Naturalization Refrees

[ishameeque]

Hello
After having ILR for almost 10 years now, I am planning to apply for my naturalisation. I have friends who will be happy to provide me with reference, who are in well placed jobs (IT Professionals). But, Do I need to get reference from any particular profession ( doctors, lawyers for example). I do not have a doctor or a lawyer friend who knows me for more than three years. Any inputs will be of great help. Thanks

[stedman]

IT professionals are fine. Everyone's a "professional" these days anyway (including plumbers, gardeners, electricians etc)

[Marco 72]

IT professionals are fine.

Where did you get this information?

[stedman]

IT is a profession, isn't it? And there is nowhere on the naturalization form that asks what profession the referee is anyway. I know someone who used their unemployed neighbour as a referee, successfully. And a few other similar stories. The person being a UK citizen of good standing is the most important thing. They are more fussy when it comes to actually applying for the passport.

[Marco 72]

IT is a profession, isn't it? And there is nowhere on the naturalization form that asks what profession the referee is anyway.

The form asks for the referee to be "a person of professional standing, such as a doctor, a minister of religion, civil servant or a member of a professional body e.g. accountant or solicitor", which is not exactly the same as saying that they must have a profession.

I know someone who used their unemployed neighbour as a referee, successfully. And a few other similar stories. The person being a UK citizen of good standing is the most important thing. They are more fussy when it comes to actually applying for the passport.

This was the case until the end of last year, when the new requirement was introduced. In January I called the naturalisation helpline to ask for clarification on this matter and was told that "anyone working in a professional organisation" would do. However, it didn't sound like the person I was talking to had much of a clue about anything. When I asked him if it was necessary for the "person of standing" to have a British passport he said "it doesn't say so", but wouldn't answer my question. In any case, they probably don't carry out referee checks on all applications.

[stedman]

The form asks for the referee to be "a person of professional standing, such as a doctor, a minister of religion, civil servant or a member of a professional body e.g. accountant or solicitor", which is not exactly the same as saying that they must have a profession.

Sure, but in practice it's more or less the same thing. I'm a doctor and before I got UK citizenship my patients assumed I was British and regularly brought their passport or naturalization forms to me to countersign. I explained why I couldn't do it (even now I am a UK citizen I'm reluctant to sign as I don't know them personally) and their response was always that they knew no-one else of professional standing who had known them for 2/3 years. In almost all cases they took my advice (i.e. do not interpret "professional standing" so rigidly) and gave the forms to random non-relatives to countersign, successfully. It appears as long as the referee isn't a criminal or a vagrant residing under Waterloo bridge the application is unlikely to be turned down.

[JAJ]

IT is a profession, isn't it? And there is nowhere on the naturalization form that asks what profession the referee is anyway.

The form asks for the referee to be "a person of professional standing, such as a doctor, a minister of religion, civil servant or a member of a professional body e.g. accountant or solicitor", which is not exactly the same as saying that they must have a profession.

It might help if the referee was a professional member of the British Computer Society. (http://www.bcs.org)

[champion]

The idea of refree from proffessional background is to make sure the person apply for naturalization is part of society and mixing up with people. And minimise the chance of identity theft. Unfortunately those who set the guideline for thenm it finish at teacher , solicitor , doctor.
Well I kept on moving place in every 6 month to 1 year.
My kids are too young to go to school
I never had any legal issue so I never came accross any solicitor.
most of minister of religion of my faith are still holding Indian passport apart from that I am not visiting same temple for 3 years.
Soem people in HO thinks that person won't move much.

I asked HO about this rule and told them that I can't get any of the person mentioned in their list. They said it is fine as far as that person is proffessional enough. Basically anyone who is not on debt or anti social behaviour, and adding something to society with his / work can be a refree.

[Christophe]

Well I kept on moving place in every 6 month to 1 year.

Don't forget that "knowing someone for three years" doesn't mean that you have to be in regular day-to-day contact with that person at the time of the application. In other words, you could meet someone today, see them regularly/frequently for the next six months, and then (for example) move house and so not see them often, or even at all. But three years after you met them you would still have known them for three years.

[champion]

agree but in real life you don't remain in touch with doctors in your surgery once you moved on. Yes I send them christmas cards but thats all. Unless the doctor knows you personally through friends / pub / neighbour he / she won't remember you.
And even if he remembers, he won't be ready to sign on refree paper unless he knows you well. With coulleague they knows you well they will do it but a doctor whom I visited hardly 4-5 times in my 18 months stay wont do that.
and I moved on to different part of the country and due to the April2nd deadline didnt had time to contact my doctor and see if he can refer me, I opted my coulleague's help.
I will let you know if there is any issue in my referee

[Christophe]

Yes, I agree that your family doctor might not be the right person in the circumstances that you describe. But former work colleagues might well be prepared to act as a referee and could well fulfil the time requirements even though you may not be working with them still.

