Schengen Visa for non-EU Spouse both living outside EU

[llp]

Quick Facts:

Me - British citizen
Wife - Filipina
We live - Philippines

Plans - two week vacation in Italy

Have approached the Italian embassy in Manila, quoting Directive 2004/38/EC

They have stated that this *may* only apply to us if "our marriage is registered in the UK"

Questions:

I have no idea what they mean by registering our marriage in the UK - the closest I can find to this, is depositing our marriage documents with the GRO - however this can only be done if we are residents of the UK

https://www.gov.uk/deposit-foreign-marriage

Any ideas how we can get the Italian embassy to accept the Philippines marriage certificate?

Also, wife has now received her new passport in married name, surely this is sufficient?

We will be travelling together - but have not booked flights yet, as I knew there would be problems

P.S. We can prove legitimacy of our relationship with business documents and synchronized date stamps in our passports going back 4 years (yes I know that is not required under Directive 2004/38/EC)

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

There is no requirement for your marriage to be registered in the UK. Provided that the UK recognises your marriage, it is valid. The requirement is that you are married.

The Italian authorities may request that your marriage certificate is legalised and translated, but that's a slightly different question.

[llp]

Thanks for your quick reply

I emailed the Italian embassy enquiring what they meant by "registered", however they have yet to answer

How would I go about getting the UK to recognise my marriage? What is the process?

Also I searched through the forums and I found a similar example where the Spanish embassy in Manila were saying the same thing - that a marriage had to be registered in the EU citizen's home country

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=125832

In the end, the Filipina wife applied for a Schengen family visa through the Czech Rep's embassy in Manila - I reviewed their website and they only insist that the marriage certificate is "legalised & authenticated" by the Philippine authorities

Obviously this is a back-up option for us, but it will mean a complete change of plans and spending at least half our vacation in Prague - I have nothing against Prague, it's great city, except maybe a bit chilly in December!

But this just shows how ridiculous the situation is for countries within the Schengen zone to have differing rules for issuing what is *effectively* the same visa

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

It would appear that certain countries would expect one to follow a certain procedure.

The UK is happy to accept that you are married. Apply to the Italians, complain if necessary.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Out of interest, where were you married?

Call the British embassy consular section and ask them how you can register the marriage to satisfy the Italians. They will probably tell you that they have not idea.

Then tell the Italians.

I would suggest, in general, that you get a visa to Germany and fly there as your first point of entry into Schengen. They tend to be a lot more professional and organized.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Any ideas how we can get the Italian embassy to accept the Philippines marriage certificate?

This should be relatively easy if you are in the Philippines; you may need to get your marriage certificate translated into Italian and legalised by Philippines' authorities / Italian authorities. This is basically a procedure that would allow your marriage certificate to be recognised as being valid by the Italians.

[llp]

Thanks for all the replies - I will answer all the questions, however:

Something I didn't mention earlier, is that I actually have dual citizenship, British/Irish (born Northern Ireland)

I only got my Irish passport recently (18 months ago) primarily due to avoid the extreme hassle of dealing with the British embassy (won't answer emails, appointments have to be made many months in advance, and expensive fees)

As the Irish embassy are much easier to contact, I used my Irish passport for the marriage process and this is the nationality that is listed on the marriage certificate.

Therefore, the current status is:

1. I have emailed the Italian embassy asking them to clarify by what they mean by "registered"

2. I have emailed the Irish embassy and asked if this is something they can arrange, and if not, requesting their advice on what to do next

To answer the questions

Out of interest, where were you married?

Call the British embassy consular section and ask them how you can register the marriage to satisfy the Italians. They will probably tell you that they have not idea.

Then tell the Italians.

I would suggest, in general, that you get a visa to Germany and fly there as your first point of entry into Schengen. They tend to be a lot more professional and organized.

We were married in Manila

I looked at Germany as I thought they would be "by the book", but there is no mention of a family/spousal visa on their website (same as Italians)

Spain & Netherlands mention it, but they don't explain it properly

Only Czech Rep (of the Schengen countries I have checked that have an embassy in the Philippines), spell out exactly what the procedure is for family/spousal visas

It looks like some embassies are going out of their way to "bury" this information, meaning only the "clued-up" people who are aware of Directive/2004/38/EC, can take advantage of it - and even then most of these countries are making it as difficult as possible

With regard to travelling to Germany - we genuinely are going on vacation - we only got married in July and this will be our "honeymoon" and my wife wants to see Rome, Florence & Venice - we could go in through another country - but why should we? The tickets will be more expensive AND we have the hassle/cost of internal flights to/from Italy, not to mention the wasted travelling time

This should be relatively easy if you are in the Philippines; you may need to get your marriage certificate translated into Italian and legalised by Philippines' authorities / Italian authorities. This is basically a procedure that would allow your marriage certificate to be recognised as being valid by the Italians.

