help needed urgently

fcbayern · Post by **fcbayern** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:31 am

Hello! I am a Pakistani citizen married to a Romanian citizen and living in Romania. I was previously married to a Romanian citizen but my application which I made last year to extend my family visa was rejected. during this period I fell in love with another Romanian girl and now I am happily married with her after divorcing my ex-wife. problem is my application for a new family member card was also rejected because they considered my first marriage to be of convenience which it wasn't. now we have taken the Romanian office of immigration to court but we don't really have any hopes of winning the case as we don't trust the authorities. can someone please suggest us as to what can we do to stay together? if we lose the court case they will ask me to leave Romania in 15 days. I cant really go back to Pakistan because I don't have any family there and I want to stay with my wife here in Romania. can someone suggest anything for me or some kind of help? we also think that my wife is pregnant with our first baby but we cant confirm it yet as we haven't visited the doctor yet? any help in this matter?

Brigid from Ireland · Post by **Brigid from Ireland** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:09 pm

Move to any other EU country.

Your wife will need to work in the country you move to. This makes her an EU migrant worker, and the spouse of an EU migrant worker is entitled to a visa. It is almost impossible to refuse it, so long as the EU citizen works.

So if you are given 15 days to leave Romania you both move to any other EU country. I would recommend that you apply for a visa for Ireland straight away, as you need to have the visa before it becomes necessary for you to leave Romania. I recommend Ireland because the Irish process these visas very fast and for free.

The other option is to appeal decisions in Romania until the child is born. If you are the parent of a Romanian citizen child living in Romania you can apply to remain there on the basis of being the parent of a citizen child. This is called a Zambrano application, but it is only good after the baby is born.

fcbayern · Post by **fcbayern** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:45 pm

Hi Brigid and thanks for your response. I did contact the Spanish and Hungarian embassies today and they told me that they cant accept my application for a visa because I don't have any residence permit here in Romania. well of course I don't have a permit I applied for a permit and they refused our application saying its a marriage of convenience. now my question is my wife does not have a job offer from Ireland but she can travel there since she's an EU citizen but how can I travel with her? I am Pakistani citizen and Pakistanis cant literally travel anywhere without a visa? Could you please tell me how I could apply for an Irish visa or that even if I can apply for one? cant we just apply with our Marriage certificate? thanks and looking forward to your response

fcbayern · Post by **fcbayern** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:47 pm

any thoughts or ideas?

fcbayern · Post by **fcbayern** » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:13 am

I was hoping someone else would be kind enough to offer me their advice!

flyboy · Post by **flyboy** » Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:07 am

Try and apply for a schengen visa at the czech embassy- look at the requirements on the 2nd link of what is required for family members of EU citizens.

http://www.mzv.cz/bucharest/en/consular ... _visa.html

http://www.mzv.cz/jnp/en/information_fo ... izens.html

fcbayern · Post by **fcbayern** » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:12 am

yes flyboy I saw the requirements in the 2nd link and it doesn't seem like a lot but my question is that this is short term visa. what if I want to stay long term? what would I need to do?

flyboy · Post by **flyboy** » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:01 pm

You just need a short stay visa to enter and afterwards you and your spouse apply for your residence card within the country as long as your spouse will be exercising her treaty rights.

http://www.mvcr.cz/mvcren/article/tempo ... dence.aspx

http://www.mvcr.cz/mvcren/article/tempo ... 09Mg%3d%3d

You and your spouse are not obliged to seek residency in czech republic, you could choose any other EU country you wish to reside in. You could even apply for an irish visa or an EEA family permit for the UK from within the czech republic even if you only have a valid schengen visa.

the hurricane · Post by **the hurricane** » Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:50 pm

flyboy wrote:You just need a short stay visa to enter and afterwards you and your spouse apply for your residence card within the country as long as your spouse will be exercising her treaty rights.

http://www.mvcr.cz/mvcren/article/tempo ... dence.aspx

http://www.mvcr.cz/mvcren/article/tempo ... 09Mg%3d%3d

You and your spouse are not obliged to seek residency in czech republic, you could choose any other EU country you wish to reside in. You could even apply for an irish visa or an EEA family permit for the UK from within the czech republic even if you only have a valid schengen visa.

