child tax credit overpayment

[mohmmad786]

Hello everyone.

I was wondering if anyone can give us any advice on child tax credit overpayment.

I am from Pakistan and my wife is British. My case was in the home office for around 2 years and got my residence permit in June 2011. I applied for national insurance number and got it 31 October 2011.

My wife and I got married in 2005 but due to me not having any paper work and due to problem with money we did not apply for my immigration papers till 2007. Because of all that my wife was receiving tax credit under single person.

As my immigration papers went in the home office. My wife told tax credit on 30th march 2007 that she was wanted to change her single claim to joint claim but the problem was that they were asking for my national insurance number which i didn't had. In the end wife spoke to some kind of manager at tax credit office over the phone who advised that the only way to get tax credit is for her to claim as a single parent.

As she was advised by someone at the tax credit office, my wife again made a claim under single parent so she can start receiving the money as the money was stopped on the joint claim as we could not provide tax credit with my NI number.

On 31 October I received my NI number. As my wife was and still suffering from depression and other health problems we decided that all the benefits would change under my name. As we thought the tax credit kind of knew that i was living over here, we left the tax credits till last and changed the income support and housing benefits under my name first. We also knew that we could have claimed more under a joint claim but that would have meant everything stopped at once and we would have no money to live on hence we thought that we would take less money rather than no money.

In may 2013 we received a letter from tax credit telling us that we have been Over paid from 31 October 2011 to January 2012. This was the period from which i got my NI number till the date we applied for the tax credit under joint claim.

We appealed against the decision which was turned down. We than tried to involve our MP who wrote the letter to tax credit and received the reply today saying that the overpayment is still due. Our MP asked them to apply the "NOTIONAL ENTITLEMENT" which was turned down as well.

It seems that the advice the wife was given about claiming as a single parent was under the table and the tax credit has totally denied any kind of advice given to my wife. However she must repay the overpayment of £2271.87, which occurred due to delay in her reporting her correct circumstances after 31 October 2011.
"In certain circumstances, we can apply 'Notional entitlement' where a customer has made a claim in the wrong capacity. However Mrs *****'s overpayment does not meet the criteria for Notional entitlement. Therefore, we are right to ask her to repay the overpayment."

From what i read over the Internet i thought Notional entitlement was applied as long as you have not gained from the situation, In our case we did not gain anything from claiming as a single person but actually lost money as we would be entitled to more under a joint claim.

I was wondering if anyone can help us and give us some advice. I do apologize for the long post and would be grateful if anyone can help us.

Thanks.

[Amber]

Dispute the overpayment on form TC846 (click)

Get a letter from your wife's GP stating that she suffers from depression and this effects her memory etc...

On the dispute ask them to deduct what you would have been entitled to as a couple for the period, you'll have to supply details of your employment etc.. and explain there was compelling circumstances due to your wife's health and that is situation is adding unnecessary pressure. Explain that your wife was told to claim as a single parent due to you not having a NI number and that given her mental state she did not argue.

I assume that you're now settled?

[mohmmad786]

I have searched over the internet and i have found some more information.



Notional Offsetting

Sometimes, tax credit claimants who form a couple or who become single, either because they separate or because one partner dies, are slow in reporting the change to HMRC or have been mistaken about the need to report such a change. Yet in many cases, if they had acted promptly they would have continued to be entitled to tax credits, albeit in a different capacity.

Until 18 January 2010, HMRC would recover the whole of any overpayment arising on the old claim, but give no credit for what the claimant would have received had they made a new claim at the right time.

From 18 January 2010, HMRC introduced a new policy whereby tax credits recipients who start to live together, or who become single after being part of a couple, but are late reporting the change to HMRC, can reduce the overpayment on their old claim by whatever they would have been entitled to had they made a new claim promptly.

This new policy applies to overpayments arising from 18 January 2010, but also to overpayments that were still outstanding as of that date. So, if an overpayment has been repaid in full prior to 18 January 2010, the new policy will not apply. However, if any part of it remains unpaid, offsetting can be applied to it.

To request notional offsetting, claimants should contact the tax credit helpline to ask for their case to be referred to the ‘notional offsetting (or notional entitlement)’ team in the Tax Credit Office. If no action is taken, a letter should be sent to CSSG, Tax Credit Office, Preston, PR1 4AT.

Note that the notional offsetting will not cover the one month (previously three months) by which the claimant will be able to backdate their new claim. Normally HMRC will grant the one month backdating automatically, but if that doesn’t happen, the claimant will need to ask for it.

On the whole HMRC policy is to be lenient and not charge a penalty where the failure to report has resulted from a mistake or misunderstanding. If HMRC think the claimant has been negligent in not reporting, and there is a net overpayment even after notional offsetting has been applied, the claimant may be charged a penalty against which there is a right of appeal.

