Can I trust advice from Irish Consulate?

[nohinsara]

I just spoke with someone at the Irish Consulate in Canada, and wondering if what they told me is actually true!

I began the call asking if my status as a British National would cause problems for my husband if he applied for an Irish Green Card (Because that's what I was thinking we'd have to apply for in light of the whole EU1 nonsense). I was told that we shouldn't apply for anything here from Canada, rather I should simply:

- go with my husband and child over to Ireland (enter without visa)
- report to a garda office with all passports and marriage certificate get stamp
- begin working or search for work without the need of a labour market needs test.

She made it all sound very simple and straight forward. Because my husband is married to me he shouldn't have any trouble, and because he wants to work with the same company as he does now, the company can begin the (quick) process of getting him a work permit straight away, even though it will not be a company transfer.

I don't know, alarm bells are going off in my head... does it sound too easy? Am I being too paranoid - should I just trust that advice and go?

[kevarms]

That's similar to what the Irish Embassy in Tokyo told my wife and me. They made it sound oh so simple. But after she arrived in Ireland we found out that we have to have lived together in an EU country first. I don't think that between them the Justice Dept, GNIB and embassies know what the hell they are doing. Once the election is resolved I will be firing off a few letters.

[joesoap101]

In fact, the info from the Embassies are correct. It is simply the government who is too incompetent to make clear and coherent policies- rather they do their best to confuse and frustrate people by breaching EU law.

[cartaverde]

Kevarms, I sent you a pm ...

[nohinsara]

Well that's quite worrying. This woman I spoke to made it all seem so simple and straight forward. When I sounded doubtful and mentioned the "troubles with the EU1" business she said quite frankly that she had heard no such thing.

So I'm back to the start then. I should get my husband to try to apply for a Green Card or Work Permit before we leave. But that brings up other issues. I have seen the application form and it does ask if the spouse of the applicant is an EU national. In our case, that's affirmative. I'm worried that saying yes on that part of the application is going to cause problems for us... There doesn't seem to be any way to tell!

[cartaverde]

Can you consider Britain instead, nohinsara? Not 100 % sure that you would have to go thru this same EU1 BS than most of us here, but when it looks likely, UK does seem a lot better place..

[nohinsara]

Can you consider Britain instead, nohinsara? Not 100 % sure that you would have to go thru this same EU1 BS than most of us here, but when it looks likely, UK does seem a lot better place..

Oh how I wish I could. I miss the UK very much and would be very happy to go there. The reason we are set on Ireland is my husband's work. He's more open to heading there because he is assured he would have a job with the company. Seeing as I look after our young son and he would be the breadwinner, we must go where he is assured a decent paid job... in this case Dublin.

I'm looking at the option of living in Northern Ireland, and having him commute to work on the trains. That opens up a whole other can of worms though I'm afraid.

[cartaverde]

You could go and live in Northern Ireland one week together before heading to Dublin. Document the one week residency (there does not seem to be a time limit). That way you would have lived in another EU country so after the 6+ months they would have to give it to you for that reason. Unless they would straighten the rules in that time, but not worth risking.

Daily commute sounds like a bit far to do Dublin - N.I. Weekend commuting perhaps ... or Ryanair commute depending on salary and costs. Or dedicate the 6 months for taking care of the son.

[Erik84]

I am currently having the following email exchange with the Irish embassy in Sweden. My last email was sent a few minutes ago - this is actually getting interesting:


-------------------------
Dear Sir or Madam,

I am a Swedish citizen living in Dublin and working for an investment bank. My wife is a citizen of Xxx in West Africa and she currently lives with me in Dublin. My wife holds a resident permit to Sweden and is currently in the process of applying for an Irish residence card as the spouse of an EU citizen through the "Form EU1 Application for a residence card Non-EEA family member".

We are now planning a short trip to Stockholm to meet friends and relatives. The problem is that my wife will not be able to return with me to Ireland as she has no re-entry visa in her passport. So, I would like to ask you if she can she apply for visa to Ireland while she is in Stockholm, how long time it would take to process such an application and if it is possible to obtain a multiple-entry visa so we can travel more freely between Sweden and Ireland while her EU1 application is pending.

I am not sure whether it is best to apply for a spouse or a tourist visa. When my wife entered Ireland she came on a Spouse visa, but if a tourist visa can be obtained quicker and doesnt affect the EU1 process that might be a better option.

