Recognition of marriage

[shinwangeutreaty]

I am a British working in Dublin. My wife is a Chinese living in China.

My wife has applied for Irish entry visa twice in accordance with the Directive 2004/38. Unfortunately, both application were refused on the grounds of her marriage is not recognized under Irish Law.

Because my wife was 17 years old at the time of our marriage took place in Hong Kong. Therefore her marriage is not recognized under Irish Law.Our marriage has been contracted legally in Hong Kong. and certificate of marriage has been apostilled under Hague Convention. According to the European Commission in a Communication to the European Parliament and Council in July 2009. it is stated:

“Marriages validly contracted anywhere in the world must be in principle recognized for the purpose of the application of the Directive.”

What should we do to turn the tables?

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

It might be a problem if you are Irish and there is some law preventing that marriage from being recognised. However, you are British. Is the marriage recognised in British law? If so, there should be no problem with it in my opinion.

You may find this site interesting.

http://www.groireland.ie/faqs.htm#29

[IntegratedMigrant]

I think its not recognise cos you're married to an under-aged girl? I could be wrong. How old are you?

[shinwangeutreaty]

It might be a problem if you are Irish and there is some law preventing that marriage from being recognised. However, you are British. Is the marriage recognised in British law? If so, there should be no problem with it in my opinion.

You may find this site interesting.

http://www.groireland.ie/faqs.htm#29

Thank you so much for your information. My marriage is recognised under British Law. But Irish embassy refused the application by the reason that my wife was under 18 years old at the time of marriage took place in Hong Kong, therefore her marriage is not recognized under Irish Law.
I don't know how to appeal the refusal. what documents I need to support her appeal.

[barnaby]

My marriage is recognised under British Law. But Irish embassy refused the application by the reason that my wife was under 18 years old at the time of marriage took place in Hong Kong, therefore her marriage is not recognized under Irish Law.
I don't know how to appeal the refusal. what documents I need to support her appeal.

Here's an idea. Your wife could apply for a normal visitor visa. On arrival, you go to a register office in Ireland and get married again.

[IntegratedMigrant]

Thank you so much for your information. My marriage is recognised under British Law. But Irish embassy refused the application by the reason that my wife was under 18 years old at the time of marriage took place in Hong Kong, therefore her marriage is not recognized under Irish Law.
I don't know how to appeal the refusal. what documents I need to support her appeal.

You still haven't answer directly to my questions?

[zaza7625]

[quote="shinwangeutreaty"]I am a British working in Dublin. My wife is a Chinese living in China.

My wife has applied for Irish entry visa twice in accordance with the Directive 2004/38. Unfortunately, both application were refused on the grounds of her marriage is not recognized under Irish Law.

Because my wife was 17 years old at the time of our marriage took place in Hong Kong. Therefore her marriage is not recognized under Irish Law.Our marriage has been contracted legally in Hong Kong. and certificate of marriage has been apostilled under Hague Convention. According to the European Commission in a Communication to the European Parliament and Council in July 2009. it is stated:

“Marriages validly contracted anywhere in the world must be in principle recognized for the purpose of the application of the Directive.”

What should we do to turn the tables?[/quot
It doesn't matter where the marriage took place. The main thing why the marriage has not been recognized is that the couple are under age otherwise it might be recognized when certificate is notarized by corresponding authorities.

[shinwangeutreaty]

I think its not recognise cos you're married to an under-aged girl? I could be wrong. How old are you?

Thank you pal, my age is not the case. Our marriage was contracted in Hong Kong legally. Any people age over 16 can get married in Hong Kong and UK. But any people under 18 years old needs parental consent before getting married in Hong Kong and UK. Thank you again, pal.

[IntegratedMigrant]

I think its not recognise cos you're married to an under-aged girl? I could be wrong. How old are you?

Thank you pal, my age is not the case. Our marriage was contracted in Hong Kong legally. Any people age over 16 can get married in Hong Kong and UK. But any people under 18 years old needs parental consent before getting married in Hong Kong and UK. Thank you again, pal.

Being that your marriage is not recognise under Irish Law, it sounds like the Law sees the man that is married to an under-aged girl as a pedophile if you're over 18 years of age.

[shinwangeutreaty]

I am a British working in Dublin. My wife is a Chinese living in China.

