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going to france without a schengen visa

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toptip
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going to france without a schengen visa

Post by toptip » Thu May 24, 2007 11:41 am

hello all,
i need some impartial advice. i know this is best guess stuff, and no one can advise me to break the law, but here goes.

im on a south african passport with permant residency in the UK. im married to an Irish national, and my son was born in the UK. I have some family visiting us, who want to go to France for a short break. the problem is i cant get a schengen visa in time. we plan to go on the ferry from dover to calais, and then return 5 days later. all 4 people ill be travelling with are on British/EU passports.

do i risk going without a schengen visa? i'm pretty sure they dont check my passport on the way over from england (at least they havent the last few times i went on the ferry), but they do check it leaving france. what is the worst that can happen if they see i dont have a schengen visa for this trip (bear in mind i've had about a dozen schengen visas before).

would i be best off saying ive lost my passport and showing my driving licence with photo ID that shows my UK address, but not my nationality?

any advise or suggestions very much welcomed. we are meant to leave for the holiday in 2 days time, so i dont have long to decide on this.

cheers!!

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Re: going to france without a schengen visa

Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Thu May 24, 2007 3:42 pm

toptip wrote:im on a south african passport with permanent residency in the UK.
What kind of permanent residency do you have in the UK? Is it one based on your marriage to an EU citizen (a Permanent Residence Card or whatever it used to be called), or is it the UK law ILR?

Have you read through Directive 2004/38/EC?

toptip
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Post by toptip » Thu May 24, 2007 4:46 pm

Hi,
Thanks for your reply. I have been permanent resident in the UK since 1991. I came in as a dependant on my father (under 18yrs old), and have since stayed in the UK and got married to an Irish lady nearly 2 and a half years ago.

Do you think the directive you mentioned will help? If so, which parts should I look at?

Thanks for your help!

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Fri May 25, 2007 9:11 am

Let me summarize your problem, as I understand it:
* You are South African and normally require a visa to enter France.
* You will be travelling soon with your British spouse to France and the French embassy is not able to issue you the visa in time for your travel

The good thing is that European Directive 2004/38/EC, on right of movement in the EU for citizens and their family, specifically addresses entering an EU country if you do not have a required visa.
Directive 2004/38/EC
Article 5. Right of Entry

4. Where a Union citizen, or a family member who is not a national of a Member State, does not have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State concerned shall, before turning them back, give such persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain the necessary documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable period of time or to corroborate or prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movement and residence.
I expect you will have no problem. The only problem is if the French are on duty in Dover and so the concept of "turning you back" may be unclear. If you find a French border guard on entering France, you may have to explain to them what rights you are exercising (I would guess that would last an hour or so), but I should hope it is nothing that should stop you from enjoying your French holiday.

You will need to be travelling with your EU citizen spouse, you will both definitely need to be carrying valid passports, and you must carry your marriage certificate. (Did you get married in the EU and is the certificate in a major European language?)

You have to be well prepared (with your documentation), and carefully preread the part of Directive 2004/38/EC will allows you to enter France even if you do not have the normally required visa.

I would strongly suggest you take a copy of Directive 2004/38/EC in English and in French. You can find the Directive and related material at http://eumovement.wordpress.com/directive-200438ec/

Finally you might want to take advantage of the legal advice service of the European Commission http://ec.europa.eu/citizensrights/ It is free and you can then print the result and take it with you.

Finally, I would always carry the phone numbers of the British Embassy Out-of-hours Emergency Consular Service. Call them if you have a problem which you are unable to resolve with quiet reasoned discussion.
In the event of a serious consular problem, please contact the Duty Officer:
In the Paris Area: 01 44 51 31 00
In the Bordeaux Area: 05 57 22 21 10
In the Lille Area: 03 20 12 82 72 (This is in the area of northern france)
In the Lyon Area: 04 72 77 81 70
In the Marseille Area: 04 91 15 72 10

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Post by Dawie » Fri May 25, 2007 11:25 am

toptip wrote:Hi,
Thanks for your reply. I have been permanent resident in the UK since 1991. I came in as a dependant on my father (under 18yrs old), and have since stayed in the UK and got married to an Irish lady nearly 2 and a half years ago.

Do you think the directive you mentioned will help? If so, which parts should I look at?

Thanks for your help!
Can I also ask, if you have had permanent residency since 1991, why haven't you yet applied for British citizenship? It would make your life a lot easier!
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

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Post by JAJ » Fri May 25, 2007 3:22 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote: Finally, I would always carry the phone numbers of the British Embassy Out-of-hours Emergency Consular Service.
Wife is an Irish citizen. Unless she has taken out British citizenship, the Embassy will be unable to help.