Kind Regards
Xxx Xxxx
--------------------------------
Dr Mr Xxxx,

I sought advice from the visa section in Dublin since it was an unusal query for us at the Embassy.
The reply I got is that you can use the letter from the EU Treaty Rights section to travel between the member states while waiting for your EU1 application to be processed. As this issue falls under General Immigration rather than the Visa Section it would be better for you to confirm this with General Immigration, EU treaty rights section, their helpline number is 01 6167700, then option 3.
Kind regards,

Xxxx Xxxxx

Embassy of Ireland
Östermalmsgatan 97, 4th floor
Box 10326
100 55 Stockholm
Tel: + 46 8 661 8005
Fax: + 46 8 660 1353
Email: stockholmembassy@dfa.ie
------------------------------


Dear Xxxx,

Thank you for your quick reply. I am afraid it is not possible to travel between member states as suggested
by the EU Treaty Rights section for the following reasons:

1) We have not received any letter from the EU treaty rights section acknowledging my wife's application.
I do not think the EU Treaty Rights section sends such letters - at least that's my impression from a few other people
that I know who are also waiting for an EU1 application to be processed. What we have is a copy of the EU1 application,
a receipt from sending it with registered mail, and a letter from the EU Treaty Rights section in which my wife's and my
original id-documents were returned. This last letter basically only states "Please find your id-documents enclosed".
Since I do not have the opportunity to spend the time required in the telephone queue to get through to the helpline
and my wife doesn't speak English well enough to call herself yet, and the EU treaty Rights section does not respond to emails,
the only option is to send a regular mail to the EU Treaty Rights section and ask them to send us the letter you mention.
Unfortunately, since the EU Treaty Rights section appears to have quite a heavy workload,
I would expect to wait a month or so to get a reply. It took more than a month for them to return our original id-documents.

2) Given that we have a letter from the EU Treaty Rights section, I still don't think any air company would allow my wife to board a flight
to Ireland unless she has a valid entry visa. Air companies are subject to significant fines if they take on passengers who do not have
the right to enter the destination country, and they do not take any chances.

3) Given that we have reached the Irish border - travelling over seas without passing the UK somehow - I doubt the Garda at the border would
allow my wife to enter the country. She has had a multiple entry visa to Ireland for a while, and even then she had a very hard time entering the
country. Upon entry the Garda at the Dublin airport were saying that she needed to register with GNIB and that they werent sure they could let her
in without having registered. We tried to explain that she cannot register until the EU1 application has been granted, but they did not quite believe us.
After an hour of questions, taking her photo, they finally let my wife into Ireland, but if she hadnt had a visa I doubt she would have been let in.

So essentially, until my wife's EU1 application has been processed we will not be visiting Sweden. The risk of my wife not being able to return to
Ireland is too great.

On the other hand, if the EU1 application is denied we will both move to Sweden. The thing is, at the moment it looks as if applicants who have not
resided in another EU country prior to their EU1 application generally find their applications denied. We have been married for three years and my wife has
been to Sweden on tourist visa 7 times (if I recall correctly) prior to moving to Ireland, and she is a politican and she has even made a speech in the Swedish
parliament. I'm afraid however, that none of this will help her EU1 application.

So I have a bit of a follow-up question here: If my wife's EU1 application is rejected and we move to Sweden and live there for a while, and I choose to move
back to Ireland - after all, we quite like it here in Dublin and unlike Sweden the opportunities in the banking sector are terrific. In this case, can my wife apply for a
spouse visa to Ireland at the Irish embassy in Stockholm?

Thank you very much for taking your time to answer!

Kind Regards
Xxxx Xxxx

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I just spoke with someone at the Irish Consulate in Canada, and wondering if what they told me is actually true!

I began the call asking if my status as a British National would cause problems for my husband if he applied for an Irish Green Card (Because that's what I was thinking we'd have to apply for in light of the whole EU1 nonsense). I was told that we shouldn't apply for anything here from Canada, rather I should simply:

- go with my husband and child over to Ireland (enter without visa)
- report to a garda office with all passports and marriage certificate get stamp
- begin working or search for work without the need of a labour market needs test.

She made it all sound very simple and straight forward. Because my husband is married to me he shouldn't have any trouble, and because he wants to work with the same company as he does now, the company can begin the (quick) process of getting him a work permit straight away, even though it will not be a company transfer.

This is the way moving to a new EU country is supposed to work. The only variation is supposed to be when the n on-EU spouse is somebody who requires a visa, then they need to apply for it before travelling. Great that at least the embassies are starting to take this seriously!

Did you tell them that you were the EU citizen and your non-EU husband was the one who was going to be working?

[nohinsara]

Erik84 - I will be very interested to see if you get a reply and what they will say to you!

This is the way moving to a new EU country is supposed to work. The only variation is supposed to be when the n on-EU spouse is somebody who requires a visa, then they need to apply for it before travelling. Great that at least the embassies are starting to take this seriously!

