UK Residence card, can I work in Ireland?

adnan01 · Post by **adnan01** » Wed May 15, 2013 7:51 am

I hope I simply get stamp and get over this pps issue. I sent them eu directive/38/ec legislation papers and annotated relevant sections that clearly shows my rights but the guy went "I understand your rights but we need stamp" .....I wish I could complain about them

dalebutt · Post by **dalebutt** » Wed May 15, 2013 7:58 am

Have you tried complaining to the people at this email address visamail@justice.ie? You could send them a message on the matter, and see if they could be of some sort of help.

IntegratedMigrant · Post by **IntegratedMigrant** » Wed May 15, 2013 8:29 am

adnan01 wrote:Thanks for your post.

I will check whether I can use this as an option. But if I exit and come back will they not let me in? If I enter with my family again? Was okay when I came first time. I just want it done quickly so that I get PPS done and then prepare for residence card properly. I will look at health insurance option from UK...thanks...any more suggestions pls let me know

It is worth checking, until you find out yourself its not possible. But verifying is highly recommended in this case. Best of luck

adnan01 · Post by **adnan01** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:39 pm

Hi Everyone,

I travelled all the way from Cork to the UK with my wife and daughter so that we could return and get the stamp again and that would get me PPS. But this time at airport they didn't give me stamp and they said I will need to apply for Residence Card and I cant work for this 90 days and then I asked how can I apply PPS and they went YOU CANT APPLY PPS EVEN as you will need to apply for Residence Card first and then apply for PPS.

How the hell am I suppose to apply for Residence Card with my wife being self-sufficient and without PPS I cant get Sickness Insurance. Also if I do manage to resolve the issue of Health insurance, when I apply Residence Card as my EEA wife being self-sufficient if I show them the only income is my job then would that create problems as airport they said I cant work and PPS people said Im working illegally here and as PER EU TREATY REGULATIONS thats not true. So what do I do? THERE IS A SECTION IN RESIDENCE CARD APPLICATION FORM ASKING FOR SELF SUFFICIENT PROOFS...CAN I SHOW THAT IM WORKING THATS WHY MY WIFE IS SELF SUFFICIENT? OR THEY WILL CREATE MORE PROBLEMS FOR US? please advice any possibilities......

adnan01 · Post by **adnan01** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:48 pm

Can someone please reply?

I am going to apply Residence Card on self sufficient basis without health insurance as visamail@justice.ie confirmed that I can apply without insurance and once I recieve registration certificate I should obtain PPS and then send health insurance details. I contacted PPS office and one of the lady I spoke to really knew what EU Law is and she said you shouldnt have get stamp and why did it take too long. I was happy to hear someone knows about law so she said she willc all back but next day same guy phoned me back saying we can process until you provide GNIB card..I cant believe it how they play with people's life....I am paying 52% tax for 4 months now and it is getting harder day by day....

nobodysperfect · Post by **nobodysperfect** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:33 am

adnan01 wrote:Can someone please reply?

I am going to apply Residence Card on self sufficient basis without health insurance as visamail@justice.ie confirmed that I can apply without insurance and once I recieve registration certificate I should obtain PPS and then send health insurance details. I contacted PPS office and one of the lady I spoke to really knew what EU Law is and she said you shouldnt have get stamp and why did it take too long. I was happy to hear someone knows about law so she said she willc all back but next day same guy phoned me back saying we can process until you provide GNIB card..I cant believe it how they play with people's life....I am paying 52% tax for 4 months now and it is getting harder day by day....

You should apply for the Residence Permit straightaway. Since you are employed in Ireland you do not need an insurance. You are legal in Ireland and allowed to work as long as your wife is practicing her treaty rights i.e. being self sufficient because of your income. Once you send in your application you are likely to receive a confirmation from GNIB, asking for more documents (that`s standard for every application I guess

) , in a couple of weeks time. Once you receive the letter you can go to the GNIB office in Dublin and get a residence card which will be valid for six months. You will be able to sort out your PPS , insurance once you have this card.
You will be glad to see a big chunk of money coming in your account as your tax return once you have your PPS sorted. So till then think the tax authorities are making you have some mandatory savings.
Dont stress too much, just send your EU FAM application ASAP.

adnan01 · Post by **adnan01** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:56 pm

Thanks for your help.

