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Timelines for renouncing Irish citizenship for EEAFP (Singh)

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chaoclive
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Ireland

Timelines for renouncing Irish citizenship for EEAFP (Singh)

Post by chaoclive » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:04 pm

Hi there

I am currently residing outside the EU with my Chinese civil partner (fully registered civil partner, August 2011). I was born in Northern Ireland and hold both British and Irish passports.

I plan a move back to the EU and, finally, the UK. Due to the previous changes stamping out the use of non-British citizenship by dual citizens (holding British citizenship), I have decided to renounce my Irish citizenship (apparently it can be taken up quite easily again in the future). I would then plan to move to Ireland on a non-EEA family member visa issued by the Embassy of the Republic of Ireland in Beijing. After a 'period of employment' in Ireland, I would move back to the UK (possibly Northern Ireland, but not necessarily) and then continue with my life in the UK. In this way, my partner will be able to be with my no matter what.

What I am wondering about is when should I renounce my Irish passport (this would also have to be in the Irish Embassy in Beijing - where we currently live and work)? I'm a little worried that the staff who take part in confirming my renunciation of Irish citizenship would (although) unlikely come across my partner's application as the registered partner of a British citizen.

Do you think it would be best to put a few months between these two processes? As it stands, only my British passport is valid for my work in China and I do not need my Irish passport at present (I only use it for entry into Hong Kong on holiday so I don't need to use up all my British passport visa pages). Or, as the Irish Embassy application form doesn't even ask if I am a dual citizen, does it matter in this process? What would happen if I didn't declare Irish citizenship and just my partner just applied, relying on my British citizenship. I understand that this is not allowed in the UK, but have not read any guidance on how Ireland is dealing with the ruling from McCarthy.

Does anyone have experience with this?

Would appreciate any views/information!

Thanks in advance!
C

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:49 pm

This question would be better served in the Ireland section of the forum.

I'm not very familiar with Irish immigration but I don't think you need to go to such extreme. I believe you can use your British nationality in Ireland even if Irish. The UKBA won't be concerned by you doing so.

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:30 am

If you plan to move to Ireland, then there is NO reason to renounce any citizenship. Absolutely none.

Have you ever used your Irish passport before? Ever in the UK? How long have you had it? Depending on your background, you can just move directly to the UK.

chaoclive
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Ireland

Sounds promising but...

Post by chaoclive » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:32 am

Thanks for the replies guys.

Whilst I know that the UKBA website states:
The Surinder Singh judgment is incorporated into the EEA Regulations in Regulation 9. Family members of British nationals who meet the requirements of Regulation 9 are treated as family members of EEA nationals for the purposes of the EEA Regulations.

Applications for EEA family permits must meet the following criteria:

The British citizen must be residing in an EEA Member State as a worker or self-employed person or have been doing so before returning to the UK.
If the family member of the British citizen is their spouse or civil partner, they are living together in the EEA country or must have entered into the marriage or civil partnership and have been living together in the relevant EEA country before the British citizen returned to the UK.


Thus, not mentioning the fact that it does not matter that I will be working in a country of which I have citizenship, I am concerned as to whether or not they would try to use the following against me in the judgement later (under Singh), especially because of the following:

EUN2.16 Can family members of dual British / Irish nationals qualify for an EEA family permit?
Until 16 July 2012 persons who held British citizenship and who were also nationals of another EEA member state could rely on that EEA nationality to benefit from the terms of the Directive. This was because Regulation 2 of the 2006 Regulations did not preclude such dual national British citizens from benefitting from free right movements.

The definition of EEA national in Regulation 2 was amended on 16 July 2012 to preclude dual British citizens/EEA nationals from benefitting from the Directive and therefore also to preclude their family members from relying upon free movement rights.


and:

A dual citizen who has never exercised his/her right of free movement and has always resided in the Member State of which s/he is a national cannot be said to be a beneficiary of the Citizen’s Directive. It no longer makes any difference that the citizen in question is also a national of a Member State other than that where s/he resides. http://lawcentreni.org/EoR/immigration/ ... tions.html (I see this as meaning me working in Ireland as a Brit holding an Irish passport which I haven't presented for purposes of employment)

At the moment, we are both working in China and our civil partnership was registered at a British Consulate in 2011. I have not used my Irish passport in the UK (except perhaps for flights between Belfast and GB around 2006). I can't be sure. If I am carrying both passports with me when traveling to GB, I just pull out the one that's closest to hand. However, I have been living outside the UK (in China) since the end of 2006 and have not been back in the UK more than 3 times (only for holidays lasting about 3 weeks at a time). I have never used my Irish passport in the ROI and all my (UK) documents (National Insurance/jobs etc.), where necessary, have used my British passport.

