegal migrant workers were detected in Home Office operations. The Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Bill 2005 provides the Home Secretary with stronger powers to penalise employers who employ (knowingly or otherwise) individuals who are illegally in Britain. Immigration Officers will have the power to impose on the spot fines of up to 2,000 if the employer ought to have known or failed to ascertain that an employee was ineligible for work. Where it can be shown that an employer knowingly employed an illegal immigrant the maximum penalty will be two years imprisonment and/or a fine of up to 5,000. However, the effectiveness of this change in the law is undermined by the Governments admission that very few full time immigration officers will be dedicated to its enforcement.

23. A further incentive to illegal immigration is the absence of effective controls on access to the National Health Service. Furthermore, no checks whatever are made on the immigration status of children applying for places at schools. The introduction of ID cards will eventually mean that it will become much more difficult for illegal immigrants to access the welfare state. Furthermore, the introduction of embarkation controls, now planned by the government, will be an effective deterrent to overstaying provided that they are effectively enforced; this may require some adjustments to human rights law.

Conclusion
24. A policy approach which made a serious effort to tighten up conditions for illegal immigrants in Britain would, over time, reduce the number coming here and encourage those already here to leave of their own accord. American research suggests that such a policy of Attrition through enforcement can significantly reduce the size of the illegal population at reasonable cost [12]. An amnesty, on the other hand, simply makes a bad situation worse at considerable cost - as experience in Europe has amply demonstrated.

21 May 2006

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTES: [1] Home Office online report 29/05 - "Sizing the unauthorised migrant population of the UK in 2001"
[2] www.migrationwatchuk.org Briefing paper 9.15 "The illegal migrant population in the UK"
[3] On 11 April 1974, the Home Secretary announced an amnesty for Commonwealth citizens and citizens of Pakistan who entered the country illegally on or after 9 March 1968 and before 1 January 1973. The amnesty applied also to people who were refused entry by an immigration officer and then entered the country illegally before 9 March 1968. Both classes of people could apply to have their position regularised and, if evidence of their entry and subsequent residence was satisfactory, their passports were endorsed by an immigration officer to give indefinite leave to remain.
The Home Secretary further announced on 29 November 1977 (Hansard 29.11.77, Written Answers cols 125-128) that Commonwealth citizens or citizens of Pakistan whose last entry had been secured by deception before 1 January 1973 could apply to have their stay regularised, and they were dealt with similarly. (source: IND web site).
[4] Statement by Mr Blunkett, Home Secretary, reported in The Guardian on 25 October 2003
[5] The Guardian 25 October 2003
[6] HOSB 13/05 paragraph 73.
[7] House of Commons written answer 58197 Feb 2006.
[8] Times online report 26 Jan 2004
[9] Home Office on-line report 58/04 Table 5.1
[10] The Guardian 12 May 2005
[11] Reuters, Berlin 9 Oct 2005, reported in the Mirror.
[12] The American report can be found on line at http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back406.html
Last edited by adindas on Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

adindas
Member
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:04 pm

Story of forge documents

Post by adindas » Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:30 pm

This is other examples of stories of forge documents.
How could you believe people who already cheat in the first instance


Adindas
I believe in Justice, Honesty and Fair value.

Source
http://forums.gumtree.com/about61591-0-asc-50.html


Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:35 am
"I know someone who rents rooms to a bunch of Algerians. Most of them are claiming benefits in at least two or three different names. Their all on housing benefit and working cash in hand as cooks, barbers etc.

The problem is how do you report them to the authorities when you don't even know what their real names are? All you can do is tell the authorities where they live which I have done but as far as I'm aware it's come to nothing"


Another story
Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:49 pm
"I know someone working in a housing office, who has to provide homes to women coming in claiming they are "abused wives" (so they go to the top of the line), even though they have clearly forged documents to be here. Protocol calls for them to be reported to the Imigration office - think there has ever been one follow up, in the years I've been here? Haha!!

