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Minister of Justice answers concerning Citizenship

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moro1
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Minister of Justice answers concerning Citizenship

Post by moro1 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:25 am

1090. Deputy Niall Collins asked the Minister for Justice and Equality if he will provide in tabular form the number of citizenship ceremonies held since March 2011; the location of same on a county basis; the cost per ceremony; if individual applicants must pay for the citizenship ceremony; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [37853/13]

Minister for Justice and Equality (Deputy Alan Shatter): On taking up office, I had substantial concerns that no appropriate arrangements existed to give proper recognition to the importance of a person being granted Irish citizenship. Under then existing arrangements a local district court clerk arranged for a person granted citizenship to take an oath before a District Court Judge and the new citizen subsequently received their Certificate of Naturalisation by post. In addition to arranging dedicated ceremonies with appropriate dignity and recognition of what a major and important event it is to become an Irish citizen, the introduction since March 2011 of citizenship ceremonies has prevented the build up of a huge strain on court time due to the large increase in the number of decisions made on naturalisation applications.
A total of 77 ceremonies have been held to date involving a total of 38,400 persons. A further ceremony day planned to take place on 21 October 2013. 72 of the ceremonies have taken place in Dublin, while 2 were held in Templemore in August 2011, 2 in Cork in December 2011 and 1 in the INIS offices in Tipperary Town in November 2012.

The average ceremony cost to date, excluding staff and processing costs, is just over €4 per applicant with recent large scale ceremonies costing under €4 per applicant. While ascribing a precise cost to the previous system of naturalisation is difficult at this remove, the indications are that this was significantly more costly given that it involved the diversion of court time and facilities as well as postage costs. Moreover, as mentioned above, the courts system would have been overwhelmed by the volume of cases which have been approved in the past two and a half years.

Attending a citizenship ceremony is free for all naturalisation applicants and their guests, while providing a sense of dignity and occasion that serves to underscore the importance to both the State and the applicant of the granting of Irish citizenship.

1091. Deputy Niall Collins asked the Minister for Justice and Equality the total number of citizenship applications granted per annum since 2011; the number of applications pending a decision; the number rejected; the average waiting time per annum; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [37854/13]
Minister for Justice and Equality (Deputy Alan Shatter): The number of applications approved in 2011 was 13,000, with 23,000 approved in 2012 and 24,000 so far this year. Those refused or deemed ineligible amounted to 1800, 1,600 and 700 respectively. There has been an enormous increase in the volume of applications for a certificate of naturalisation in recent years. In 2008 the number of valid applications made was just over 9,000 whereas the total number of valid applications received for 2011, 2012 and to end of August this year were 18,300, 19,900 and 12,500 respectively.
Clearly, the dramatic increase in volume impacted on the capacity of the administrative system to process them and gave rise to a large volume of cases on hand and to a situation where most cases were taking well over two years to complete. When I came into office in March 2011 there was a backlog of about 22,000 cases on hands. I undertook to address this issue and, in this regard, a major effort has and continues to be made in reducing the time taken to process applications.

As the Deputy will appreciate, as well as being a significant event in the life of its recipient, the granting of Irish citizenship through naturalisation as provided for in law is also a major step for the State which confers certain rights and entitlements not only within the State but also at European Union level and it is important that appropriate procedures are in place to preserve the integrity of the process. All applications are processed with a view to establishing whether the applicants meet the statutory conditions for the granting of naturalisation, such as good character and lawful residence, and are submitted to me for decision as expeditiously as possible. In some instances that can be established relatively quickly and in other cases completing the necessary checks can take a considerable period of time. Over 80% of standard applications are now being decided within 6 months, a remarkable achievement given the 120% increase in application levels since 2008, when processing times were more than 4 times longer. The total number of applications awaiting a decision currently stands at 9,000, which is less than the total number of new applications received over a 6 month period.