I applied for Residence Card today. I am also going to complain to Solvit because PPS office not only kept my application, they kept my wife's and daughter's application for two months. I need to apply for my daughter's school. And this guy called Brian in Cork city PPS office has no idea what is EU directive for Non-EEA family of EEA family. I sent him all the papers and annotated it, after that I phoned him and he said no we need GNIB card that's all. Interestingly PPS website doesnt even mention that GNIB card is required even for non-EEA nationals. It just says Passport OR immigration card and proof of address.

Anyway fingers crossed, I hope I will get registration certificate soon so that things can move forward. My salary is 28,000 euros with additional10,000 yearly bonus, is that enough for self-sufficient category? I have sent all the financial proofs...lets see what happens!

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:06 pm

Adnan, if you salary exceeds the level at which you would get social assistance then you are self-sufficient. Even if it is below this, self-sufficiency is a fact or it is not. Basically, if you can live on your salary without help, you are self-sufficient.

adnan01 · Post by **adnan01** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:20 am

Thanks for your reply.

Yes we are liviing on our own with no welfare assistance or anything. Also, my job contract covers health insurance for all my family but it is due to PPS I have not been able to obtain sickness insurance because in Ireland you PPS for almost everything. Health cost is covered by my employer as I can claim the amount spent on medical.

Thanks everyone...let's see how quickly they can reply.

adnan01 · Post by **adnan01** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:50 pm

Here is my story;

I have been suspended by my employer because the guy I was dealing with at PPS office called my employer and told them that I am working illegally just because I dont have STAMP 4. I told my employer that I have applied for Residence Card and I applied late because I couldn't obtain health insurance which is one of the requirment to apply as self-sufficient EEA family member but company said we wouldn't want to take risk.

I was the best performer of this quarter so they said we want to keep you and we will keep paying you salary until you recieve your Registration certficate and obtain GNIB card and they have hired a company that will deal with immigration directly on my behalf.

But this guy from Welfare office emailed me saying Non EEA family can't work until they obtain Resdince Card and because of him I am suspended. IS THIS ALL ACCORDING TO EEA DIRECTIVE?

I am lucky that my company is nice to me but I am still worried because its been only 2 weeks since I applied Residence Card and I still haven't recieved Registration certificate and if this take long my job can be in jeopardy...

.....I have reported to Solvit..but they take ages to review cases...how can I take action against this guy because he knew my company HR head and he started calling her directly stating IM ILLEGAL WORKER....

PLEASE ADVICE...

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:18 pm

adnan01,

The directive 2004/38/ec gives you the right to work, provided that your wife, an EU national, is exercising treaty rights. It is the law in Ireland, just as it is in other EU countries.

Furthermore, the directive states that you do not require any specific documentation and that you can demonstrate your entitlement to work by other means. Other means, would be for example, your marriage certificate, evidence that your spouse holds EU citizenship and evidence that they are self-sufficient. Given that most of this documentation will be with the Irish authorities, they ought to be able to allay your employer's concerns.

If your employer were to dismiss you for lack of a specific piece of documentation, it is likely that you could take a successful case against them. I mention this only to describe how strong the law is in your favour. It would be much better of course if you could be allowed to continue to work without issues.

adnan01 · Post by **adnan01** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:44 pm

Thanks EUsmileallSmile,

I have repeardetly informed this to welfare office in Cork Ireland and there is one guy who openly says to me that I am not eligible to work and I applied for PPS number (its like NI number) and they didn't finalise my application, instead this guy reported my company that im working illegally.