Did you tell them that you were the EU citizen and your non-EU husband was the one who was going to be working?

Yes, I did mention that he would have to be the one working, and that I was worried because of all the trouble people are having with the EU1. She came off in her attitude to me as completely oblivious that there was anything wrong with the application process, and I got the impression that she thought I was being silly to even think it.

That's why I'm confused. It just seems so strange to me that we are being lied to straight up by our embassies. They MUST know what's going on with the DOJ. Why wouldn't they warn me?

You could go and live in Northern Ireland one week together before heading to Dublin. Document the one week residency (there does not seem to be a time limit). That way you would have lived in another EU country so after the 6+ months they would have to give it to you for that reason. Unless they would straighten the rules in that time, but not worth risking.

Daily commute sounds like a bit far to do Dublin - N.I. Weekend commuting perhaps ... or Ryanair commute depending on salary and costs.

Thank you for this idea... as silly as it sounds to document one week residency in NI It looks like that's what we might end up doing, providing they don't change the rules on us. Just curious as to how I go about documenting such a thing though?

Or dedicate the 6 months for taking care of the son

Not sure what you mean here. You mean stay in Northern Ireland for 6 months with my husband and son without employment?

[Platinum]

I have to say I'm skeptical of this "living" in Northern Ireland or the rest of the UK for a few days, and claiming this as "residency" on the EU form.

Now, I now that's what the UK law says: residency is simply lawfully staying in the country, but we all know the Irish do not have much respect for what the EU says. I don't know that they would accept the UK definition of "residency" either.

It may be doable, of course. But before you do it, I'd try to get someone at the Irish Dept. of Justice to say that staying in the UK for a few days will count as residency. In fact, get it in writing! (Ha! Good luck!) It would be useful, as a matter of fact, for someone to ask the DoJ exactly what constitutes proof of previous residency in another EU country. Hotel bills? An actual residency card? A residency stamp in your passport?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I have to say I'm skeptical of this "living" in Northern Ireland or the rest of the UK for a few days, and claiming this as "residency" on the EU form.

Now, I now that's what the UK law says: residency is simply lawfully staying in the country, but we all know the Irish do not have much respect for what the EU says. I don't know that they would accept the UK definition of "residency" either.

This definition of residency is not unique to the UK. It is part of the European wide Directive 2004/38/EC. And is now in Irish law. From S.I. No. 656 of 2006 - European Communities (Free Movement of Persons) (No. 2) Regulations 2006

Residence in the State
6. (1) Subject to Regulation 20, a person to whom these Regulations apply may reside in the State for up to 3 months on condition that he or she -
(a) (i) where the person is a Union citizen, holds a valid national identity card or passport,
(ii) where the person is not a Union citizen, holds a valid passport, and
(b) does not become an unreasonable burden on the social welfare system of the State.
(2) (a) Subject to Regulation 20, a Union citizen may reside in the State for a period longer than 3 months if he or she - [...]

It may be doable, of course. But before you do it, I'd try to get someone at the Irish Dept. of Justice to say that staying in the UK for a few days will count as residency. In fact, get it in writing! (Ha! Good luck!) It would be useful, as a matter of fact, for someone to ask the DoJ exactly what constitutes proof of previous residency in another EU country. Hotel bills? An actual residency card? A residency stamp in your passport?

This is the wrong approach (and in any case you will never get somebody at Justice to say). Unfortunately, until there is clear a clear ruling or case law against their position, they will not change their official line or procedures.

You do not need to ask permission for this. And if you do they will most likely never answer. You need to do it, and document it in a very clear way. Then write to them and force them to take the risk of turning you down when it has all been documented in writing and they can understand the legal argument and have no space to say no.

I was just helped a friend with an Irish visa application. She left four questions on the application form unanswered ("ALL QUESTIONS MUST BE ANSWERED") and did not provide them with the “REQUIREDâ€

[Platinum]

It is part of the European wide Directive 2004/38/EC. And is now in Irish law.

Yeah, and the Irish have been absolutely scrupulous in their interpretation of that specific EU directive.

If that worked, that would be awesome. If I were just applying with an EU1 now, I'd try it. There's nothing to lose. As it is, however (coming up to six months since I sent in the EU1), I'm sick of it all. I'll send a complaint to SOLVIT as soon as my six months is up, but we've already decided we'll move.

I just can't live in a place where they are so cavalier about basic immigration and human rights issues such as this (or I'd move home to the States!). If we had no other choice, I'd stay and fight, but fortunately, we do have other options.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

It is part of the European wide Directive 2004/38/EC. And is now in Irish law.