I am not sure if this is true because from my personal experience if u apply for a short stay schengen outside ur country of origin u will need to provide a proof that u are legally stay in that country (doesn't matter if u are a family member of EU national) otherwise they will refer u to your country of origin at least that is what most schengen embassies do

fcbayern · Post by **fcbayern** » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:05 pm

Hi flyboy thanks for feedback. Even if I do not hold a valid Schengen visa or apply after my Schengen visa expires will I still be able to apply for EEA family permit to the UK or an Irish visa from Czech rep? but my problem is that Romanian authorities have rejected my application for a family member card. even if my wife finds work in Czech rep. and after that based on her I apply for work rights too, wont the Czech authorities be able to view my history in Romania and hold it against me. I am sick and tired of fighting against the Romanian authorities and they just don't seem to understand me. I just want to live and work in EU but they seem hell bent on sending me back to Pakistan.

dalebutt · Post by **dalebutt** » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:57 pm

fcbayern wrote:Hi flyboy thanks for feedback. Even if I do not hold a valid Schengen visa or apply after my Schengen visa expires will I still be able to apply for EEA family permit to the UK or an Irish visa from Czech rep? but my problem is that Romanian authorities have rejected my application for a family member card. even if my wife finds work in Czech rep. and after that based on her I apply for work rights too, wont the Czech authorities be able to view my history in Romania and hold it against me. I am sick and tired of fighting against the Romanian authorities and they just don't seem to understand me. I just want to live and work in EU but they seem hell bent on sending me back to Pakistan.

When applying under the European laws, the applicant does not need to be legally resident in the country in which they are applying from, some embassies might not recognise this, you will have to proove your point. UK seems to have no problem about this as the it's clearly written on the UKBA's website.

the hurricane · Post by **the hurricane** » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:26 pm

dalebutt wrote:
fcbayern wrote:Hi flyboy thanks for feedback. Even if I do not hold a valid Schengen visa or apply after my Schengen visa expires will I still be able to apply for EEA family permit to the UK or an Irish visa from Czech rep? but my problem is that Romanian authorities have rejected my application for a family member card. even if my wife finds work in Czech rep. and after that based on her I apply for work rights too, wont the Czech authorities be able to view my history in Romania and hold it against me. I am sick and tired of fighting against the Romanian authorities and they just don't seem to understand me. I just want to live and work in EU but they seem hell bent on sending me back to Pakistan.
When applying under the European laws, the applicant does not need to be legally resident in the country in which they are applying from, some embassies might not recognise this, you will have to proove your point. UK seems to have no problem about this as the it's clearly written on the UKBA's website.

Do u maybe have the link? Because I know someone who applied for EEA permit as a family member of EU national but they refused him a visa coz he didn't have a valid resident permit in the Netherlands

fcbayern · Post by **fcbayern** » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:41 pm

@dalebutt do you think you could provide me with a link or some written info stating the European law you mentioned?
@the hurricane why was that someone refused a EEA family permit because of not holding a valid resident permit in the Netherlands? Is it necessary to hold resident permits in the country of residence if I have to apply for EEA permit to the UK? is Ireland the same?

dalebutt · Post by **dalebutt** » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:22 pm

the hurricane wrote:
dalebutt wrote:
fcbayern wrote:Hi flyboy thanks for feedback. Even if I do not hold a valid Schengen visa or apply after my Schengen visa expires will I still be able to apply for EEA family permit to the UK or an Irish visa from Czech rep? but my problem is that Romanian authorities have rejected my application for a family member card. even if my wife finds work in Czech rep. and after that based on her I apply for work rights too, wont the Czech authorities be able to view my history in Romania and hold it against me. I am sick and tired of fighting against the Romanian authorities and they just don't seem to understand me. I just want to live and work in EU but they seem hell bent on sending me back to Pakistan.
When applying under the European laws, the applicant does not need to be legally resident in the country in which they are applying from, some embassies might not recognise this, you will have to proove your point. UK seems to have no problem about this as the it's clearly written on the UKBA's website.
Do u maybe have the link? Because I know someone who applied for EEA permit as a family member of EU national but they refused him a visa coz he didn't have a valid resident permit in the Netherlands

This is very unlikely to happen, there have been people on the forum without valid leave in the country which they have applied for a family permit and have had no problem with it, I personally know people who have done this not a problem. I know a friend whose spouse has recently received an Irish visa from a country where they have no legal residence, of course there was a back and forth messages before the embassy finally accept they could not refuse to process the spouses application.

OP, this has been a well discussed topic on this forum you should check old post relating to your queries, if an EU embassy refuse to accept or refuses an application on the basis of legal residency, then I can assure you that, the refusal is wrong and it goes against the spirit of the Directive. I might be able to upload some links for you tomorrow.