I dont have any complaint about my employer because they got worried and decided to take legal assistance on this matter and suspended me with salary, otherwise they can be fined upto 500k euro. This guy knows head of HR and he phoned her and told her all this. I sent him email asking on what basis you are claiming that im working illegally and following was his reply ;

Hi Adnan,

What happens between you and your employer is between you and the employer unfortunately.

The onus is on the Employer to ensure their employees are legally entitled to enter employment in the State.

At this point in time your case is with EU Treaty Rights Section Department of Justice and they are dealing with you now.

If you receive a Stamp 4: either temporary stamp 4 from EU Treaty Rights, Department of Justice or you register with Garda National Immigration Bureau and they allocate you a GNIB Stamp 4 card contact me by email only.

This office will not accept anymore calls in relation this matter. We have explained what you have to do on many occasions and what is required: a Stamp 4. The stamp 4 gives you permission to work in this state

Refer to

http://www.djei.ie/labour/workpermits/marriedtoeu.htm

It clearly states you are required to provide Stamp 4 to work here as a non EEA national married to EU national residing here. EU Treaty Rights Department of Justice have clarified the same with this office.

----------------------------------
Above reply is something I have as a proof but Irish aurthorities openly not acknowledging that Non-EEA family of EEA national can work until they recieve their Residence Card or atleast certificate of application. My wife is self-sufficient and we showed marriage certificate and all the health is covered by my company. I hold UK residence Card that confirm one EEA country accepts my relationship but Irish Authorities are saying YOU AREN'T ALLOWED TO WORK UNTIL WE ANALYSE YOUR APPLICATION. I also provided them with my daughter's original passport (EEA) and Birth cert (British).

They want me to have something in my hand to show but I am worried now what will happen

adnan01 · Post by **adnan01** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:54 pm

I sent Welfare office EEA Directive 2004/38/EC all the pages and annotated sections. I annotated Articles and specifically Ariticle 24 as I remember that states non-EEA family of EEA family can work as far as EEA national have a right of residency. I explained this to my company and they agreed but they told me we are worried because this guy from Welfare office is giving us pressure and saying you are working illegally so we better off suspending you so that stamp 4 can be obtained.

I love this company as this is the best job I ever had since I graduated 3 years ago. I hope I won't lose it

Is there any thing else I could do to convince my employer????

I am suppose to recieve a call from legal company hired by my company to help me with all this issue but I am hoping to recieve certificate of registration ASAP so that I can start work again.

adnan01 wrote:Thanks EUsmileallSmile,

I have repeardetly informed this to welfare office in Cork Ireland and there is one guy who openly says to me that I am not eligible to work and I applied for PPS number (its like NI number) and they didn't finalise my application, instead this guy reported my company that im working illegally.

I dont have any complaint about my employer because they got worried and decided to take legal assistance on this matter and suspended me with salary, otherwise they can be fined upto 500k euro. This guy knows head of HR and he phoned her and told her all this. I sent him email asking on what basis you are claiming that im working illegally and following was his reply ;

Hi Adnan,

What happens between you and your employer is between you and the employer unfortunately.

The onus is on the Employer to ensure their employees are legally entitled to enter employment in the State.

At this point in time your case is with EU Treaty Rights Section Department of Justice and they are dealing with you now.

If you receive a Stamp 4: either temporary stamp 4 from EU Treaty Rights, Department of Justice or you register with Garda National Immigration Bureau and they allocate you a GNIB Stamp 4 card contact me by email only.

This office will not accept anymore calls in relation this matter. We have explained what you have to do on many occasions and what is required: a Stamp 4. The stamp 4 gives you permission to work in this state

Refer to

http://www.djei.ie/labour/workpermits/marriedtoeu.htm

It clearly states you are required to provide Stamp 4 to work here as a non EEA national married to EU national residing here. EU Treaty Rights Department of Justice have clarified the same with this office.

----------------------------------
Above reply is something I have as a proof but Irish aurthorities openly not acknowledging that Non-EEA family of EEA national can work until they recieve their Residence Card or atleast certificate of application. My wife is self-sufficient and we showed marriage certificate and all the health is covered by my company. I hold UK residence Card that confirm one EEA country accepts my relationship but Irish Authorities are saying YOU AREN'T ALLOWED TO WORK UNTIL WE ANALYSE YOUR APPLICATION. I also provided them with my daughter's original passport (EEA) and Birth cert (British).