If the failure to report is dishonest (considered by HMRC to be deliberate error), the penalty may well be substantial and in such cases notional offsetting will not be given. A list of what constitutes deliberate error is available in the HMRC compliance manual (CCM10750). The CCM also contains some examples of deliberate error (CCM10755). It is important that advisers challenge any cases where HMRC have classified the case as deliberate error on the basis that they have retrospectively decided, using credit reference data, that the claimant should have made a couple rather than single claim. Unless there is clear evidence that the claimant acted deliberately, then advisers should challenge the decision not to apply notional offsetting particularly if no penalty has been charged.

More information about notional offsetting can be found in the HMRC compliance manual. The manual covers three distinct periods, prior to 17 May 2007, between 17 May 2007 and 18 January 2010 and after 18 January 2010. This is because notional offsetting applied until May 2007 when it was withdrawn. It was reinstated in January 2010 following representations from LITRG and other organisations.

You can find information about couples and repayment of overpayments in our dealing with debt section.

http://www.revenuebenefits.org.uk/tax-c ... /#Notional Offsetting

[Amber]

You still need to dispute as above.

[mohmmad786]

Dispute the overpayment on form TC846 (click)

Get a letter from your wife's GP stating that she suffers from depression and this effects her memory etc...

On the dispute ask them to deduct what you would have been entitled to as a couple for the period, you'll have to supply details of your employment etc.. and explain there was compelling circumstances due to your wife's health and that is situation is adding unnecessary pressure. Explain that your wife was told to claim as a single parent due to you not having a NI number and that given her mental state she did not argue.

I assume that you're now settled?

My wife did dispute the first time but did not ask to apply Notional entitlement on the dispute form. I am settled now and have had 3 year residence permit and last month i got the second residence permit(4th years of living legally). I am not currently working but am in receive of carers allowance for my son as i look after him more than 40 hours a week.
Thanks.

[Amber]

Are you settled as in were you granted ILR or have PR? What is your immigration status?

[mohmmad786]

Are you settled as in were you granted ILR or have PR? What is your immigration status?

Its funny cause you were the one who gave me advice as i finished my 3 years residence permit and wanted to go for ILR but you advised me correctly to go for 3 more years of residence permit before i can apply for ILR. Thanks to you i applied for 3 years residence permit and got it last month.
Thanks.

[Amber]

Maybe, my memory is like a fish it seems and I seldom start trawling through previous posts. Yes you have the old DLR thus can claim public funds so the CA is ok to claim. Raise a dispute and include medical evidence of your wife's mental issues in addition explain it will cause hardship as you're income is limited to CA and that they should write off the overpayment.

[mohmmad786]

Just went on Child Poverty Action Group website in the section of Tax credits: offsetting overpayments.

http://www.cpag.org.uk/content/tax-cred ... erpayments

Example 2

Sophie is working part time and claiming CTC and working tax credit (WTC). On 12 October 2009 she is joined by her partner Charles who is an asylum seeker not entitled to work in the UK. Sophie does not notify the Revenue because it does not affect the amount of tax credits she is entitled to. She is therefore overpaid from 12 October 2009. Following advice from a CAB she notifies the change on 12 April 2010 and makes a new claim jointly with Charles which is backdated to 12 January and wipes out the overpayment from that date. Under the new policy, the outstanding overpayment from 12 October to 12 January is offset against the amount Sophie and Charles would have been entitled to as a couple from 12 October. As this is the same amount she received as a lone parent, she does not have to repay an overpayment.

The only difference between this example and our circumstances is that he was an asylum seeker and i am married to a British woman. GRRRRRR

[John]

My wife told tax credit on 30th march 2007 that she was wanted to change her single claim to joint claim but the problem was that they were asking for my national insurance number which i didn't had. In the end wife spoke to some kind of manager at tax credit office over the phone who advised that the only way to get tax credit is for her to claim as a single parent.

In the end? When was that? The reason I ask is this. The law changed on 06.04.09. From that date the requirement for a NI number to be supplied when a Tax Credits was made changed insofar as it :-

... does not apply to any person who is subject to immigration control within the meaning set out in section 115(9)(a) of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 and to whom a national insurance number has not been allocated.

-: and it seems to me that you fit that totally.

Source : Regulation 14 of The Tax Credits (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2009.

On 31 October I received my NI number

Which year?

In the HMRC Tax Credits Technical Manual, TCTM06100 - Claims and Notification: Making a claim, it includes :-

A claim can be made:

jointly by the members of a couple,
jointly by the members of a polygamous unit or,
singly by a person only if they are unable to make a joint claim under (a) or (b)

-: and to me if one party cannot supply a NINO, and thus a joint claim cannot be made (prior to 06.04.09) then a claim by the other spouse looks to be OK.

[Amber]

My wife told tax credit on 30th march 2007 that she was wanted to change her single claim to joint claim but the problem was that they were asking for my national insurance number which i didn't had. In the end wife spoke to some kind of manager at tax credit office over the phone who advised that the only way to get tax credit is for her to claim as a single parent.

In the end? When was that? The reason I ask is this. The law changed on 06.04.09. From that date the requirement for a NI number to be supplied when a Tax Credits was made changed insofar as it :-

... does not apply to any person who is subject to immigration control within the meaning set out in section 115(9)(a) of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 and to whom a national insurance number has not been allocated.