Google directive 2004/38/ec to know more about your rights, pay attention to Article 5 of the directive, yourEurope as well is another source information.

dalebutt · Post by **dalebutt** » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:35 pm

www.spammer.com/uk-discussion-f ... ily-permit

the hurricane · Post by **the hurricane** » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:23 pm

fcbayern wrote:@dalebutt do you think you could provide me with a link or some written info stating the European law you mentioned?
@the hurricane why was that someone refused a EEA family permit because of not holding a valid resident permit in the Netherlands? Is it necessary to hold resident permits in the country of residence if I have to apply for EEA permit to the UK? is Ireland the same?

Well not having a legal status in the Netherlands was one of the reasons why they refused to issue him a visa. I think the most reliable sources are the UKBA and Your Europe maybe

Brigid from Ireland · Post by **Brigid from Ireland** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:48 am

This is the answer if you want to go to Ireland (Eu with non Eu spouse).

http://www.inis.gov.ie/

Above is the link to the main web page of the department that gives the visa.

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Jo ... EU_Citizen

Above is the link to the page for the spouse of an EU citizen. It says:

Spouse/Child/Partner- Qualifying Family Members who wish to ACCOMPANY EU Citizen to Ireland – Reside

If you are the non EEA spouse

and

you wish to ACCOMPANY the EU Citizen to Ireland the following documents are required:

Fully complete the online application form, and submit your signed summary application form, and photographs.
In addition to the signed summary application form, please also submit

1. a signed letter of application (I would recommend two signed letters of application, one from the EU citizen saying 'I wish to travel to Ireland to look for work and my non-EU spouse wishes to travel with me' and one for the non -EU spouse saying (My spouse is an EU citizen who wishes to travel to Ireland to look for work and I wish to travel with him/her.)
2. Passport
3. In the case of a married couple, Marriage Certificate – evidence (apostilled document) that marriage has been registered in applicant’s country of origin/residence

The applicant should, if intending to reside in Ireland beyond 90 days, make an application for a Residence Card of a family member of an EU Citizen to the EU Treaty Right Section, 13-14 Burgh Quay, Dublin 2. (You do this after you travel to Ireland, and in order to be successful the only things you need are passports and pps numbers for both spouse, valid original marriage certificate and payslips for the spouse who is the EU citizen). The long term visa for the non -EU spouse is granted without question if you can supply all of these, and the non EU spouse is permitted to work. The EU spouse MUST continue to work except in the case of involuntary unemployment or things like illness/pregnancy.

There is a link on the page to an online application form, you need to go to the page for it to work.

This applies to anyone who is married to an EU citizen and you can apply from any country in the world. If you are married to an Irish citizen you should use the same route, but you should apply to an EU country other than Ireland, as it works best if the EU citizen is applying to a country where they are not a citizen.

Brigid from Ireland · Post by **Brigid from Ireland** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:57 am

Hi fcbayern,

The reason I recommend Ireland is that they process the application fairly and relatively fast. Your wife has the same rights to look for work in any EU country, and to bring her husband with her, but many countries try not to issue the visa. Ireland will give the visa if she follows the rules.

The other reason I recommend Ireland is that it is a good place to be if your wife is having a baby. Once she gets a job she is then entitled to free health care during the pregnancy (all pregnant workers in Ireland get free maternity care), so the birth costs nothing at all.

If her income is low she can apply for something called a medical card - this gives free medicine for both spouses and all children and is only for people on a low income, but a lot of immigrants are eligible for it. So if anyone in the family has high medical costs, like a small baby or an older person with diabetes then Ireland is great because medicines are free if you are poor.

After the baby is born she gets 130 euro per month per child in a payment called child benefit - this is payable to all parents if both parents are in Ireland legally.

The big bonus is that if either parent works 20 or more hours per week, there is a payment for parents called Family Income Supplement. You don't get this if you have a big income (like if you are a doctor), but if your income is low you get it, and it increases if you have more children.

So Ireland is great if you are low wage with children and it is great if you need expensive medicines.

The important thing if your wife is recently preganant is that she needs to move quickly, as employers may not want to hire a woman who is obviously preganant, and she must get work in order for her husband to have the right to stay in Ireland. (She is allowed time off from work around the time the baby is born).

Brigid from Ireland · Post by **Brigid from Ireland** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:02 pm

If either spouse is or has been an employed worker in the years 2011, 2012 or 2013 (or any other year, but these three years are the most important) it would be an advantage if they could bring with them proof of that work.