My wife has applied for Irish entry visa twice in accordance with the Directive 2004/38. Unfortunately, both application were refused on the grounds of her marriage is not recognized under Irish Law.

Because my wife was 17 years old at the time of our marriage took place in Hong Kong. Therefore her marriage is not recognized under Irish Law.Our marriage has been contracted legally in Hong Kong. and certificate of marriage has been apostilled under Hague Convention. According to the European Commission in a Communication to the European Parliament and Council in July 2009. it is stated:

“Marriages validly contracted anywhere in the world must be in principle recognized for the purpose of the application of the Directive.”

What should we do to turn the tables?[/quot
It doesn't matter where the marriage took place. The main thing why the marriage has not been recognized is that the couple are under age otherwise it might be recognized when certificate is notarized by corresponding authorities.

Thank you pal, our marriage certificate has been apostilled at High Court Hong Kong under Hague Convention.

My wife WAS under 18 years at the time of marriage.

[shinwangeutreaty]

My marriage is recognised under British Law. But Irish embassy refused the application by the reason that my wife was under 18 years old at the time of marriage took place in Hong Kong, therefore her marriage is not recognized under Irish Law.
I don't know how to appeal the refusal. what documents I need to support her appeal.

Here's an idea. Your wife could apply for a normal visitor visa. On arrival, you go to a register office in Ireland and get married again.

Thank you pal, do you think her visitor visa could be granted after two EUTR visas refused?

[dalebutt]

The Irish visitor's visa will almost definitely be refused, I have had similar experience with the Irish on marriage law. Can you contact the GRO office in England and ask if they would be able to validate your marriage under English law if you were married in England, this will take some time and quite an amount of money.

Secondly you could get a UK family lawyer to write a letter to evident that your Marriage is valid under British law on a company's letter head as it's most likely they will contact the firm.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

My marriage is recognised under British Law. But Irish embassy refused the application by the reason that my wife was under 18 years old at the time of marriage took place in Hong Kong, therefore her marriage is not recognized under Irish Law.
I don't know how to appeal the refusal. what documents I need to support her appeal.

Here's an idea. Your wife could apply for a normal visitor visa. On arrival, you go to a register office in Ireland and get married again.

A married person cannot marry again.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

It might be a problem if you are Irish and there is some law preventing that marriage from being recognised. However, you are British. Is the marriage recognised in British law? If so, there should be no problem with it in my opinion.

You may find this site interesting.

http://www.groireland.ie/faqs.htm#29

Thank you so much for your information. My marriage is recognised under British Law. But Irish embassy refused the application by the reason that my wife was under 18 years old at the time of marriage took place in Hong Kong, therefore her marriage is not recognized under Irish Law.
I don't know how to appeal the refusal. what documents I need to support her appeal.

Good, that's a start. Did you go through the links I'd posted? You may need to do some digging as to how to get the Irish to recognise your marriage.

The basic point being that you would not have been allowed to marry in Ireland if you did not meet their requirements or perhaps abroad if you were Irish. That would not have stopped you from marrying abroad as you married under the laws of that country and are not Irish.

You may need to seek specialist legal advise. For a start, it might be worth contacting the British embassy for information.

[IntegratedMigrant]

My marriage is recognised under British Law. But Irish embassy refused the application by the reason that my wife was under 18 years old at the time of marriage took place in Hong Kong, therefore her marriage is not recognized under Irish Law.
I don't know how to appeal the refusal. what documents I need to support her appeal.

Here's an idea. Your wife could apply for a normal visitor visa. On arrival, you go to a register office in Ireland and get married again.

A married person cannot marry again.

This is quite funny

[barnaby]

Here's an idea. Your wife could apply for a normal visitor visa. On arrival, you go to a register office in Ireland and get married again.

A married person cannot marry again.

That's my point: they could marry again in Ireland because apparently they are deemed not to be married. If the registrar refuses to marry them on the grounds that they are already married, they can use that to appeal the visa decision.

[IntegratedMigrant]

Here's an idea. Your wife could apply for a normal visitor visa. On arrival, you go to a register office in Ireland and get married again.

A married person cannot marry again.

That's my point: they could marry again in Ireland because apparently they are deemed not to be married. If the registrar refuses to marry them on the grounds that they are already married, they can use that to appeal the visa decision.