The only thing that kind of concerns me now is that (when we were considering applying for an EEAFP for my partner to join me to the UK in 2011, I went to the Irish Embassy in Beijing to get a certificate stating that my Irish passport is genuine. I'm not sure how closely visa and consular services would be linked in the Irish Embassy, but I don't want to give myself (and my partner) and trouble/stress for the future.

I would be devastated if the British authorities somehow knew that I had Irish citizenship and rejected his request for residence documentation under Singh. This would mean moving away to a third country (Spain/Denmark etc) just to do the whole process again. Would they also think that it was strange that a British citizen born in Northern Ireland (who obviously has access to an Irish passport based on my date of birth) chose to move to Ireland (just a few miles, perhaps, from his hometown) for a period (probably about 6-8 months) to work as a waiter or other job, despite having 2 degrees, a Masters, 4 years of professional work experience and being fluent in Mandarin Chinese? Haha.

I am not really nationalistic in any way and would have no problem (personally) giving up my Irish passport just so that we can be together in the future. I have read that it's possible to get it back in the future anyway, because I'm not a naturalized citizen. I was born in N. Ireland in 1980 so there is no question about having access to Irish citizenship.

To cut a long story short, I'd still be willing to renounce Irish citizenship (temporarily) and get my partner back to the UK first.

I'm really just a worrier, who wants to go the path of least resistance. I don't have that much by way of savings and do not think that trying to take things to court would be the best way to go!

Thanks so much for your speedy replies again.
C

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Post by wiggsy » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:19 am

but case law has determined that moving from Northern Ireland to the UK "Mainland" (although still part of the UK) is still excersising treaty rights...

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 34:EN:HTML (Case C-34/09)
Para 78.
Catherine Zhu was born in one part of the United Kingdom (Northern Ireland) and merely moved within the United Kingdom (going to England). The laws then granting Irish nationality to anyone born on the island of Ireland (including in Northern Ireland), coupled with good legal advice, enabled her to rely on citizenship of the Union to found a right of residence in the United Kingdom for herself and her Chinese mother,
Case C‑200/02 [2004] ECR I‑9925. Having checked the national file in Zhu and Chen, I take this opportunity to clarify a long-running confusion in nomenclature. Catherine’s mother was born Lavette Man Chen. She married Guoqing Zhu (known as Hopkins Zhu) and became Mrs Zhu. The couple’s daughter was therefore Catherine Zhu. Both mother and daughter bore the surname Zhu when the application that gave rise to Case C-200/02 was lodged. The reference to Chen (and the ensuing confusion as to which applicant was Zhu and which Chen) flows from a simple misunderstanding.


and to note:

The British citizen must be residing in an EEA Member State as a worker or self-employed person or have been doing so before returning to the UK.
If the family member of the British citizen is their spouse or civil partner, they are living together in the EEA country or must have entered into the marriage or civil partnership and have been living together in the relevant EEA country before the British citizen returned to the UK.
not only that, but case law (Carpenter) state providing services in the EU also.... even if based in the UK... where the spouse aids in this services provisions...

(So if you live in N Ireland, and work in the republic ;) and your spouse cares for your kids etc.... )

chaoclive
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confused

Post by chaoclive » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:46 am

Thanks for this.

It's starting to sound much more complex than I expected :shock:

We don't have kids and are currently living out the EU area...not sure if the 2 cases above would apply.

I need to get him an EU entry visa first (probably easiest from the Irish Embassy in Beijing as a British citizen).

wiggsy
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Post by wiggsy » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:45 pm

If you've ever worked in the Republic then you have excersised treaty rights as a british citizen, and uk, the same for Irish... Northern Ireland is kind of a "middle ground"...

(hence how Chen came about) - but to be fair, I would apply for a FP directly to the UK as an Irish citizen... and if that fails go with Ireland...

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Re: confused

Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:51 pm

chaoclive wrote:It's starting to sound much more complex than I expected :shock:

We don't have kids and are currently living out the EU area...not sure if the 2 cases above would apply.