OL7MAX
Member of Standing
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Post by OL7MAX » Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:40 pm

You have taken a lot of time and trouble to prove that there are some people who are illegal immigrants by intent. Great! Except that you didn't need to do that at all. I've never disputed that some people use false documents. In fact I've stated myself that some undocumented migrants are illegal immigrants in the true sense of the word. No dispute there so there's nothing really to discuss here anymore? :)

Dawie
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Post by Dawie » Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:05 pm

100 years ago Britain had no illegal immigrant problem. Why? Because 100 years there was no immigration control.

What is absolutely laughable is the way governments make laws that are utterly unenforcable, like immigration and drug laws, and then sit back and act all shocked and surprised when these laws are repeatedly broken.

My honest view is that is every human being has the God-given right to go whereever he chooses on this planet. No government should have the right to tell us where we can or cannot go. Trying to control immigration is like trying to toy with the very laws of nature. Migration is a natural animal phenomenon and one that cannot be stopped no matter how hard some governments might try.
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

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Post by Docterror » Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:24 pm

Dawie wrote:100 years ago Britain had no illegal immigrant problem. Why? Because 100 years there was no immigration control
The world is not quite as mobile then as it is right now.
What is absolutely laughable is the way governments make laws that are utterly unenforcable, like immigration and drug laws, and then sit back and act all shocked and surprised when these laws are repeatedly broken.
I honestly don't think these laws were enacted thinking that they will be 100% foolproof in execution. A lot of these goverments expect a good amount of failure and if the governments show that they are surprised, then it is just for the show of it. Also, if they really were so concerned with it they would tighten and introduce alternative methods to curb it and even then, like every law it will not be totally enforcable.
Migration is a natural animal phenomenon and one that cannot be stopped no matter how hard some governments might try.
They might not be able to entirely stop it, but they sure can put obstacles that would reduce it significantly.
Trying to control immigration is like trying to toy with the very laws of nature.
Some will tell you the exact same thing about having to wear clothes to work.
Jabi

adindas
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Post by adindas » Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:03 pm

It is not some but great number who are illegal immigrants by intent. The evidence that I have shown is the people who get caught. Imagine how many out there are not detected.

Also as you metion before that majority are overstayers.
How could they work in the UK ???, given the above fact I have mentined before highly probability, with fake documents..

Adindas


How do you know that? It's commonly accepted that the majority are overstayers (i.e. came on completely legal documents).
OL7MAX wrote:You have taken a lot of time and trouble to prove that there are some people who are illegal immigrants by intent. Great! Except that you didn't need to do that at all. I've never disputed that some people use false documents. In fact I've stated myself that some undocumented migrants are illegal immigrants in the true sense of the word. No dispute there so there's nothing really to discuss here anymore? :)

OL7MAX
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Post by OL7MAX » Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:07 pm

I've not used a single fake document in 14 years of living here. You obviously have no clue how things work for undocumented immigrants. Why on earth would somebody who's working illegally need to fake any documents? :?

Given that you accept the majority are overstayers...
1. The woman who's been here for 9 years and will qualify for ILR next year but she just lost her husband who was killed in action fighting for Britain and therefore has no grounds to continue staying here. Yes/No
2. The 45 yr old school headmaster who came here as a 15 yr old refugee and has now been here 30 years. He can't claim under the 14 yr rule because of a technicality.
3. A grandmother who has been here all her life but didn't realise that she missed a deadline 60 years ago for submission of some minor paperwork and is therefore technically an illegal immigrant.
4. A person who has so much of money that he'd be an asset to the UK and deporting him would involve losing several hundreds of millions of pounds per year (not me by any stretch!). Assume he's not a disruptive character like Al Fayed.
5. The only neurosurgeon in the UK (in his speciality) who is such a brilliant doctor, researcher and scientist that he is a bit absent minded and forgot to renew his visa in time and therefore became illegal and unable to apply for ILR under current law.

