Help!! Please...................

sheetaxml · Post by **sheetaxml** » Thu May 31, 2007 11:33 am

Hi, I am writing this to help my friend.

My friend is in deep trouble, She is on work permit and seeking to apply for HSMP soon.

She has committed a mistake by travelling on London Underground with someone else travelcard/photocard and eventually caught by Underground staff at Paddington station. They took all the details and sent the following letter

************************************************************************************************************

Dear xxx xxxxxxxx

On 16/05/2007 at 10.12 an incident took place at Paddington station whereby you were spoken to by a member of London underground staff regarding your train journey and the associated fare.

The facts of this incident are now being considered and I must advise you that legal proceedings may be initiated against you regarding this matter in accordance with the London Underground prosecution policy

If you have any comments to make regarding this incident please write them on the reverse side of this letter and complete the information panel below, returning the whole letter in the freepost envelope provided which does not require a stamp, within 10 days

You do not have to reply this letter but it may harm your defence if you do not mention something which you may later rely on in court. Anything that you do provide in writing may be used in evidence

Failure to respond to this letter may result in the matter being progressed by the London Underground Prosecutions Department without further notification

********************************************************************************************************************

She really regret for what she has done and desperately seeking some help. Can anyone know the best way to proceed with this? Is there anyway to convince Tfl to avoid legal steps.

Is there any impact on her HSMP application in future?

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Marco 72 · Post by **Marco 72** » Thu May 31, 2007 12:03 pm

She should seek legal advice at once. They will probably tell her to plead guilty by mail and advise her on the best way of doing that. I don't know what the consequences will be for her HSMP application.

In this country people can get an "on the spot fine" with no criminal record for stealing and making their neighbours' lives a living hell, but unfortunately not for using someone else's travelcard.

sheetaxml · Post by **sheetaxml** » Thu May 31, 2007 12:11 pm

hi thanks for the reply. Othere memeber any ideas to share?

Thanks

jes2jes · Post by **jes2jes** » Thu May 31, 2007 12:16 pm

She can pay the fine as mentioned above and this would have no impact on her HSMP application since this is not a criminal offence. It would cause a problem if they give her the fine and she ignores it totally and refuses to pay.

Pleading guilty by mail is the norm and she should not worry but tell her next time buy her own ticket or use her own top up card to avoid such issues. Consider what would happen if she was arrested by the police for this.

Marco 72 · Post by **Marco 72** » Thu May 31, 2007 12:18 pm

By the way, when she replies it might be good to send the letter by secure delivery rather than just putting it in the post box.

sheetaxml · Post by **sheetaxml** » Thu May 31, 2007 12:20 pm

thank you for the reply.

In the letter they did not say anything about fixed penalty. only talking about legal proceedings. Any ideas what might happen?

Thanks

SYH · Post by **SYH** » Thu May 31, 2007 12:31 pm

Wow how do they catch people for that?

sheetaxml · Post by **sheetaxml** » Thu May 31, 2007 12:38 pm

they were doing random checks.

SYH · Post by **SYH** » Thu May 31, 2007 12:41 pm

anyway, she should just write she wants the matter settled expediently and what does London Underground have in mind. Perhaps a no contest plea, it isn't admitting guilt just getting them to cut to the chase.

sheetaxml · Post by **sheetaxml** » Thu May 31, 2007 12:54 pm

could you suggest few words that the reply letter should contain.

Thank you.

SYH · Post by **SYH** » Thu May 31, 2007 2:08 pm

sheetaxml wrote:could you suggest few words that the reply letter should contain.

Thank you.

SYH wrote:anyway, she should just write she wants the matter settled expediently and what does London Underground have in mind. Perhaps a no contest plea, it isn't admitting guilt just getting them to cut to the chase.

I just did

sheetaxml · Post by **sheetaxml** » Thu May 31, 2007 2:37 pm

hi

thanks for your replies.

the below is the reply she has prepared. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Could you add few words to request for a fixed penalty rather court procecution as I could not get properly.