They want me to have something in my hand to show but I am worried now what will happen

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:26 pm

Adnan,

I have read your posts. Have you read directive 2004/38/ec, I think you have?

Effectively the stamp4 would appear to be a certificate of application (I'm sure I'll be corrected if this is not the case). In the case that it is, you must ask the authorities why it was not issued immediately as is required by law.

Keep posting and keep questioning the authorities. Don't take no for an answer. The aim of the directive had been to simplify matters for EU nationals moving to another EU state. It would not appear that Ireland is behaving in a manner that would comply with this.

adnan01 · Post by **adnan01** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:01 pm

Thanks for your reply.

Yes I have read the whole Directive 2004/38/EC and I do understand that I am legal in every way to work here. But Irish authorities have made it clear to me that; THEY ONLY SEE THINGS THAT ARE PHYSICALLY PRESENT (i.e. STAMP 4) and as I am showing them what law says is not appropriate. And this is why my company has suspended me because I dont have anything to show like stamps or visa, just marriage cert and original passports, which should be enough but not for Irish Authorities and that's why my company felt worried.

I went to Immigration office with my wife and daughter, showed them all the documents and they said you need to apply for Residence Card then you will get stamp4. When I entered Ireland I was given a stamp with 2 months validity that clearly stated "NO WORK ALLOWED"

So I hoped maybe exit and entry will get me another stamp and this way I can get PPS number and sort out tax issues and apply for Residence Card. We all together went to Liverpool for a day and came back to Cork and at Airport I was told "your old stamp was WRONG AND THIS TIME WE WILL NOT STAMP YOUR PASSPORT".

I tried everything and in the end I applied Residence Card anyway but this has been hell. Even EU TREATY RIGHTS section of Irish Authorities replied me with an email saying YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO WORK IN IRELAND until you apply for Residence Card and get at least Certificate of Registration.

I have reported all this to SOLVIT....but what compensation can I get? we we have really struggled badly due to all these issues and specially this guy in Cork welfare office has made our family life hell, he also took 3 months to deal with my wife & daughter's PPS applications so we couldn't even apply for school for my daughter earlier. Following is the email I recieved from Irish Immigration department;

Hi Adnan,

You can visit Ireland with out need for a visa if you hold a residence card issued under the directive 2004/38/EC.

This does not entitle you to work. If you wish to work you will need to obtain a work permit before you enter Ireland or you must obtain a reside visa and then apply for EU Treaty Rights in Ireland (this will take 6 months to be issued)

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:26 am

Keep at them Adnan. You are entitled to work.

EU states can oblige non-EU family members to apply for a residence card (but not during their first three months of residence). Ireland, unlike the UK requires this.

You have now applied for a residence card. This can take up to six months to process. During this time, you are allowed to work and anyone that tells you otherwise is simply incorrect.

If for some reason, your wife were not self-sufficient, the above would not apply.

dalebutt · Post by **dalebutt** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:26 am

You should threaten them with court actions, let them know there will be consequences in the event that you loose your job due to their mishandling of your case. In reality you need not worry about loosing your job, if you do loose your job it will be their fault and they will more than make up for it with the tax payers money.

This case is similar to your case: http://courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/09859e7a ... enDocument.

Although the high court has referred the case the CJEU for preliminary ruling, the case in question is much more complex to yours, and God forbid you loose your job, it will be a straight forward case. You should remind them what the law says and advice that you are not prepared to give up on your rights easily, it's important.

adnan01 · Post by **adnan01** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:35 am

My wife is self-sufficient as I am working and we have not used any welfare assistance even child's related assistance.