1091. Deputy Niall Collins asked the Minister for Justice and Equality the total number of citizenship applications granted per annum since 2011; the number of applications pending a decision; the number rejected; the average waiting time per annum; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [37854/13]
Minister for Justice and Equality (Deputy Alan Shatter): The number of applications approved in 2011 was 13,000, with 23,000 approved in 2012 and 24,000 so far this year. Those refused or deemed ineligible amounted to 1800, 1,600 and 700 respectively. There has been an enormous increase in the volume of applications for a certificate of naturalisation in recent years. In 2008 the number of valid applications made was just over 9,000 whereas the total number of valid applications received for 2011, 2012 and to end of August this year were 18,300, 19,900 and 12,500 respectively.
Clearly, the dramatic increase in volume impacted on the capacity of the administrative system to process them and gave rise to a large volume of cases on hand and to a situation where most cases were taking well over two years to complete. When I came into office in March 2011 there was a backlog of about 22,000 cases on hands. I undertook to address this issue and, in this regard, a major effort has and continues to be made in reducing the time taken to process applications.

As the Deputy will appreciate, as well as being a significant event in the life of its recipient, the granting of Irish citizenship through naturalisation as provided for in law is also a major step for the State which confers certain rights and entitlements not only within the State but also at European Union level and it is important that appropriate procedures are in place to preserve the integrity of the process. All applications are processed with a view to establishing whether the applicants meet the statutory conditions for the granting of naturalisation, such as good character and lawful residence, and are submitted to me for decision as expeditiously as possible. In some instances that can be established relatively quickly and in other cases completing the necessary checks can take a considerable period of time. Over 80% of standard applications are now being decided within 6 months, a remarkable achievement given the 120% increase in application levels since 2008, when processing times were more than 4 times longer. The total number of applications awaiting a decision currently stands at 9,000, which is less than the total number of new applications received over a 6 month period.

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Re: Minister of Justice answers concerning Citizenship

Post by IntegratedMigrant » Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:50 pm

moro1 wrote:The total number of applications awaiting a decision currently stands at 9,000, which is less than the total number of new applications received over a 6 month period.
That says it all!, and as I predicted by the end of 2013 all backlogs will be cleared!, at that is the case.

Applications from 2014 may be decided in just 4 months time but I must also point out that other measures might be brought in place like deferrals for people with offenses etc
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Re: Minister of Justice answers concerning Citizenship

Post by kelly2013 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:24 pm

IntegratedMigrant wrote:
moro1 wrote:The total number of applications awaiting a decision currently stands at 9,000, which is less than the total number of new applications received over a 6 month period.
That says it all!, and as I predicted by the end of 2013 all backlogs will be cleared!, at that is the case.

Applications from 2014 may be decided in just 4 months time but I must also point out that other measures might be brought in place like deferrals for people with offenses etc
Your prediction was right and I respect you for that. But I doubt if they will be able to clear the 9,000 currently awaiting decision before the end of 2013. 9,000 application will be two ceremony if they decide to part into two (4500/4500 it is clear there will be only one ceremony left for the year after 21st October.

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Post by mred1 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:52 pm

I doubt a decision can be made on 9000 applicants before the end of the year...But yes, when its all cleared, I guess we will be hearing more about deferrals ...Now, How will one challenge the fact that some people with serious "criminal records" were granted whilst deferrals are being given to people with "minor criminal offences"...I am certain the minister will think very carefully before granting out deferrals/refusals for no just reason. Off course I have only heard 1/2 of these cases. I do commend Alan Shatter, he has done very well...

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Post by alegalalien » Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:04 pm

Very informative and hopeful ^^

My calculation of the rate of processing as follows:

................ Before 2011 ... 2011 ...... 2012 ...... 8/2013

Submitted .................... +18300 ... +19900 ... +12500
Approved ..................... -13000 .... -23000 ..... -24000
Rejected ...................... -1800 ....... -1600 ...... -700

Remain ...... +22000 ..... 25500 ...... 20800 ...... 8600

So the remain applicants are 8600 by Aug 2013.

Let's work out:
Projection of processing rate for 2013: 24000/8months=3000/month =36000/year
Projection of application rate for 2013: 12500/8months=1562/month 18750/years
By end of 2013: there will be 2850 applicants pending or under processing.
Assuming 2014 show the same processing/application rates as of 2013:
2850 applications will take roughly 2months to completely process.

Promisingly, from March 2014, all application will be handed within 6months or even less as the processing capacity is 36000/year as compared to application rate of only 18750/year.