******************************************************
Dear Mr. xxxxx

Firstly, I would like to apologise for having forced you to write a letter to me, following the incident on 16th May, in Paddington Street station.
I feel very ashamed that my actions have subsequently led to London Underground having to pursue prosecution against me. My Oyster card, which had a huge amount of money on it, was stolen. I was using my friend xxxxâ€™s card temporarily just to substitute the deposit I had on my stolen card.
Please accept my apologies and my promise that I will not repeat this again and will abide by the rules of London Transportation.

Yours sincerely,
xxxx xxxxxx
******************************************************

SYH · Post by **SYH** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:08 pm

Dear Sir,
I do apologize for the incident on 16th May, there were extenuating circumstances that led up to the situation. I do not contest your assessment and I am willing to dicuss the matter with you by phone. In order to preserve my legal rights, I do not wish to document the extenuating circumstances. If at all possible, I hope we can settle the matter amicably with a fine instead of going to court. You can take this letter to mean that it is not necessary to discuss with me whether I will accept a penalty fine. I will if it will settle the matter for you and you should feel free to proceed to send me a bill and letter to confirm the matter will be resolved when you have received payment.
Kind regards,

This bit about the Oyster being stolen is bullocks. If its stolen, you report it stolen and they set you up with new card with the balance of the stolen card. That was the whole point of Oyster or at least one of its benefits. You didn't follow the rules so you pay the consequences. If they call and you want to explain your lack of understanding of how Oyster works, then you can but it is irrelevant in terms of settling the matter and it is not something you want to put in writing if they decide to proceed to go to court.

Marco 72 · Post by **Marco 72** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:11 pm

sheetaxml wrote:could you suggest few words that the reply letter should contain.

Thank you.

I really think you should seek legal advice rather than rely on the tips of some strangers on a discussion board. Look up some local solicitors and contact them for a quick consultation.

SYH · Post by **SYH** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:14 pm

Marco 72 wrote:
sheetaxml wrote:could you suggest few words that the reply letter should contain.

Thank you.
I really think you should seek legal advice rather than rely on the tips of some strangers on a discussion board. Look up some local solicitors and contact them for a quick consultation.

Yes Marco is right, you can call any solicitor for initial consultation, he will probably offer you the same advice unless he wants to pad his pocket. You can also try Citizens Advice Bureau

avjones · Post by **avjones** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:17 pm

A criminal conviction for dishonesty could have a major impact on her immigration status - I suggest strongly that she takes proper legal advice.

sheetaxml · Post by **sheetaxml** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:21 pm

thanks for the help SYH.

Stolen Oyster card bit is true. since she has commited to a mistake nobody obviously beleive her. Hence I will sugguest her not to include.

Thank you

SYH · Post by **SYH** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:28 pm

avjones wrote:A criminal conviction for dishonesty could have a major impact on her immigration status - I suggest strongly that she takes proper legal advice.

There is no crime of dishonesty
It could be theft possibly
Illegal use of Oyster is more administrative.
I tend to agree with jes that it is not a criminal act.
But again as Marco says you could followup on his suggestion and ask a solicitor if it is under any criminal act.
I highly doubt it but you never know

jes2jes · Post by **jes2jes** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:39 pm

SYH wrote:
avjones wrote:A criminal conviction for dishonesty could have a major impact on her immigration status - I suggest strongly that she takes proper legal advice.
There is no crime of dishonesty
It could be theft possibly
Illegal use of Oyster is more administrative.
I tend to agree with jes that it is not a criminal act.
But again as Marco says you could followup on his suggestion and ask a solicitor if it is under any criminal act.
I highly doubt it but you never know