The welfare office has strictly told me not to call their office until I have stamp 4 or GNIB card which I can get once I receive certificate of registration. I cant think of what more could I do. Solvit take ages to reply and I sent email to Irish immigration requesting certificate of registration and they say it can take up to 6-8 weeks. While I'm suspended my company is paying me full salary so I can't complain much but if they terminate my contract then that won't be good. I'm still with temporary contract and company can easily find other reason for termination but I was top performer this quarter so lets see. When I contact:

PPS office: they openly say I'm working illegally and don't call us anymore.

Irish immigration: we will send you letter within 6-8 weeks.

Company: we know you are legal to work but we don't have anything to show them.

All the authorities are against me and even at airport I was told you can't work. So how do I go about all this? I will get letter and things will be sorted but I want to take action against them particularly against the guy at welfare who openly claims that I'm illegal worker and reported to hr director about my case. I have his email stating I can't work and he sent emails to my manager as well.

Hope it will be sorted for good

dalebutt · Post by **dalebutt** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:07 am

Your case had already been dealt with by the high court, the MJELR has previously stated, that due to the unemployment crisis in Ireland, they would restrict work for spouses of EU citizens whilst their application for stamp4 is pending, that decision have been overturned by the court and I cannot seem to find the case.

adnan01 · Post by **adnan01** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:28 am

Hi dalebutt,

Can you again share the information on cases. It seems that law has been communicated differently here. I have been treated very badly.

I could try to forward similar case examples to my company. Also I hope to receive certificate of registration soon because that will resolve the whole issue.

If nothing works out next week then I will push my company to lift my suspension as I'm completely within legal boundaries and they should not worry. Here things seems to work in traditional ways. A guy from PPS office calls HR director and threatens her that keeping me at work can potentially cost them fine up to 500k and hr director gets worried without analysing what I'm saying as Irish authorities have more power.

Will update next week...thanks for help guys and let me any additional info you may have.

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:50 pm

With regards to your certificate of application, the law says immediately. There is no excuse for 6-8 weeks.

adnan01 · Post by **adnan01** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:01 pm

Hi EUsmileWeAllSmile,

I completelyagree that it should be issued immediately but Irish authorities are not following regulations strickly as it appears. Following is email reply I recieved when I asked them to immediately issue certificate of application;

Dear Adnan,

Your application was received in this office on 10/06/2013. As applicationscan take up to six months to process, a decision is due on your applicationby 10/12/2013. Applications are processed in chronological order. Due to the volume ofapplications on hand, it may take 6- 8 weeks before a response is issuedfrom this office. Once your documents have been processed, they will be returned to you and any outstanding documents will be requested. You areentitled to reside in the State while your application is pending.

Best regards,
-----------------------------

How do I deal with these guys...when you report Solvit..they take 4-6 weeks to reply too....I have sent email again today just asking them (Even I know) that as my application is recieved..am i entitle to work? if they reply with yes I can forward that email to my company. Otherwise I need to wait for letter.

Any other thoughts as to what action can I take?

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:42 am

It is interesting of them to state that you can reside in the state. Are they aware that your employment is at risk?

adnan01 · Post by **adnan01** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:58 am

No, they are not aware that my job is at risk. You're right, Maybe i should ask them for certificate of application to be issued immediately as per directive and maybe let them know about circumstances. What do you think?

I've asked them to confirm "am I entitled to work"....lets see what would be the reply but my next email would be about circumstances. They don't have phone service for Eu treaty section so email is only way to contact.

I need this to be sorted within next few days and I wish I could sue this guy in welfare office because not only he didn't finalise my PPS application, he kept saying "YOU ARE WORKING ILLEGALLY" and he also reported my company stating "he doesn't have stamp 4 so he can't work"....how can I take action against this guy? He even questioned my marriage which is not his job...we are married and have a 4 years old daughter..he messed up our time here...

adnan01 · Post by **adnan01** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:07 am

Also embarrassing because my company maybe thinks I'm illegal

I have no negative history on my immigration.. I was asked to leave (nicely) even I know I'm right I had to accept suspension.

Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

UK Residence card, can I work in Ireland?