They could renew their vows now that she is not under-aged?

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

To be clear, the OP is legally married. They cannot marry again.

[shinwangeutreaty]

Here's an idea. Your wife could apply for a normal visitor visa. On arrival, you go to a register office in Ireland and get married again.

A married person cannot marry again.

That's my point: they could marry again in Ireland because apparently they are deemed not to be married. If the registrar refuses to marry them on the grounds that they are already married, they can use that to appeal the visa decision.

It makes sense.

[IntegratedMigrant]

Married people can renew their vows whenever they so wish. I just dont know if this is the case with the OP

[Brigid from Ireland]

How long have you been living in Ireland? You become resident for marriage purpose on the start of the fourth year. If you are in Ireland less time than this before marriage you can appeal their decision on the basis of the fact that you were not ordinarily resident in Ireland at the time of the marriage and not subject to Irish marriage law. Therefore the marriage is legal despite the age of the bride, as Irish law does not count in this case, as you were not in Ireland long enough for Irish law to matter.

It is not about being an Irish citizen, it is about living in Ireland for more than three years - in such cases the Irish impose Irish law on your marriage.

If you were on your fourth year in Ireland (or more) at the time of the marriage then Irish marriage law applies. So then Ireland is saying you are not married by Irish law. This means that you can marry under Irish law. So you marry the girl again, as Ireland is saying you are not married to her. Simple.

You make an application for free to the Irish Circuit court. The first application is 'an application made to the Circuit Family Court for a ruling under Section 29 of the Family Law Act, 1995 as to whether the marriage is recognisable under Irish law'. If it is recognised then you are fine, and if you were less than three years in Ireland it may be recognised. If it is not recognised then you marry her a second time, and you make sure it is legal by following the required steps. These are:

If the girl is still under 18, you ask permission to marry her by application to the Irish Circuit court. This is free. Once this is granted you can marry her again and the marriage is legal in Ireland. Or wait until she is 18 and then marry her again. Also legal in Ireland.

There is no charge and you do not need a solicitor.

There is a possible fine of 635 euro for you, but only if you say that you knew the Irish law BEFORE you married her.

Most countries will have no problem marrying you again, as you are marrying the same woman and this does not cause a legal problem especially once you explain that your first marriage to her is not recognised in Ireland and you wish to marry to confirm her rights such as inheritance rights.

You continue until you make a successful application to the Circuit Family Court for a ruling under Section 29 of the Family Law Act, 1995 as to whether the marriage is recognisable under Irish law. You get them to confirm it and if they decide against you then you re-marry and then you apply again for them to confirm that you are married under Irish law.

Simple and free.

All foreign marriages should apply to the Irish Circuit family court for the ruling under section 29 to say that their marriage is legal in Ireland, as this is needed for inheritance and social welfare rights to be certain if one spouse dies. There are sad cases where a couple married many years, one dies and the remaining spouse cannot get the Irish widows pension or occupational pension or inherit the family home because the marriage is not legal in Ireland and the spouse is dead and cannot then solve the problem. Huge issue for many immigrants, but most do not realise as it becomes an issue only when one spouse dies. Then it is a loss of ten thousand euro per year in state widows pension, maybe occupation widows pension also and house also. It is also an issuse for Irish people who married abroad and who did not fulfil the legal requirement abroad and are not actually married - the most recent case was only about a month ago and noticed by the bank when they wanted a mortgage.

[shinwangeutreaty]

How long have you been living in Ireland? You become resident for marriage purpose on the start of the fourth year. If you are in Ireland less time than this before marriage you can appeal their decision on the basis of the fact that you were not ordinarily resident in Ireland at the time of the marriage and not subject to Irish marriage law. Therefore the marriage is legal despite the age of the bride, as Irish law does not count in this case, as you were not in Ireland long enough for Irish law to matter.

It is not about being an Irish citizen, it is about living in Ireland for more than three years - in such cases the Irish impose Irish law on your marriage.

If you were on your fourth year in Ireland (or more) at the time of the marriage then Irish marriage law applies. So then Ireland is saying you are not married by Irish law. This means that you can marry under Irish law. So you marry the girl again, as Ireland is saying you are not married to her. Simple.