-: and it seems to me that you fit that totally.

Source : Regulation 14 of The Tax Credits (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2009.

On 31 October I received my NI number

Which year?

In the HMRC Tax Credits Technical Manual, TCTM06100 - Claims and Notification: Making a claim, it includes :-

A claim can be made:

jointly by the members of a couple,
jointly by the members of a polygamous unit or,
singly by a person only if they are unable to make a joint claim under (a) or (b)

-: and to me if one party cannot supply a NINO, and thus a joint claim cannot be made (prior to 06.04.09) then a claim by the other spouse looks to be OK.

The OP got his NI in October 2011, I assume the overpayment relates to a period after 2009 and the regulation changes when the claim should have been joint as its only ~£2300

[John]

Yes, but as you have just posted in another topic :-

I'm afraid many HMRC decision makers are ignorant of the rules.

-: and it entirely possible that someone would have got incorrect advice when phoning.

It seems to me that if after 06.04.09 they were saying that a NINO was required, they cannot now be taking action about the (incorrect) sole claim.

[Amber]

I agree John and the OP should argue that, as official/admin error is common place in the HMRC and given the claimants state, she was vulnerable, a strong letter with the dispute form should hopefully do the trick.

[mohmmad786]

In the end? When was that? The reason I ask is this. The law changed on 06.04.09. From that date the requirement for a NI number to be supplied when a Tax Credits was made changed insofar as it :-

My wife called and told them on 30th march 2007 and told them that she was married and applied for a joint claim. Tax credits asked for my(Husband) NI number which i didnt had. We actually contacted the job centre and tried to get a NI number for me. We even went to central london at job centre where i was turned down as i didnt had the relevant paper work and were told to wait till i receive the proper papers.

-: and it seems to me that you fit that totally.

Source : Regulation 14 of The Tax Credits (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2009.

Which year?

In the HMRC Tax Credits Technical Manual, TCTM06100 - Claims and Notification: Making a claim, it includes :-

I am really sorry and please please do not take it the wrong way but i cant understand much about these two thing .
And yes Amber is correct in saying that i got my NI number on 31st October 2011.

We didn't know anything about the regulations or wasnt told by anyone otherwise we would have let the tax credits know.

The OP got his NI in October 2011, I assume the overpayment relates to a period after 2009 and the regulation changes when the claim should have been joint as its only ~£2300

The Overpayment is from the day i got my NI number, 31 October 2011 till 25 January 2012. As 25 January 2012 was the date we put in for a joint claim. The problem was that my wife was suffering from a lot of illnesses at that time( She is currently on DLA) and on top of that we got a son who is Autistic (8 years old and still wear nappies). I didnt know much about the system and wife wasnt as strong. My wife knew that she could have got more money on a joint claim but decided that we would sort income support and housing benefit out and move them under my name. And because we didnt tell them for around 3 months the tax credit office wants to punish us for that.

Thanks alot guys, you dont know how much it means that you guys are trying to help us.

[John]

The Overpayment is from the day i got my NI number, 31 October 2011 till 25 January 2012.

However she must repay the overpayment of £2271.87

Are you sure? That amount of "overpayment" in just three months?

[mohmmad786]

Are you sure? That amount of "overpayment" in just three months?

Yes it is only 3 months as we had my son and two step sons living with us with my son's disablity premium added in the tax credit. The letter we received from tax credit also state that it is from 31 October 2011 till 25 January 2012.
Thanks

[Amber]

Yes the disability element can increase the award by quite a lot. Moreover, if there was a change of circumstance (the 2 step children) then that is further evidence that the claim should have been changed to joint. Let us know how you get on with the dispute.

[mohmmad786]

Thanks, you both been really helpful. Can we ask one more favour? can you help us in writing a letter/appeal to tax credit PLEASE as we dont know how to write the whole thing

[John]

Yes I could do that. Message sent to you.

[mohmmad786]

Yes I could do that. Message sent to you.

Did you pm me bro? sorry i don't think i have received any pm.

[mohmmad786]

Hey John, was just wondering if you got around to doing that letter? Thanks.

[mohmmad786]

I was wondering if anyone has seen john as i am still waiting for him to help me with the letter. He might be really busy and might have not seen my messages so if anyone could PLEASE give him the message to contact me.
Thanks

[Amber]

He's around often and I'm sure he's seen this. However, send him a PM.

[mohmmad786]

Hello again, First of all sorry to bring this thread back again but i thought ill keep this thread rather than opening a new one.
We sent tax credit the letter which Amber(Thankyou very much) helped us with. Now its been more than two months and we have not heard anything back from tax credits. I was wondering if we should still wait for them to reply or should we ask them about what they are doing regarding that case. I would have contacted the MP but in all honesty i got more trust in you guys than my local mp. Its only that i have heard alot of stories where the tax credits dont reply but after few months or even years they would send a nasty letter asking for the money back. I would be thankful if you could give us some more advice please.
Thanks.

[Amber]

Contact them by phone and ask them for an update. Say if nothing has been done you will have no option but to escalate the complaint to the Ombudsman.