Yeah, and the Irish have been absolutely scrupulous in their interpretation of that specific EU directive.

If that worked, that would be awesome. If I were just applying with an EU1 now, I'd try it. There's nothing to lose. As it is, however (coming up to six months since I sent in the EU1), I'm sick of it all. I'll send a complaint to SOLVIT as soon as my six months is up, but we've already decided we'll move.

There is absolutely nothing stopping you from sending supplimentary information for consideration with your EU1 application. Do it by registered mail. And make specific reference to the UK law, EU law and Irish law concerned.

I frankly think the Irish government will need to be forced, bit by bit, to obey the law of Ireland (and of the EU). And each applicant needs to do their part, and it definitely does work if you are careful. There is no need to wait for the EU, and in fact the EU might not ever intervene.

[nohinsara]

You know, in light of all this, I think we are leaning toward just trying to apply for a green card or work permit (still trying to figure out what the difference is between them) from Canada before heading over as well as a UK spousal visa for Northern Ireland.

I am just hoping against hope that when I mark the box that says "spouse is EU citizen" they don't chuck out our application.

[Erik84]

Here's the (not very helpful) reply I got from the Irish embassy in Sweden:

Dear Mr Xxxx,

Thank you for your latest email.
We are not familiar with the complications once in Ireland that you outline in your email, however I can answer your query re visa to join an EU spouse.

If your wife holds a Swedish residence permit we then can process an application for a D-visa to join you in Ireland. The visa is just a pre-entry clearance and the final decision to allow a person into Ireland is always made at the port of entry. If holding a D-visa your wife still needs to register with GNIB once in Ireland. And I assume it is for the EU1 permit - the residence card showing that a person is residing in Ireland based on an EU citizen.

Kind regards,

Xxxx Xxx

Embassy of Ireland
Östermalmsgatan 97, 4th floor
Box 10326
100 55 Stockholm
Tel: + 46 8 661 8005
Fax: + 46 8 660 1353
Email: stockholmembassy@dfa.ie

[runie80]

looks like a catch 22 to me

they throwing everyone in Eu-1

[BigAppleWoodenShoe]

@Nohinsara, your husband should apply to a job in Ireland from Canada, if he gets a job, then the greencard stuff will be taken care of by the company.

If not, then you will be in the same pile of sh*t most of us here are in.

[runie80]

Yes tell him to try

www.irishjobs.ie
www.monster.ie
www.jobs.ie

any jobs over 30,000 will gurantee him work visa

But being out of the country and looking for this sort of job when the employer knows that you will require visa will be tough but not impossible
Give ur best shot

[BigAppleWoodenShoe]

That depends on the kind of job, if your an 'academic' or in the medical field, then your chances are much higher.

Although I'm dutch, I got an interview while I was still in America. First a phone-interview, and then a paid flight into Cork. Ireland has to get educated people from abroad.

[nohinsara]

Thanks guys!
I wish I could say that his company will set everything up for him, but I've been told they won't. That would mean they have to spend money on things, so they won't. We've been told that he would quit here, and basically be assured a position over there when he arrives.

Might be too soon to say. We're waiting on the manager in Dublin to give the word, so we're keeping our fingers crossed they can do something for him.

I will check out those job website though! Never know.
I'm just worried I will run into the same attitude I encountered when I looked and applied for jobs for my husband in the UK - we weren't even given the time of freaking day because we're over here in Canada still. Made me mental!

Will try anyway. I'm encouraged by BigAppleWoodenShoe's experience. Do mind if I ask what field you are in? My husband is in fraud policy in an online environment. Skilled, but not headhuntable skilled.

[BigAppleWoodenShoe]

I am in nanoscience and engineering. My wife is an epidemiologist (a public health analyst), and she has had some difficulty finding work here. But since your husband is in an IT field, he should be scooped up! Good luck.

I believe the cost for a company to get you a workpermit are a mere 2000 Euro, which is easily paid by an employer. (If they won't, they don't really want you) On the other hand, state jobs have to proof that they could not get an Irish for the job by advertising in papers and online job sites. I am in a very specific field which is an advantage.

[runie80]

Yes IT jobs are plenty here

But the problem is that IT salaries has been falling year on year !!!

Ireland have tooo many IT jobs but the salaries are not Great

They are just average !

[nohinsara]

Well here's the thing... my husband works in policy and fraud detection, but he does not have any IT qualifications. So it might be difficult for him to find a job in the IT market.

I wish I knew if my status as a member of the EU will impact badly on a work permit application. If we go through the whole process of applying and get rejected and told to apply for EU1 I will lose it!