I need to get him an EU entry visa first (probably easiest from the Irish Embassy in Beijing as a British citizen).
You need to relax. It all seems complex, but it is actually very straight forward for your situation.

It does not matter if you are presently living in the EU, or even if you have NEVER lived in the EU.

As discussed, your best course of action is to just apply for an EEA Family Permit now, using your Irish passport. Likely it will just be issued. Then move to the UK, and start working using your Irish passport.

chaoclive
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Ireland

Post by chaoclive » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:13 pm

I'll probably go with applying for the Irish equivalent of the EEAFP due to being a British citizen, rather than a British EEAFP as an Irish citizen.

The British Embassy seems pretty clear that dual British/EEA citizens can't apply for EEAFPs for their partners.

Jambo
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Re: confused

Post by Jambo » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:13 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:Likely it will just be issued
I would not be so optimistic (following the "Also British, Only British" changes).

Singh via Ireland might be required.

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:40 pm

Singh via Ireland might be required. Or might not.

Easiest thing is to initially apply for an EEA FP. Better to not turn yourself down (by not applying), and instead apply and see how it goes.

Especially if the Irish citizen will be working in the UK...

My 2p for what it is worth...

That being said, it could be a lot of fun to move to Ireland and live and work there for a while. Certainly another option!

chaoclive
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Post by chaoclive » Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:59 pm

Just scared about him getting a black mark against his name...and having to state that he was refused for a UK visa every time he applies for another visa :(

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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:30 pm

I recall at least one other poster, who having been born in Northern Ireland and holding a British passport had their spouse's application rejected.

Irish persons born in the UK are British citizens. Given that you hold a British passport, it is likely that an application for an EEA family permit would fail in the circumstances you describe.

chaoclive
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Post by chaoclive » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:53 pm

Ok - that's it decided then
Entry permit from the Irish Embassy here and then Surinder Singh it is!

Thanks for your help :)
C

stuts
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Post by stuts » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:19 am

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:I recall at least one other poster, who having been born in Northern Ireland and holding a British passport had their spouse's application rejected.

Irish persons born in the UK are British citizens. Given that you hold a British passport, it is likely that an application for an EEA family permit would fail in the circumstances you describe.
That'd be me maybe, still waiting to hear about reconsideration, emailed my Mp again tonight to see if he can gee them up a bit so I can at least travel. Was meant to leave tomorrow night. Original thread here:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=139929

chaoclive
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Post by chaoclive » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:43 am

Stuts

Thanks for this information. I guess my situation would be quite like you.

Unfortunately, I don't have the resources to fight a battle in court and definitely don't have the resources to sponsor my partner under a spouse visa. It looks like the only option is renouncing Irish citizenship first and taking it back up at some time in the future.

I really hope that this works out for you! I'm looking forward to your positive news in the future!

Do keep us all up to date!

All the best
C

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Post by Jambo » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:25 am

chaoclive wrote:It looks like the only option is renouncing Irish citizenship first and taking it back up at some time in the future.
I'm not sure why you are fixed on renouncing the Irish citizenship. You should be able to apply for a visa (and exercise treaty rights) using your British passport in Ireland even if you are Irish. As long as you do this using your British passport, the HO would accept that.

chaoclive
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Post by chaoclive » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:57 am

Better safe than sorry...

That way I would be in complete compliance of the EU Directive (i.e. not working a country of which you have citizenship). That way there would be no way that I would face problems later!

Renouncing Irish citizenship is no big deal (quick, cheap process and the option to get it back).

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:57 pm

chaoclive wrote:Better safe than sorry...

That way I would be in complete compliance of the EU Directive (i.e. not working a country of which you have citizenship). That way there would be no way that I would face problems later!

Renouncing Irish citizenship is no big deal (quick, cheap process and the option to get it back).
Might be best to renounce all your EU citizenships while you are at it???

If you are smart, you will take a break and think very very carefully through the issues before doing something silly like renouncing any of your citizenships.

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Post by wiggsy » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:19 pm

chaoclive wrote:Better safe than sorry...

That way I would be in complete compliance of the EU Directive (i.e. not working a country of which you have citizenship). That way there would be no way that I would face problems later!