Cheers ^^

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Post by IntegratedMigrant » Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:35 am

Well the 9000 applications shouldnt be decided for a backlog to be cleared. People apply for citizenship every day really so there can never be all cleared applications. And I also should remind you that it takes up to 6 months for an application to be decided which means that there must be atleast up to 1500 applications every month.

To clarify what clearing a backlog means, when there is nobody waiting for a excess of more than 6 months, it doesnt matter how many applications they have, it means that the backlog is cleared. This excludes those with complex cases. From Jan 2014, all backlogs will be 100% cleared.
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Post by IntegratedMigrant » Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:40 am

mred1 wrote:I doubt a decision can be made on 9000 applicants before the end of the year...But yes, when its all cleared, I guess we will be hearing more about deferrals ...Now, How will one challenge the fact that some people with serious "criminal records" were granted whilst deferrals are being given to people with "minor criminal offences"...I am certain the minister will think very carefully before granting out deferrals/refusals for no just reason. Off course I have only heard 1/2 of these cases. I do commend Alan Shatter, he has done very well...
Could you be more specific as what serious criminal records means? Because you made it sounds like some serial killers was granted citizenship
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Post by mred1 » Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:39 pm

GOD Forbid anyone applying for citizenship is a serial killer... I wouldn't know much about Individual cases. I should have mentioned, someone with series of traffic offences may have been granted citizenship a few months back whilst someone applying in the coming months with the same offence may be deferred for 18 months. Although the minister has a discretion on whom he grants & who he defers, furthermore, it depends on the person dealing with someone's file..Is it fair that some are granted and some are deferred for the same offence? I am not condoning any form of crime or offence BTW.

IntegratedMigrant wrote:
mred1 wrote:I doubt a decision can be made on 9000 applicants before the end of the year...But yes, when its all cleared, I guess we will be hearing more about deferrals ...Now, How will one challenge the fact that some people with serious "criminal records" were granted whilst deferrals are being given to people with "minor criminal offences"...I am certain the minister will think very carefully before granting out deferrals/refusals for no just reason. Off course I have only heard 1/2 of these cases. I do commend Alan Shatter, he has done very well...
Could you be more specific as what serious criminal records means? Because you made it sounds like some serial killers was granted citizenship

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Post by jeupsy » Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:44 pm

I think it would make sense to change the law so that minor offences are consistently excluded regardless of the government in charge or the person processing the application; and instead it would make more sense to request minimum English or Irish language proficiency and make sure future citizens have basic knowledge of the history and political institutions of the country.

Someone who drove through a red light once, can speak perfect English, has made the effort to learn a bit of Irish, and has pretty good knowledge of Irish culture and the politics will probably be a better integrated citizen and more informed voter than someone who never committed a traffic offence but can only speak poor English, has no local relations, and doesn't know anything able the politicians he will have the right to elect.

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Post by moro1 » Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:36 pm

jeupsy wrote:I think it would make sense to change the law so that minor offences are consistently excluded regardless of the government in charge or the person processing the application; and instead it would make more sense to request minimum English or Irish language proficiency and make sure future citizens have basic knowledge of the history and political institutions of the country.

Someone who drove through a red light once, can speak perfect English, has made the effort to learn a bit of Irish, and has pretty good knowledge of Irish culture and the politics will probably be a better integrated citizen and more informed voter than someone who never committed a traffic offence but can only speak poor English, has no local relations, and doesn't know anything able the politicians he will have the right to elect.
Totally agree with you, Alan shatter done a great job but what is going to happen when he leaves.

Plus I don't think the minister actually makes the decision, he probably just get the files with a recommendation and just sign then off he might change few decisions here and there but that's all

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Post by IntegratedMigrant » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:08 pm

mred1 wrote:GOD Forbid anyone applying for citizenship is a serial killer... I wouldn't know much about Individual cases. I should have mentioned, someone with series of traffic offences may have been granted citizenship a few months back whilst someone applying in the coming months with the same offence may be deferred for 18 months. Although the minister has a discretion on whom he grants & who he defers, furthermore, it depends on the person dealing with someone's file..Is it fair that some are granted and some are deferred for the same offence? I am not condoning any form of crime or offence BTW.
There you go!, its a traffic offense and if you've never been convicted of any offenses regarding how many offenses you've had, then you are 100% clean as far as I am concerned. Up to 1 miillion people every year could commit traffic offenses each year and that doesnt mean that they are bad in any way shape or form. Some or should I say all countries like the UK dont include traffic offense as their naturalisation decision making as it is totally and utter nonsense!.