I will tell you my own experience. Many years ago, I was on my way to write an exam somewhere in Mitcham from the South of London. I had a zone 1-3 bus pass I think. When I got on the bus, I told the driver my destination and asked if my pass allows me to travel that far. He said I was okay (Remember, I had just come into the country and was not averse with these zonal issues then). On the way, the inspectors came over to check tickets in Toothing. I confidently told them my destination and they told me my ticket would not allow me to get to my destination. I explained I asked the driver and was prepared to pay the difference (extension fees when I got on the bus initially) but they would not listen. I honestly gave them my details and a couple of weeks later got a fine for Â£5 or so in the post if I remember. This did not impact any of my immigration applications in anyway during the subsequent years and had not appear in any criminal systems (albeit PNC, CID or whatsoever).

Being arrested and booked by the police even would not constitute a criminal offence until a court has found you guilty.

Personally, I disagree what the other Posters are saying but this of course is my personal opinion and last time I checked it was still guaranteed under the statute books

sheetaxml · Post by **sheetaxml** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:46 pm

Hi jes2jes

Thanks for sharing your experience. that really helps.

avjones · Post by **avjones** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:53 pm

SYH wrote: There is no crime of dishonesty
It could be theft possibly
Illegal use of Oyster is more administrative.
I tend to agree with jes that it is not a criminal act.

That is an entirely contradictory answer - theft is the prime example of a crime of dishonesty! Travelling with a ticket you know you are not entitled to use can indeed be a criminal offence - in the days when i did Magistrates Court crime, I prosecuted entire lists of people for precisely that, "borrowed" travel cards, no ticket, etc. Think about it - travelling on someone else's card is indeed dishonest, and is so catagorised.

It is not administrative - it can be, it depends on what TFL decide to make of it. The OP's mate could indeed, on thsoe facts, potentially be summonsed for a criminal offence. Which is why she should take advice.

SYH · Post by **SYH** » Thu May 31, 2007 4:09 pm

avjones wrote:
That is an entirely contradictory answer - theft is the prime example of a crime of dishonesty! Travelling with a ticket you know you are not entitled to use can indeed be a criminal offence - in the days when i did Magistrates Court crime, I prosecuted entire lists of people for precisely that, "borrowed" travel cards, no ticket, etc. Think about it - travelling on someone else's card is indeed dishonest, and is so catagorised.

It is not administrative - it can be, it depends on what TFL decide to make of it. The OP's mate could indeed, on thsoe facts, potentially be summonsed for a criminal offence. Which is why she should take advice.

Being dishonest is not a crime, that can entail you lying about your age or a guy saying he is single when he is really married. Lying in of itself, is not a criminal act. Theft is criminal. Maybe there is a category of crimes labelled dishonesty, if so, that's news to me. Perhaps you are speaking about civil matters. I get your drift about whether the pass was borrowed but I have to go on the info given and she implies she had the other person's permission to use it. You are right if TFL wants to make more of it, I guess then can, I think they would just prefer the fine.

avjones · Post by **avjones** » Thu May 31, 2007 7:29 pm

I know being dishonest isn't a crime, that's why I used the phrase "crime of dishonesty", there are many. They include theft, forgery, obtaining by deception, getting goods and services you aren't entitled to by dishonesty (such as these facts).

The dishonesty isn't necessarily against the owner of the Oyster card, but against TFL etc.

Marco 72 · Post by **Marco 72** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:32 am

SYH wrote:Lying in of itself, is not a criminal act. Theft is criminal.

The government effectively decriminalised theft in 2004 (at least most of it). Last year they wanted to do the same with assault, and only backtracked after a backlash from the tabloid press.

AlexCh · Post by **AlexCh** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:22 am

A little bit off-topic question:

I understand that it is not allowed to travel on somebody's travel card / photocard - I think it is written on the card itself.

But what about the Oyster card? On the one hand it is just an electronic version of the Travel card, on the other hand it does not require a photocard with it and does not mention anything about being used by another person. Can my wife use it if I do not need it ?

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Help!! Please...................

Help!! Please...................