You make an application for free to the Irish Circuit court. The first application is 'an application made to the Circuit Family Court for a ruling under Section 29 of the Family Law Act, 1995 as to whether the marriage is recognisable under Irish law'. If it is recognised then you are fine, and if you were less than three years in Ireland it may be recognised. If it is not recognised then you marry her a second time, and you make sure it is legal by following the required steps. These are:

If the girl is still under 18, you ask permission to marry her by application to the Irish Circuit court. This is free. Once this is granted you can marry her again and the marriage is legal in Ireland. Or wait until she is 18 and then marry her again. Also legal in Ireland.

There is no charge and you do not need a solicitor.

There is a possible fine of 635 euro for you, but only if you say that you knew the Irish law BEFORE you married her.

Most countries will have no problem marrying you again, as you are marrying the same woman and this does not cause a legal problem especially once you explain that your first marriage to her is not recognised in Ireland and you wish to marry to confirm her rights such as inheritance rights.

You continue until you make a successful application to the Circuit Family Court for a ruling under Section 29 of the Family Law Act, 1995 as to whether the marriage is recognisable under Irish law. You get them to confirm it and if they decide against you then you re-marry and then you apply again for them to confirm that you are married under Irish law.

Simple and free.

All foreign marriages should apply to the Irish Circuit family court for the ruling under section 29 to say that their marriage is legal in Ireland, as this is needed for inheritance and social welfare rights to be certain if one spouse dies. There are sad cases where a couple married many years, one dies and the remaining spouse cannot get the Irish widows pension or occupational pension or inherit the family home because the marriage is not legal in Ireland and the spouse is dead and cannot then solve the problem. Huge issue for many immigrants, but most do not realise as it becomes an issue only when one spouse dies. Then it is a loss of ten thousand euro per year in state widows pension, maybe occupation widows pension also and house also. It is also an issuse for Irish people who married abroad and who did not fulfil the legal requirement abroad and are not actually married - the most recent case was only about a month ago and noticed by the bank when they wanted a mortgage.

Thank you so much for the above information and advice.

We got married in Hong Kong in Feb 2013. It was April 2013 that I moved to Ireland and registered as self employed. As your information, my wife's marriage should be recognized in Ireland. But how to appeal against the refusal and what documents or evidence in support of the appeal.

Thank you very much.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Have you tried to get advise from British embassy with regards to your particular situation? As far as the UK is concerned, you are married and do not have the capacity to remarry.

I am aware that Ireland applies its marriage rules to its own citizens (and foreigners who wish to marry in the state).

Interestingly, Ireland accepts foreign divorces for Irish citizens (its a question of domicile of the parties).

I would think that there's a fundamental problem with Ireland attempting to impose its marriage rules on foreign nationals who marry abroad. I suggest you solicit advice.

[shinwangeutreaty]

Have you tried to get advise from British embassy with regards to your particular situation? As far as the UK is concerned, you are married and do not have the capacity to remarry.

I am aware that Ireland applies its marriage rules to its own citizens (and foreigners who wish to marry in the state).

Interestingly, Ireland accepts foreign divorces for Irish citizens (its a question of domicile of the parties).

I would think that there's a fundamental problem with Ireland attempting to impose its marriage rules on foreign nationals who marry abroad. I suggest you solicit advice.

Thank you pal, as your advised that I would like to seek some legal advice.

In the European Commission in a Communication to the European Parliament and Council in July 2009, it is stated:
“Marriages validly contracted anywhere in the world must be in principle recognized for the purpose of the application of the Directive.”


I don't understand why I have to imposed to subject to Irish marriage Law, despite I was not resident in Ireland at the time of my marriage.

[churada]

I married my wife in China too - but on the mainland.
While I can understand that this might not seem appealing to you why not just divorce her over there and remarry?

I can't claim to know how its done in Hong kong but on the mainland divorce can be done in minutes without the need for lawyers at all. Marriage is the same.
Just a thought, its only a paperwork exercise and you shouldn't have to do it but maybe an easier thing to do than "fight the system" here?

Secondly, where are you applying for her visa? When we applied for my wifes visa it was though the irish consulate in Beijing, but I remember at the time that if we had been married in Hong Kong it was supposed to be done in the consulate there. I'm quite surprised that the local consulate wouldn't recognise the local marriage laws there?