Deferral depends on individual cases, someone with conviction on just one traffic offense could be deferred but another with with multiple traffic offense but never been to court should not be deferred because he/she has never committed any crimes!.

Again length of time these offenses are committed in being put into account as well. i.e someone with conviction on just one traffic offense could be deferred if the conviction was less than one year old, but another person with the exact conviction on just one traffic offense will not be deferred because the conviction was 5 years ago. Thats hows it works
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Post by IntegratedMigrant » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:17 pm

jeupsy wrote:I think it would make sense to change the law so that minor offences are consistently excluded regardless of the government in charge or the person processing the application; and instead it would make more sense to request minimum English or Irish language proficiency and make sure future citizens have basic knowledge of the history and political institutions of the country.

Someone who drove through a red light once, can speak perfect English, has made the effort to learn a bit of Irish, and has pretty good knowledge of Irish culture and the politics will probably be a better integrated citizen and more informed voter than someone who never committed a traffic offence but can only speak poor English, has no local relations, and doesn't know anything able the politicians he will have the right to elect.
Well the Irish government clearly prefer one with no offense at all and is of great character and help makes the society a safer place than one with major conviction/s , speak good English and Irish language, know everything about history and politics and is a treat to the society.

I think I'll go with the good character on that one!. Speaking good English and knowing Irish history doesnt change much to be honest. People integrate if they want to regardless on how much they do about history or language.
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Post by jeupsy » Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:31 pm

Would you think that someone who got caught speeding once in their life is a danger for Irish society? And is that type of person less of a danger now than it was 5 years ago? If not, why would that person not deserve citizenship 5 years ago, and deserve it today?

I think the law should set a high level definition of what "good character" means to bring a bit more consistency in the process.

And about languages ... Different people can have different opinions, but I think someone who can't handle basic life activities in English is clearly not integrated.
Also I wouldn't trust someone with absolutely no idea about Irish history and no understanding of the political system to vote and decide the future of the country.

I am talking about non-perfect basic everyday life English and high level 5 pages summary of Ireland's history and institutions. This wouldn't be an issue at all for most applicants after 3/5 years living in Ireland. But I think there is a small minority for which it would be an issue ... And in my opinion these are not ready to become citizens.

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Post by IntegratedMigrant » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:09 pm

There are already lots of requirements to meet before applying for Irish citizenship and that is enough already. The Irish government have reviewed the Citizenship-Test and found out its too much burden for applicants having to meet all these requirements.

@Jeupsy, you're from France, and no one over there has been refused citizenship or deferred over traffic offenses, nor their application takes so long to process due to that.

Havng said that, most countries including France I think, when you meet all the necessary requirements you're entitled to become a citizenship, unlike in Ireland where it is in the minister's absolute discretion to grant or refuse citizenship desipite all your fluency in English, Irish History and Good Character you still could be refused for no reason at all!.

That is what Irish Citizens have to face to be Irish and I think that is enough!. Irish government know that before the could include the Citizenship-Test, they need to cut of some of the requirements and that what they are not ready to do.
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Post by IntegratedMigrant » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:31 pm

jeupsy wrote:Would you think that someone who got caught speeding once in their life is a danger for Irish society? And is that type of person less of a danger now than it was 5 years ago? If not, why would that person not deserve citizenship 5 years ago, and deserve it today?
Well I think a drunk driver is clearly a danger to Irish society and most will agree with me on that one. And yes if someone did not re-offend for a longer period of time, it is assumed that S/he has learned their lesson and will be less likely to re-offend, unlike someone that re-offends once every year!

jeupsy wrote:And about languages ... Different people can have different opinions, but I think someone who can't handle basic life activities in English is clearly not integrated.
Also I wouldn't trust someone with absolutely no idea about Irish history and no understanding of the political system to vote and decide the future of the country.