Assume all of those cases to be true as described and with no complicating factors. If I were PM I'd go for 1. Yes 2. Yes 3. Yes 4. Yes and 5. Yes
You've answered no to 1. What do you say to 2-5?

adindas
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Post by adindas » Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:19 pm

OL7MAX

Certainly, some are working illegally do not neet to fake their documents and therefore be exploited e.g chinese cokler pickers, sex slaves. But it has been proven that these people have been treated as victims by UK justice system.

But [ismart people are not going to let this happen, they are not stupid to be exploited. They have family, friends, relatives who are ready to help them to get fake documents and therefore get the job easily. They enter with formal documents.

OL7MAX, I have never said that you fake your documents. I have read many of your posting ,including your story and my believe is that your case is genuine. But how many undocumented immigrants have the same case like you ???.

It is reasonable to believe that many overstayers have already have criminal intents to become overstayers. They know that once they become overtayers they easily get legal paper work. You have seen the fact that it is very easy and quite cheap to get formal paper in the UK.

For this I have shown you a lot of evidence If you you said otherwise prove it.

Adindas

OL7MAX wrote:I've not used a single fake document in 14 years of living here. You obviously have no clue how things work for undocumented immigrants. Why on earth would somebody who's working illegally need to fake any documents?

?

Rawling
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Post by Rawling » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:56 am

Adindas
Some of your sources you have quoted like daily mail and migration watch have clear agenda. That agenda is against migrants legal or otherwise. Few weeks ago migration watch says the contribution of migrants is equivalent to mars bars. That is meant to say about 60p per immigrants. The really intention of organization like migration watch is stop migration to UK.

For the likes of daily mail and the sun if you put immigrants together with crime your guarantee to increase the sale circulation of the newspaper. The really don't care to put balance view of the situation.

Let assume for the sake of argument government get rid of all undocumented immigrants to places like Iraq, Zimbabwe, and people who have been here 8 or 10 years. Children who have born here but their parents got no paper, separate husband from wife etc. Who do you think will be next target for these organizations? naturally legal migrants.
So if your are immigrants yourself you need to be careful about quoting them because their argument are biased. Trying to quote something more neutral.

I wonder why you like the word illegal immigrants very much i think it is because it dehumanize people with its negative connotation therefore make it almost impossible to have sensible debate.
People will always trying to improve their life by moving from one place to another so is all animals. Because every human being want to improve his life.

Bear in mind nobody here is advocating amnesty for criminals i mean rapists, violent offenders and the likes or uncontrolled immigration. But for the people who have been here and have got no criminal records or have comitted crimes with custodial sentence which is less than 12 month. By sorting this problem of undocumented immigrants the government will be actually taking control of the situation.

Your point about fake documents. the way to stop that is make sure there are less people who need them. That will happens only when you amnesty is offered. Economics dictate when there is demands their will always be supplies. That is the way it is. if majority of these people cannot get those fakes documents which allows them to work (about 1,000,000) what do you think will happens to the country. Just imagine all these people without work?

UK government can do like what US government is proposing of doing. All immigrants needs to register Grants them 3 years special visa after background checks for those who have got no criminal records. May be they will need to pay fine say 2000 within that 3 years. After 3 years if they have prove themselves then they should be able to apply for full citizenship.

The argument about you need people to work for less than minimum wages doesn't stuck up as there are lot of countries which survive without underclass like Scandinavian countries. Business will adjust to cope with the new realities.

What UK undocumented immigrants lacks is somebody high profile to put the case for amnesty like George Bush in US and some top democrats for sensible debate. I think if British people are well informed about the issue they will come to the right decision on how to solve this problem.
Last edited by Rawling on Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Hernancortes » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:34 pm

"If U browse all my postings I always believe in Justice, and I believe in UK justice system. "

Wow. You sound so naive. I'm sure the Menezes family has a different opinion. How about Baha Moussa the Iraqi who died in British custody in Iraq?
There a re so many miscarriages of justice in this country.
Why are prisoners who have had their convictions quashed by appellate courts - often after spending decades in incarceration- asked to reimburse the gov't for their 'stay' in prison?