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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Fri May 25, 2007 4:13 pm

JAJ wrote:
Directive/2004/38/EC wrote: Finally, I would always carry the phone numbers of the British Embassy Out-of-hours Emergency Consular Service.
Wife is an Irish citizen. Unless she has taken out British citizenship, the Embassy will be unable to help.
Actually, as his children are British subjects and travelling with British passports, it is worth keeping the British Embassy numbers also available. Be sure to travel with the children's birth certificates.

But you are very right JAJ. Contact information for the Irish embassy is:
Embassy of Ireland
Telephone: ++33 1 4417 6700
Out of hours emergency assistance: ++33 1 44 17 67 00.

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Post by JAJ » Fri May 25, 2007 6:16 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:[
Actually, as his children are British subjects and travelling with British passports, it is worth keeping the British Embassy numbers also available. Be sure to travel with the children's birth certificates.
His child is a British citizen (not a British subject) but the birth certificate won't prove anything. Child should have a British citizen passport.

The most likely problem in this scenario will be the commercial carrier refusing him permission to board a France bound ferry without a Schengen visa. So no chance even to get to French immigration.

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Post by toptip » Sat May 26, 2007 7:00 am

everyone,
thanks for all your help. ive tried calling the french consulate in london - no joy, everything is automated. but, the ferry company gave me the number for french immigration in dover. i explained the situation to them, and they said to bring all of my paperwork (passports for the family as my son has a British passport, marriage certificates, proof of return travel and accomodation, bank statements, employment letters etc.) and this should help get me through. however, the lady i spoke to wouldnt give me her name or a reference for the conversation, in case she was wrong. basically it's worth the risk, so im going to try it. i wont enter france unless the french immigration in dover allow it, so technically i wont break the rules. the alternative is to forfeit ferry bookings and monies already paid for the accomodation, which is too much. if i make it back without getting thrown in jail, ill post a reply.
thanks again...

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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Sat May 26, 2007 7:32 am

Remember that you have a right of free movement in the EU, as long as you are travelling with your EU spouse. Enjoy your rights and enjoy France!

If nobody is at the office in Dover when you arrive, you still have a right of free movement!

And remember to carry printed copies of the Directive in French and English.

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Indefinity leave to remain - Visum - France

Post by meeperd » Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:43 am

Further to the messages above I also would like some help please. The feedback that was given was spot on and could not have been better - well done!

My situation is this: Me & my wife have South African passports & are in the UK on indefinite leave to remain - obtained recently (after our 5 years on a work permit). We are planning to sail with friends on their yacht to France. We'll get there on the evening. We are leaving again the next morning comming back to the UK.

My questions are:
1) Do we need a Visa
2) Could we get off the yacht and do some sight seeing in the harbour area? We will only be there for like 18 hours.

Any feedback will be greatly appreciated

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Post by jay9za » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:33 pm

Hi

New to this forum so need a bit of advice please - My husband and I are going to the Netherlands (I hope) for my sister's wedding in july. My husband is South African with a British passport and I have my indefinite leave to remain for the U.K. I can't get an appointment at any Schengen embassy before the 20th July and have spent a fortune phoning those bl**dy automated pound a minute visa appointment booking systems. :evil:

Have used links below (very helpful) but just want to know if anyone has tried to enter the Netherlands having permanent U.K. residence but no Schengen visa.

Just out of curiosity - does anyone know whether it is possible to report these "pound a minute" phone lines to OFCOM for possible cartel investigations? Long shot but worth a try maybe...

Thanks for any help. :)

toptip
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Post by toptip » Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:23 am

hi all,
thought i would post an update. we got into france and back without any problems. a few strange looks by the french authorities, but once they saw my wife's irish/eu passport and our marriage certificate, they just waived us through.

i wouldnt recommend arranging trips without a valid schengen visa, but it looks like the advice was right and as long as you are travelling with a spouse that is an eu citizen, they should allow entry. good luck to whoever tries it.

ps. it may be more difficult flying to europe without a visa. the first person who checks your eligibility to travel is the airline rep. the airlines get fined if they allow anyone to travel without the correct visa. but then again, if they dont let you go when you have the right to travel with your spouse, i guess they could face being sued by you.

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Post by Fairtrade » Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:54 am

Excellent news Toptip, so there you have it now straight from the horses mouth: Non EU nationals (in this case a south african) can travel without a schengnen visa with their EU spouse.

But it is ALWAYS recommended to have a schengen visa, will save a lot of hassle at the border!!

Great to hear you have made it through the schengen border without a visa Toptip!! 8)

Proof that Directive 2004/38/EC is being implemented.

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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:50 pm

It is always good to hear the law is being implemented properly! Hope you had a really nice trip.

German border guards I talked with said the same thing, but I don't even think they would give you a funny look.

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