5 PCN's - should I wait ?

[rahulhomes]

I'm planning to apply for British citizenship on 1st Oct. I have ILR for 1 year now and I think I tick all the boxes for getting through.

however I had 5 PCN in month of Feb 2013 for parking my car on double line. The 5 PCN's actually related to same offence( or situation). I had parked my car on Sunday and it was there through the week. I had no idea that I was getting PCN's daily. I saw all the PCN's only on following Saturday and promptly moved my car.

Hence do you think it would be categorized as single Fixed Penalty or it could impact the decision ?

Also my company has an opportunity in USA and I wish to go for few years in near future hence want to get the process completed asap?

Hence want to ask if anyone was in similar situation and what was the outcome? or any other suggestion?

thanks

[Amber]

See the Good Character FAQ (Click)

I am currently awaiting an update whether a PCN/PND would be treated akin to a FPN as the guidance is not clear. I expect an update soon and the FAQ will be updated upon a response.

[rahulhomes]

Thanks Guru. Appreciate your quick response.

Can u please let us know all when you get any response. I appreciate this Forum and their member, which i found very useful and informative.

Thank You

[Spidery_thread]

PCN's are enforced in the UK as civil rather than a criminal matter – a PCN doesn't result in a criminal record or points on your licence.

Therefore it won't affect any one's ILR or Naturalisation application.

Even if unpaid, a PCN penalty will be treated as a civil debt and the enforcement authority will endeavour to recover this through the county court system. Ultimately this can result in a visit from the bailiff if the debt remains unpaid.[/img]

[Amber]

Civil matters can also be a reason for refusal (I.e. debts with no intention to repay) the guidance is not specific but yes, I think the issue only relates to police issued FPNs rather than the broader scope of FPNs. However, I'll know for sure when I get a response from the nationality criminality team.

[VR]

All,

I followed up on this situation personally and am passing on my knowledge so that folks can have a clear picture of this Parking on Double line.

A neighbour of mine had just moved in from up north to Bedfordshire. He promptly paid for a Annual Parking Pass and was issued one which was affixed to his windscreen.

The guy was driving down to and from work in London daily. Every day for about a week he found yellow PCN notices affixed on his Windsreen pasted directly above the Parking Permit.

Since it was a citizen's issue I accompanied the gent to the Local Council parking office to argue his case. The permits were issued for On road parking. Note Parking had to be paid on an hourly basis or one should have a parking permit to park in the on road bays till 6PM mondays to saturdays. Sunday was free for everyone.

Daily when he reached home back from work about 5.45 all the parking bays were occupied. People made it a practise to pay for 30 mins and leave their cars beyond the 6pm until late at night and residents were denied parking bays for no fault of theirs. This poor man parked on double yellows in front of the flat so that he could keep an eye on his car from the 1st floor and got docked for it. Same thing on Saturday morning he could not get up before 8:00AM and move his car into a bay and got docked.

The Parking office refused to accept his case. Parking was at a premium in City Centres and buying a permit did not mean he was authorized to park on double yellow lines. He was given an option to appeal(which they said would fail and he would have to go to court and also pay a fine and costs).
They said the best option was to pay it withing 28days at a reduced rate and be done with it.

This expat pleaded his case and wrote a mail to them saying it would affect his British Naturalization application,which was due in a month . The Response from the council was ''This was a Civil penalty for a minor offence and the details of these collections was not shared with anyone,even the local police, let alone the home office''. They also offered to give any evidence in favor of his good character should any case worker raise any objections if he decided to disclose. They also advised him not to disclose this and pay and get it over with, which he did. Subsequently his application was a success. This was about 8 months ago.

Conclusion: Pay the fine quickly at the reduced rate. Do not take it to court. Do not disclose this (as that gent did). In the case of that gent the council accepted that it was not fair on the residents and alloted him an off road parking bay after deliberating with their higher ups.

I think this is different from FPN for speeding or other forms of serious traffic violations. The notice should read PCN (Penalty Charge Notice) which is a civil one NOT A CRIMINAL ONE. A FPN can only be issued by a Police Officer. Appeals are heard in the magistrate court. Its a way of avoiding going to court by paying a fine and admitting a guilt.

PCN appeals are heard by the council and a group of people usually solicitors appointed for the purpose.