Renouncing Irish citizenship is no big deal (quick, cheap process and the option to get it back).
but the fact is, the UK state if your british your only british...

therefore your Irish citizenship will have no impact... otherwise you can come directly to the uk... Think about it C, what if ireland don't allow you to commence your citizenship... its not as easy as its made out...

citizenship is granted on condition that they believe you will actually benefit ETC.... if youve renounced it (except if required to say move to a country like Indonesia that requires single nationality) it could actually be VERY difficult.

As others have said, there is no need to renounce citizenship...

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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:35 pm

stuts wrote:
EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:I recall at least one other poster, who having been born in Northern Ireland and holding a British passport had their spouse's application rejected.

Irish persons born in the UK are British citizens. Given that you hold a British passport, it is likely that an application for an EEA family permit would fail in the circumstances you describe.
That'd be me maybe, still waiting to hear about reconsideration, emailed my Mp again tonight to see if he can gee them up a bit so I can at least travel. Was meant to leave tomorrow night. Original thread here:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=139929
Thanks for posting the link. I would be interested to know on what basis do you think a reconsideration would be granted?

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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:38 pm

chaoclive wrote:Better safe than sorry...

That way I would be in complete compliance of the EU Directive (i.e. not working a country of which you have citizenship). That way there would be no way that I would face problems later!

Renouncing Irish citizenship is no big deal (quick, cheap process and the option to get it back).
If you are super worried and don't want to risk non-compliance with the EU directive as you put it, what about picking an EU country where you don't hold citizenship?

stuts
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Post by stuts » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:19 pm

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:
stuts wrote:
EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:I recall at least one other poster, who having been born in Northern Ireland and holding a British passport had their spouse's application rejected.

Irish persons born in the UK are British citizens. Given that you hold a British passport, it is likely that an application for an EEA family permit would fail in the circumstances you describe.
That'd be me maybe, still waiting to hear about reconsideration, emailed my Mp again tonight to see if he can gee them up a bit so I can at least travel. Was meant to leave tomorrow night. Original thread here:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=139929
Thanks for posting the link. I would be interested to know on what basis do you think a reconsideration would be granted?
On the basis that their grounds for refusal are that I've never exercised my treaty rights and that I hold a British passport. I've lived and worked (albeit briefly) in 2 other European countries, so I've clearly exercised my rights of free movement.

And that the Good Friday agreement ratified by both countries specifically and categorically states that anyone born in Northern Ireland has the right to define their own nationality, as they choose and both governments must recognise this.

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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:25 pm

stuts wrote:
On the basis that their grounds for refusal are that I've never exercised my treaty rights and that I hold a British passport. I've lived and worked (albeit briefly) in 2 other European countries, so I've clearly exercised my rights of free movement.

Given your French connection, yes, you have worked in other EU countries. That said, spouse was not with you. Nonetheless, your case is different to McCarthy.

And that the Good Friday agreement ratified by both countries specifically and categorically states that anyone born in Northern Ireland has the right to define their own nationality, as they choose and both governments must recognise this.

Again this is an interesting angle, but as far an British nationality law is concerned, you are British having been born in the UK to either Irish or British parents. Irish nationality law would allow a person born in these circumstances to be Irish, but it does not appear to be automatic in all circumstances, ie there may be an element of choice. If Northern Ireland's constitutional status were to change in the future, the UK's nationality law would require to be change, in essence to similar to that of Ireland. [/quote]

I am interested in your case and wish you success. See some responses above. McCarthy has indeed muddied the waters.

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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:25 pm

stuts wrote:
On the basis that their grounds for refusal are that I've never exercised my treaty rights and that I hold a British passport. I've lived and worked (albeit briefly) in 2 other European countries, so I've clearly exercised my rights of free movement.

Given your French connection, yes, you have worked in other EU countries. That said, spouse was not with you. Nonetheless, your case is different to McCarthy.

And that the Good Friday agreement ratified by both countries specifically and categorically states that anyone born in Northern Ireland has the right to define their own nationality, as they choose and both governments must recognise this.

Again this is an interesting angle, but as far an British nationality law is concerned, you are British having been born in the UK to either Irish or British parents. Irish nationality law would allow a person born in these circumstances to be Irish, but it does not appear to be automatic in all circumstances, ie there may be an element of choice. If Northern Ireland's constitutional status were to change in the future, the UK's nationality law would require to be changed, in essence to similar to that of Ireland. [/quote]

I am interested in your case and wish you success. See some responses above. McCarthy has indeed muddied the waters.

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