I agree with your side of thinking Jeupsy dont get me wrong, but what I see that you think one-sided and not the other. You should think of the whole picture of things.

I have seen people with fluent English and even people born in Ireland/Europe that do not want to integrate with society. I dont want to go on about this but you what...

Most people with less understanding of political system dont vote anyway because they have no interest at it whatsoever. Those that do vote have interest in politics and have basic understanding about how it works!.
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Post by Kinto » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:02 pm

moro1 wrote: Totally agree with you, Alan shatter done a great job but what is going to happen when he leaves.
More likely than not, the next minister will slow down the naturalisation process again. :(

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Post by Kinto » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:08 pm

IntegratedMigrant wrote:There are already lots of requirements to meet before applying for Irish citizenship and that is enough already. The Irish government have reviewed the Citizenship-Test and found out its too much burden for applicants having to meet all these requirements.
I think that requiring a reasonable score in IELTS (5+) would be a good thing. It amazes me how many people attempt (unsuccessfully) to live and work here with no English knowledge at all. If one wants to become a citizen of an English-speaking country, one must put some effort into learning the language.

This puts no burden on the state. As for the applicant, taking a standardized English test, assuming basic competence, shouldn't be a big deal.

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Post by jeupsy » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:28 pm

IntegratedMigrant wrote:Well I think a drunk driver is clearly a danger to Irish society and most will agree with me on that one. And yes if someone did not re-offend for a longer period of time, it is assumed that S/he has learned their lesson and will be less likely to re-offend, unlike someone that re-offends once every year!


Yes agreed... The only thing we might not agree on is wether this kind if thing should be formalised and written down in the law.
IntegratedMigrant wrote: I agree with your side of thinking Jeupsy dont get me wrong, but what I see that you think one-sided and not the other. You should think of the whole picture of things.

I have seen people with fluent English and even people born in Ireland/Europe that do not want to integrate with society. I dont want to go on about this but you what...

Most people with less understanding of political system dont vote anyway because they have no interest at it whatsoever. Those that do vote have interest in politics and have basic understanding about how it works!.
Yes agreed as well, because someone speaks English doesn't make them a good or well integrated person.

I think politics is the only point where we don't agree, I think if people have the right to vote they should have some understanding even if they don't start voting immediately, as otherwise in the long term they are likely to end up voting for populist parties when they eventual use their right.

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Post by jeupsy » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:35 pm

Kinto wrote:
I think that requiring a reasonable score in IELTS (5+) would be a good thing. It amazes me how many people attempt (unsuccessfully) to live and work here with no English knowledge at all. If one wants to become a citizen of an English-speaking country, one must put some effort into learning the language.

This puts no burden on the state. As for the applicant, taking a standardized English test, assuming basic competence, shouldn't be a big deal.
Yes exactly what I was thinking. This could easily be put in place overnight, wouldn't cost a cent to the State, would only be a small additional burden on the applicants in comparison to the existing cost of getting citizenship, and would be a fair and standardised way to ensure a minimum level of proficiency.

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Post by mred1 » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:45 pm

jeupsy wrote:Would you think that someone who got caught speeding once in their life is a danger for Irish society? And is that type of person less of a danger now than it was 5 years ago? If not, why would that person not deserve citizenship 5 years ago, and deserve it today?

I think the law should set a high level definition of what "good character" means to bring a bit more consistency in the process.
I absolutely agree with this.

The knowing politics bit & Irish, I have my reservations. I did 4th, 5th & 6th year in Ireland. I didn't do Irish & I wouldnt know a word of Irish. I got 400 points for my leaving certificate 10 years ago..But guess what, I wasn't granted stamp 4 until 5 years after completing it. I couldn't go to University but I did home study (Degree)...I also did a 1 yr PLC course. I would have no problem at all in getting along with almost everyone in the society but Can i see myself learning about the Irish politics? and the language? well, I will read up what concerns me, affects my personal situation & family. I haven't assimilated culturally but I have integrated perfectly.