The UK justice system has several flaws. Recently, the gov't announced changes to legal aid system by setting fixed payments to legal aid counsel. This will affect access to justice for many on low incomes 1.e. single mothers, refugees etc.

adindas
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Post by adindas » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:22 pm

Jes,I am naive how are you so sure about your knowledge superiority, I***ot !!!

Every system have their weakness. But in general justice system in the UK provide justice for everyone.

About Menezes family that is based on evidence that have found. It it probably not right but the decision must br based on evidence. DO not know about other exmple that you gave so can not comment it.

Because this is about immigration ammnesty topics, I suggest you raise your suggestion to UK criminal justice system

http://www.cjsonline.gov.uk/

to improve their system.

UK justice system is one of the most independent institution inthe world. for instance, the Afghan hi_jackers, Extreme preacher could stay in the UK and the government could do nothign about it.

But they coudls only work based on evidence presented.


Adindas
Excuse but U r the first person use the other language.
Hernancortes wrote:"

Wow. You sound so naive. I'm sure the Menezes family has a different opinion. How about Baha Moussa the Iraqi who died in British custody in Iraq?
There a re so many miscarriages of justice in this country.
Why are prisoners who have had their convictions quashed by appellate courts - often after spending decades in incarceration- asked to reimburse the gov't for their 'stay' in prison?

The UK justice system has several flaws. Recently, the gov't announced changes to legal aid system by setting fixed payments to legal aid counsel. This will affect access to justice for many on low incomes 1.e. single mothers, refugees etc.

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Post by Dawie » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:30 pm

Adindas, I don't what world you live in, but the one I'm familiar with isn't quite as just and fair as the one you seem to live in.

You seem to be going on incoherently about the UK criminal justice system, however I don't know what that has to do with an immigration amnesty. Immigration is a civil matter, not a criminal one. Judging from your language usage I can see English is not your home language and therefore you are clearly an immigrant or ex-immigrant yourself. I find it quite disturbing that someone in your position would take such a hard-line towards immigration and immigrants.
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

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Post by Christophe » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:03 pm

Dawie wrote:I find it quite disturbing that someone in your position would take such a hard-line towards immigration and immigrants.
This point comes up time and time again. But I don't think that one can use a person's immigration status or history to determine what that person's views on an immigration amnesty (and other immigration matters) are (in practice) or what they ought to be (in theory). In fact, the views will vary among immigrants, just as they vary among the rest of the population - and some people are more able than others to look at issues such as this (which is, after all, a public issue, even though it has very personal effects on a lot of individual people) dispassionately and without particular reference to their own, personal situation. (Such an approach has, after all, its advantages and its disadvantages, and I am not meaning to criticise adversely either the more personal approach or the more dispassionate one.)

Dawie
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Post by Dawie » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:09 pm

I believe they call it "Stockholm syndrome".
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

Christophe
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Post by Christophe » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:13 pm

Dawie wrote:I believe they call it "Stockholm syndrome".
No, that's a different thing again. In Stockholm syndrome the affected person's own, previous views are displaced by the views of the captors or aggressors. The affeted person is not, therefore, dispassionate; neither would the new views/opinions have been regarded, necessarily, as rational by the affected person before the Stockholm syndrome developed.

Hernancortes
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Post by Hernancortes » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:14 pm

"UK justice system is one of the most independent institution inthe world. for instance, the Afghan hi_jackers, Extreme preacher could stay in the UK and the government could do nothign about it."

By the same token, our justice system is also responsible for sending 'failed' asylum seekers back to Sudan, Congo, Iraq etc.

"Because this is about immigration ammnesty topics, I suggest you raise your suggestion to UK criminal justice system"

Weren't you exalting its praises in a previous post? I'm merely responding to what you wrote. Sadly, i'm having great difficulty in understanding some of your posts.

Hernancortes
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Post by Hernancortes » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:17 pm

"About Menezes family that is based on evidence that have found. It it probably not right but the decision must br based on evidence. "

:?:

Dawie
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Post by Dawie » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:20 pm

The Nazis had a similar fuzzy logic when it came to justice, and look what happened there.
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

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