DO NOT DECLARE. Just go ahead and apply in confidence.
cheers
vr

[Amber]

All pretty much correct VR however, accepting a FPN is not an admittance of guilt. Thus, receiving a FPN, PCN or PND does not form part of a person's criminal record as there is no admission of guilt. This changes if someone is summoned for a FPN (issued by the police) in such cases, upon guilt (admission or found) the person will have a criminal conviction. The Good Character guidance re: PCN/PND is not clear thus why I have again requested clarification. On another note, the changes which I requested for suspended sentences should be appearing in the new AN guide, I am actually surprised they took notice and I am waiting to see the new October guide with anticipation.

[VR]

Dear Amber,

Full credit to you on the suspended sentences guidance. I cannot express in words how much the work you did on this is worth its weight in gold.

This is a country with a warped socialism, full of public sector jobs worth that throw the book at others drowned in their drums of ignorance yet interpreting things in whatever way they want fully conscious of the lack of accountability that protects them.

The journey of migrants is fraught with uncertainity and sacrifices, many losses and disappointments in a new environment. Sadly the stupid politicians think everyone comes here for a better life, in search of economic salvation. It might have been true for the migrants that came to drive buses or work in the rail roads in the 50's.

My generation of migrants have travelled the world, we have more wealth than what many of the residents here can only dream of. We migrated here because we were invited for our skills, not because we did not have opportunities elsewhere. Then the idiots fail to plan the impact of european migration and throw in stupid rules to delay the journey further for many who have worked hard, paid their taxes and never depended on the government for a single pence.

When I saw the guide, I felt violated and was determined to do everything to make sure the wrong guidance/intrepretation whereever I saw it was taken up through whatever means possible. you were God sent. You managed to put this demon to rest where many of the so called leading solicitors are still wallowing in their ignorance and wrong pointers they got from stupid case workers. GOD BLESS YOU!
vr

[VR]

All,

Amber has rightly pointed out that FPN is not an admission of guilt. I did not mean to say that it would be an admission of guilt that would lead to a criminal record. I wanted to say that it was a civil matter, accept whatever they throw at you and move on. English is not my mother tongue and I am slowly getting there and learning to convey what is intended. Thanks Amber, I shall pay more attention when I post.
cheers
vr

[rahulhomes]

Thanks Guys, I will go ahead with my application and let all know on how it goes.

[rahulhomes]

Dear Amber,

Have you got clarity with respect to PCN's treated as FPN's for Good Character Requirement?

Thanks

[Amber]

I expect the new guidance in October.

[rahulhomes]

Just wanted to share my experience so it helps other people who are in same situation.

I went to my NCS appointment last week and they refused to take my application!!! I did not believe this!!!

I just did a write-up on page 13 stating my situation and why the parking is not multiple offence. The person there told that this should be ok and bla bla.. But then she called up home office to ask about the tickets. and they told that they are not sure and approval would be given based on case workers discretion. On that the NCS advisor told that they only send application where its 100% sure that it will go through and hence cannot take my application.

[VR]

Rahulhomes,

If you have a US opportunity , time is money and you need to act quickly.You cant allow things to prolong thanks to the ambiguity and ignorance of caseworkers and multiple interpretations. As per the new guidance even if 1 year is over they can still look at the 5 and decline.
I shall suggest an alternate option. PM me.
cheers
vr

[Amber]

The new guidance remains ambiguous however, PCNs and PNDs should not create a refusal unless there are for offences such as Drugs and Violence.

However, the caseworker will always have the discretion to reject so perhaps waiting until a year has lapsed would be a consideration.

[Heisgood]

The new guidance remains ambiguous however, PCNs and PNDs should not create a refusal unless there are for offences such as Drugs and Violence.

However, the caseworker will always have the discretion to reject so perhaps waiting until a year has lapsed would be a consideration.

VR and Amber - This good character requirements is really wreaking havoc with the new guidance even more ambiguous. Are we now saying you have to declare parking tickets (PCNs) on your application? I have no parking tickets in the last 12mths (Thank God), however I think this point need some clarity for all possible applicants. For someone to waste a year of their life because of incorrect interpretation by NCS or HO is not good. I appreciate you guys input.

[VR]

Heisgood,

I came to Britain with dreams. I never imagined that this place could be so full of redtape, labrynth of laws, labrynth of regulations and a whole bunch of good for nothings making money out of it.