There has been no mention of translations, but as all legal documents in the Philippines are in English, therefore hopefully that wouldn't be necessary. With regard to it being legalised, I have investigated (thanks to the Filipina on the other thread) and this can be done quite easily via the DFA (Departement of Foreign Affairs) in Manila - so we will be starting that process on Monday

One last question - my wife has a new passport in her married name and also the old passport in her maiden name, surely this is proof that she has gotten married to me?

[dalebutt]

What you need to do is a legalisation, your marriage certificate needs to be legalised by the Italian ministry of foreign affairs for it to be valid and acceptable by Italian authorities.

Legalisation is a little confusing, the marriage certificates needs to be authenticated by the Philippines ministry of foreign affairs, once it's been authenticated, you will then proceed to the Italian embassy to submit the documents for legalisation, there is a cost attached, I do not know what the processing time would be as it varies by region.

You should ask the embassy what their procedure of legalisation is. Good luck

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

On a somewhat unrelated topic: If you ever have the chance to easily get a few more official copies of yoru marriage certificate, I personally think it is a worthwhile investment of a (very) few dollars/pesos/pounds. They can tend to get absorbed into official xyz and it is nice to have given them the copy instead of the original.

[llp]

Reply received from the Irish Embassy:

Dear Sir,

Thank you for your email. This is to confirm that Ireland recognizes civil marriage certificates issued by a foreign country if the citizen was married abroad as they have no facility to register foreign marriages. Under normal circumstances our office accepts an Apostilled civil marriage certificate issued by the Philippine Regsitry (NSO) for visa/consular applications. You may want to try and mention this information to the current Embassy you are dealing with however as their office would have separate policies from ours, our office would not have any authority to bypass their own polices/requirements regarding visa applications. It would still remain that you will have to abide by the requirements of the current country you are obtaining a visa from.

Please see extract below from the Irish General Registry Office website regarding marriages abroad: http://www.groireland.ie/faqs.htm#28

If I get married abroad how do I register the marriage in Ireland ?

Irish marriage legislation only provides for the registration of marriages that occur in Ireland so, not only do you not need to register a foreign marriage here, there is no mechanism by which you may do so. The civil marriage certificate from the country where the marriage took place is the legal proof of your marriage (see also next paragraph).

Will my foreign marriage be recognised in Ireland ?

This office does not have a role in deciding the legality or otherwise of marriages that occur outside the State.

A foreign Marriage Certificate, accompanied by a translation from a reputable translation agency if necessary, should be acceptable for most legal and administrative purposes, but there are some circumstances (notably where one of the parties to the marriage was divorced outside Ireland) where this may not be the case.

If in doubt you should seek legal advice, preferably from a solicitor who specialises in Family Law, as this can be an extremely complex matter.
There is also a mechanism by which you may apply to the Irish Courts (under Section 29 of the Family Law Act 1995) for an order recognising a foreign marriage.

[llp]

Also, received a phone call from the Italian embassy

Basically, repeating the same mantra:

Them: The marriage has to be registered in Ireland
Me: Ireland doesn't have a mechanism for registering a foreign marriage
Them: Then you have to apply for a tourist visa and pay 60 Euros
Me: I don't want to pay 60 Euros and waste time collecting unnecessary documents, just because you are refusing to correctly implement Directive 2004/38/EC

Me: I also enquired why the Czech Rep, were only requesting a legalised marriage certificate, which is based on the same European rules
Them: Different countries have their own interpretation of the law
Me: You do realise that once I arrive in Prague, I can travel straight to Italy, so I really don't know what you are trying to achieve

The whole process has left a nasty taste in my mouth, so I won't be wasting any more time on it. We will have a week in Prague and a week in Paris and let our spending money help those economies instead of Italy's

Overall, really disgusting behaviour, especially, as they are still maintaining that my wife should be applying for a tourist visa, as in their words "you are only going there for two weeks, so the family (reunion) visa doesn't apply in your case"

Basically my view is that, they are denying the existing of Directive 2004/38/EC (no mention of it on their website) and when you raise it with them, they require you to provide something which is impossible, and when you tell them it is impossible, their answer is "then pay 60 Euros and apply for the tourist visa"

I really don't have time to argue with them, as the longer we wait, the more expensive the flights and hotels will be, so I would prefer to just get everything booked and then forget about all this hassle

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

The Italian embassy is simply wrong. I completely understand your desire to go where it suits you and enjoy where you are welcome.

I strongly urge you to complain. Solvit, EU commission, etc.

Should you wish to pursue the Italians further, have them read through the guidance for embassies, which they are obliged to comply with.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

http://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/polici ... f#zoom=100

start at page 86

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

If you do not complain, nothing will get changed.

But I agree with avoiding giving a few weeks of tourist revenue to member states (like Italy and Spain) who make it so difficult to visit when legally they need to just issue the visa.