[rogerroger]

the referee section in the naturalisation application is quite vague.

dont seem to have been done by a professional


i asked around and some one told me that IT people qualify as professionals. of course some one with a PhD working in the IT industry should be professional, correct?

[Marco 72]

The form does not say that the referee should be a professional, but rather a "person of professional standing".

[transpondia]

We obtained a partial list from the Nationality Advice Line.

http://www.londonelegance.com/transpondia/nationality

It is a 'partial' list because there is no official list, and they update this list as they go along.

[ombo]

I have the same problem - I've only visited a doctor once, talked to a solicitor twice, don't know any accountants and I work in IT where people are not normally members of a professional body.

I've e-mailed the home office and got this reply:

I am sorry but the referees need to meet all of the requirements as
stated in the Notes for Guidance that accompany the application form AN.

There was no mention of other professions (I only mentioned doctor, solicitor, accountant and minister of religion in my e-mail). I understand that their replies are always terse and unhelpful, which is a shame.


Thanks for posting the "partial" list, but it still doesn't help. Anyone knows a solicitor who needs a friend?

[champion]

I have the same problem - I've only visited a doctor once, talked to a solicitor twice, don't know any accountants and I work in IT where people are not normally members of a professional body.

I've e-mailed the home office and got this reply:

I am sorry but the referees need to meet all of the requirements as
stated in the Notes for Guidance that accompany the application form AN.

There was no mention of other professions (I only mentioned doctor, solicitor, accountant and minister of religion in my e-mail). I understand that their replies are always terse and unhelpful, which is a shame.


Thanks for posting the "partial" list, but it still doesn't help. Anyone knows a solicitor who needs a friend?

[Marco 72]

That list is exactly the same as the one given by the passport office for passport applications. According to the passport helpline, a university degree counts as a professional qualification. Ombo, if you don't know anyone who appears to meet the criteria, just use two of your colleagues. You will most likely be ok.

[maveli62]

I think the person of professional standing may not be British Citizen anyone residing in UK is eligible. This was told by the Home Office staff and I know a person got naturalisation with a signature from a doctor who holds an Indian Passport holder

[Dawie]

I really doubt that the Home Office properly checks the professional standing of your referees. At the most they will check that your referees are indeed British citizens, that they hold British passports and that their signatures on your application form match those held on their records.

But checking the professional standing of each and every referee they come across in all the naturalisation applications they receive every day? They just don't have the resources.

[SYH]

is there anything reference that explains how they check anything, not just referees but employers and income and the other things they check??

[John]

They do not publish that information, for obvious reasons. But there are clues. For example when signing the declaration on the application form the applicant authorises access to their record with HMRC, and thus it is suspected that they have access to all the tax and NI records held by HMRC.

Referees? BIA would have easy ability to access details of the British passport numbers entered.

Clearly, judging by the differing amounts of time taken, more checks are done in some cases than others. When my wife applied for Naturalisation 3 years ago neither of the referees were contacted, but that is not the same as saying that no checks were made on those referees.

[SYH]

Yeah I noticed the HMRC authorisation but even that has its limitation as it seems they are more interested if you paid taxes not your income.
NO I was hoping that maybe that guy who worked for them at one point could give us some helpful hints without breaching any confidentiality agreements as I am sure they probably asked him to sign.

[John]

Yeah I noticed the HMRC authorisation but even that has its limitation as it seems they are more interested if you paid taxes not your income.

It would also permit BIA to get confirmation, for example, that the employer information is correct, and indeed the NINO is real and allocated to the applicant.

I was hoping that maybe that guy who worked for them at one point could give us some helpful hints without breaching any confidentiality agreements as I am sure they probably asked him to sign.

Undoubtedly anyone dealing with applications at BIA would have needed to sign the Official Secrets Act. The best hope you have is making a Freedom of Information Act request for unpublished guidance to be disclosed. But even then there are provisions in the FOI which might permit them a legitimate excuse for denying such a request.

[maveli62]

I think the person of professional standing may not be British Citizen anyone residing in UK is eligible. This was told by the Home Office staff and I know a person got naturalisation with a signature from a doctor who holds an Indian Passport holder

Any idea whether this is 100% true ? Or is it a case of which caseworker takes the application ?

[Christophe]

I think the person of professional standing may not be British Citizen anyone residing in UK is eligible. This was told by the Home Office staff and I know a person got naturalisation with a signature from a doctor who holds an Indian Passport holder

Any idea whether this is 100% true ? Or is it a case of which caseworker takes the application ?

No, the referees for a naturalisation must be British citizens. For a passport application they may be either British or Irish citizens, I think. (All Commonwealth citizens used to be eligible to counter-sign a passport application, but not any more.)