Look closely and you will notice that there exists deliberate ambiguity in most of the rules. Whether it is an immigration issue or a planning permission, inevitably it leads to some ''Jobsworth expert'' ready to drink your blood and make his moolah.

Yes its frustrating. But you cant do much. And there is talk that they are planning to opt out of the Human Rights Conventions soon.

Would they cut the benefits of a Passport holder if he incurs 5 pcns for 3 years? I guess not. It is wrong that different yardsticks are applied in a discriminatory manner against hardworking immigrants.

I know there is a way out. His case can go through. I have asked him to PM me.
cheers
vr

[imran22]

Hi

So if i don't have any kind of penalty in last one year am i ok? I did get few PCNs for parking in previous years and one for taking a wrong turn in the past but that was all more than a year ago. I don't even have the details for all these.

Am I ok not to mention anything? Also I didn't have anything since my ILR so can i safely assume that i dont have to declare anything

Thanks

[VR]

Imran 22,

The latest guidance is as below

Fixed Penalty Notices, Penalty Charge Notices and Penalty Notices for Disorder are imposed by the Police or other authorised enforcement officers for traffic rule violations, environmental and civil violations. It is a way of the criminal justice system disposing of fairly minor offences without the need for a person to attend court. Receiving one does not form part of a person‟s criminal record, as there is no admission of guilt.
The decision maker will not consider these unless the person has:
a. failed to pay and there were criminal proceedings as a result; or
b. received numerous fixed penalty notices which would suggest a pattern of behaviour that calls into question their character.
Where a fixed penalty notice or fiscal fine has been referred to a court due to non-payment or the notice has been unsuccessfully challenged by the person in court, the decision maker will consider this as a conviction and assessed in line with the new sentence imposed.

---------------------------

Since you have a clear year without FPN you can apply but disclose the past FPN on your application to avoid being rejected on the ground of deception.

Ignore the PCN's and make sure you do not get any more. I presume you settled all the above without any going to court.

Good Luck
vr

[imran22]

Imran 22,
Since you have a clear year without FPN you can apply but disclose the past FPN on your application to avoid being rejected on the ground of deception.

Ignore the PCN's and make sure you do not get any more. I presume you settled all the above without any going to court.

Good Luck
vr

Thanks for reply VR. I have paid all the fines immediately never went to court.

Are FPNs not issued by the police? I was never issued anything by Police only parking wardens and once from a traffic enformcement camera when i took a wrong left turn which was not allowed. Can any of those be FPN?

[VR]

The one's issued by Parking wardens are the PCN's which you racked up multiple times. Ignore those.

FPN is the one from the Traffic Camera. Mention it in the Form.
cheers
vr

[imran22]

The one's issued by Parking wardens are the PCN's which you racked up multiple times. Ignore those.

FPN is the one from the Traffic Camera. Mention it in the Form.
cheers
vr

Thanks again VR

You gave me a big shock when you said the penalty I got from camera was a FPN. Luckily I found that notice at home issued at 27/10/10 and on the top it says Penalty Charge Notice. That was a relief to me. I was issued another PCN on 12/08/12 which was cancelled 31/08/12.

So I assume now I don't have to declare any of those?

[VR]

Imran22,

If its PCN ignore it. Maybe a money making venture of the council in your domicile.
cheers
vr

[rahulhomes]

If you have a US opportunity , time is money and you need to act quickly.You cant allow things to prolong thanks to the ambiguity and ignorance of caseworkers and multiple interpretations. As per the new guidance even if 1 year is over they can still look at the 5 and decline.
I shall suggest an alternate option. PM me.

Thanks for your reply. I just had 1 question that if my application is rejected then how soon I can reapply ? Is there a cooling off period where I cannot apply again?

Thanks

[VR]

If they reject your application
they will communicate the reason with you.
You will have a chance to make an administrative appeal.(Basically internally somebody else will look at whether the decision arrived at was appropriate)

Even if you were to wait a year and apply with a clear period......
The latest guidance has confused matters.
You have 5PCN's which can be held against you as a pattern of offending.
Given the amount of confusion you have experienced at NCS you should know the state of affairs at the Border Agency and the fact that you are at the mercy of these jobsworth caseworkers and their interpretation of the law.

PM me I shall discuss with you in confidence a way out.
Best Regards,
vr