The best type of proof is a letter from the social insurance department of the country where they worked. Next best is a letter from the tax office of the country where they worked. Next best is a letter from the employer or payslips. The letter needs to state the number of weeks worked per year. Eg Mrs A B Date of birth Identity number (if there is one) started work on 15/?/11 and worked every week until 12/?/13. She worked 28 weeks in 2011, 52 weeks in 2012 and 14 weeks in 2013.

The reason for this is because you may become unemployed, ill or pregnant after you move to a new country. If you have proof of your employment in the previous EU country, this is added to your social insurance record in the new country. This means that you might get benefit money which is not subject to a means test or a habitual residence condition.

So for example if your wife worked in 2011 and 2012 for 52 weeks and has proof of working those two years (104 weeks), comes to Ireland and works for one day, and is then sick because she is preganant, she can apply for a sick payment called illness benefit, and if she has the correct amount of weeks worked in another EU country she gets the payment automatically from Ireland, there is no reference to the income of her spouse or habitual residence in Ireland. Same with maternity benefit (a payment to ladies who are working immediately before giving birth, they need to have a certain number of weeks worked in the years before giving birth in order to get this money. Your wife can't get enough weeks in Ireland before the birth if she is already pregnant, but she can combine weeks worked in her home country with weeks worked in Ireland, to get the necessary number of weeks. If she gets this it is 188 or 300 euro per week, depending on various things, payable for six months). She should check the requirements, to see if she can make it possible for her to get this money.

One day of work can give many rights.

fcbayern · Post by **fcbayern** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:09 pm

@thehurricane I went through the EEA family permit document checklist and no where did they mention that the residence permit of any EU nation is a required when a person applies. So I suppose its that way.

fcbayern · Post by **fcbayern** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:18 pm

thanks Brigid for that detailed reply. I did in touch with the Irish embassy here in Bucharest and they told me they needed to see joint bank accounts, current residence contract in Romania ( that is a house contract or a tenancy contract of the place where we are currently staying), hotel booking or a document which proves that we have a place to stay in Ireland. But the INIS website doesn't mention all these other documents? do you think if we don't provide all these documents they would reject our visa application?

the hurricane · Post by **the hurricane** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:48 pm

fcbayern wrote:@thehurricane I went through the EEA family permit document checklist and no where did they mention that the residence permit of any EU nation is a required when a person applies. So I suppose its that way.

Have u checked the form? There is a question asking "Do you have a valid residence card or visa for an EEA member country?". I remember that person thought the same until he got a letter from a letter from the british high commision requesting him to send a copy of his resident permit. I am not trying to discourage you though you definitely can give a shot eh

fcbayern · Post by **fcbayern** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:41 pm

@the hurricane yes I did check the form and you are dead right it does mention "Do you have a valid residence card or visa for an EEA member country?". But it doesn't say on the form that if you don't have a residence card for an EEA member country that you will be denied EEA family permit. can you tell where did your friend apply from for the EEA family permit? any other ideas will be welcome.

dalebutt · Post by **dalebutt** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:16 pm

You will do best to learn your rights, Directive 2004/38/ec is the best place to start I have said that earlier . You do not require a valid residence permit or whatever to be able to apply for an EEA family permit it's simple.

The embassy is a territory of the member state concerned, the same way you will not be refused entry at the border without having a visa, the same law does obliged the embassies to treat your application regardless of residence permit. Some embassy do not know this but surely this is not a problem for the United Kingdom.

fcbayern · Post by **fcbayern** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:33 pm

yes I did manage to google Directive 2004/38/ec and this link http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/04 ... u-citizen/ popped up. It clearly states this on the site:
Requirements for a visa (for family members of EU citizen)

For a visa to be issued on the basis of Directive 2004/38/EC, only the following requirements need to be satisfied:
1.The visa applicant is a direct “family member” of an EU citizen and has proof (marriage or birth certificate or some combination) of the relationship)
2.The visa applicant will be travelling with, or joining, the EU citizen for a visit or permanent move to an EU member state. (If they are going to the “home” country of the EU citizen, then there can be a requirement that the EU citizen had previously lived/worked in a different member state)
3.All travellers require a passport (or a national ID card for the EU citizen)

no mentions of the residence card!
but I downloaded the EEA family permit form from the UKBA site and its mentioned over there that a residence card is necessary. strange?

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