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Post by mred1 » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:10 pm

There you go!, its a traffic offense and if you've never been convicted of any offenses regarding how many offenses you've had, then you are 100% clean as far as I am concerned. Up to 1 miillion people every year could commit traffic offenses each year and that doesnt mean that they are bad in any way shape or form. Some or should I say all countries like the UK dont include traffic offense as their naturalisation decision making as it is totally and utter nonsense!.

Deferral depends on individual cases, someone with conviction on just one traffic offense could be deferred but another with with multiple traffic offense but never been to court should not be deferred because he/she has never committed any crimes!. ( In a situation like mine, (No excuse for the attitude) I went to court for shoplifting a €4 Artificial Nails...at the age of 18 (10 yrs ago - 1st & last offence)...does that make me a criminal? Just because I went to court? Is going to court the difference between deferral & non deferral...Off course a CONVICTION will make a difference.

Again length of time these offenses are committed in being put into account as well. i.e someone with conviction on just one traffic offense could be deferred if the conviction was less than one year old, but another person with the exact conviction on just one traffic offense will not be deferred because the conviction was 5 years ago. Thats hows it works[/quote]
ABSOLUTELY makes sense...I agree...
The minister needs to make what constitute as "of good character" very clear... Off course, then again, he has absolute discretion on whom to grant & whom to refuse.

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Post by jeupsy » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:13 pm

Just to clarify my thoughts, I think Irish language skills should be an alternative option to English ones (of course realistically immigrants are unlikely to feel more fluent in Irish than in English ... But after all this is the first language of the country so it should be an option).

And about politics, I am really talking very basics like knowing how the 2 chambers of the parliament get elected and what is their role; having some basics about the 2 main political parties and the different stages Ireland went through in the past 80 years (independence, troubles, poor economics, joining the EU, Celtic Tiger, recession).

Agree there is no point in giving an advanced exam about Irish history and politics, which a lot of native citizens could fail anyway.

But I agree this part is not as much of a no brained as a language test as it is not as easy to define what the right requirements are and it wouldn't be as easy to implement.

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Post by IntegratedMigrant » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:46 am

Firstly Irish Language is out of context because so many born Irish people cant even speak Irish language, IMAO. English is the official language in Ireland and nobody needs to learn Irish unless they feel the need.

I must also stress that I have never seen anyone here in Ireland that does not know a word of English language!, and I have dealt with people from various ethnics and backgrounds!

Secondly, I think we agree in most things but some of you are failing to see and understand the bigger picture. Yes I think learning English, and knowing Irish History and culture is good, but as most of you have hinted, it adds more burden to applicants!. If this method is used now with the current requirements of naturalisation application, then Ireland might be breaking Human rights lol. Ireland would be one of the worst countries to get a citizenship from because they pose too much burden to the people that have contributed to the Irish society and have made Ireland their home irrespective of their nationality!.

If this whole Citizenship-Test should be brought in place then some requirements/law need to be scrapped!. i.e Being in the Minister's discretion to grant or refuse citizenship, scrapping Road traffic offenses and making it an entitlement once you met all the requirements needed to apply for naturalisation. Only then that I will welcome with open arms, the Citizenship-Test.
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Post by dalebutt » Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:30 am

Whilst English might be an official language in Ireland, it is indeed second official language. The Irish governments maintains that, Gaelic/Irish is and remains the first Official language of the Island of Ireland. for example if one wants to pursue a legal a career in Ireland, they must learn Irish. simples!

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Post by jeupsy » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:19 am

I am not sure which human right you are talking about IntegratedMigrant. A friend of mine became French and there was a language test and an interview to check some basic knowledge. Another became Canadian and she also went through a quiz about Canadian history and politics. In both cases it was no problem for them because the requirements were pretty basic. As far as I know the UK, the US and Germany are doing the same type of thing (and I am sure many other countries do).

How would Ireland be breaking human rights and be such a black sheep compared to others?

And yes I think everybody is saying this should come with clarifications about minor offences, so one extra (small) burden, but in exchange one extra guarantee not to get refused for a silly reason.

And yes Irish is the first official language of Ireland. Obviously English is one as well and is the one immigrants would use. But as a country if there is a language requirement Ireland would have to offer a choice between the 2 languages, even though almost no one would pick Irish.

Anyway ... There is no change coming anytime soon and we won't rewrite the law here :-)

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