Non visa national visit border admittance?

[Johngriff]

My girlfriend is a non visa national - we would like for her to visit the UK for 3 months later this year. I’m uncertain, despite her visa status, whether she would pass the Immigration Officer at UK airport, because she does not have strong ties in her country (no formal employment, property ownership or caring duties). Obviously for her to overstay would ruin our chances of a future in the UK and is out of the question from our perspective, but I’m concerned that she is not sufficiently able to prove she will return to her country and be turned back. I would support her with accomodation and all expenses during her stay, and can show my ability to do this. Does anybody have some informed advice or experience that can help us to know whether she will or will not be admitted to the UK? Thanks.

[simmo]

If she is overly worried about being refused entry ("bounced") she can apply for a visit visa beforehand.

[Johngriff]

If she is overly worried about being refused entry ("bounced") she can apply for a visit visa beforehand.

thank you, I'd considered that course, but I then read at http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/polic ... 4/#header2
that a visa application from a non visa national would be automatically accepted. If so, surely it would still not guarantee that she would not be 'bounced' at the border, since possession of a visa still doesn't guarantee entry?

After hours of reading and searching, it seems incredibly difficult to find out exactly whether a non visa national in her position will be admitted or not - I think somebody who has to apply for a visa is in a much clearer position? If Im being overly pessimistic it I'd love to know, but considering length of the journey she'd undertake to get here, we need to be certain.

[simmo]

If she is overly worried about being refused entry ("bounced") she can apply for a visit visa beforehand.

thank you, I'd considered that course, but I then read at http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/polic ... 4/#header2
that a visa application from a non visa national would be automatically accepted. If so, surely it would still not guarantee that she would not be 'bounced' at the border, since possession of a visa still doesn't guarantee entry?

After hours of reading and searching, it seems incredibly difficult to find out exactly whether a non visa national in her position will be admitted or not - I think somebody who has to apply for a visa is in a much clearer position? If Im being overly pessimistic it I'd love to know, but considering length of the journey she'd undertake to get here, we need to be certain.

See http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas ... a-holders/

Others may clarify, but my own personal understanding is that having a visitor's visa greatly reduces the chances of being bounced. The difference is that when applying for a visa the applicant establishes their bona fides, whereas a traveller without a visa has to do this at the border, which is where they risk coming a cropper...

[Johngriff]

See http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas ... a-holders/

Others may clarify, but my own personal understanding is that having a visitor's visa greatly reduces the chances of being bounced. The difference is that when applying for a visa the applicant establishes their bona fides, whereas a traveller without a visa has to do this at the border, which is where they risk coming a cropper...[/quote]

Thank you, that's helpful, reading the information at the link it's certainly encouraging, and I hadn't seen this. Still it seems a contradiction that if a visa will be automatically granted to a non visa national who 'insists on applying' (as the guidance says), in what sense is the person actually establishing their bona fides? If anybody can clarify or add to this helpful response I'd be very grateful.

[simmo]

See http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas ... a-holders/

Others may clarify, but my own personal understanding is that having a visitor's visa greatly reduces the chances of being bounced. The difference is that when applying for a visa the applicant establishes their bona fides, whereas a traveller without a visa has to do this at the border, which is where they risk coming a cropper...

Thank you, that's helpful, reading the information at the link it's certainly encouraging, and I hadn't seen this. Still it seems a contradiction that if a visa will be automatically granted to a non visa national who 'insists on applying' (as the guidance says), in what sense is the person actually establishing their bona fides? If anybody can clarify or add to this helpful response I'd be very grateful.[/quote]

Where have you seen that it will "automatically be granted"?!

[Johngriff]

Where have you seen that it will "automatically be granted"?![/quote]

I read at http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/polic ... 4/#header2

that "Where a non-visa national insists on applying (even if an entry clearance is not required), the application should be accepted."

[simmo]

Where have you seen that it will "automatically be granted"?!

I read at http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/polic ... 4/#header2

that "Where a non-visa national insists on applying (even if an entry clearance is not required), the application should be accepted."[/quote]

You're getting mixed up. What this means is that if a non visa national chooses to apply for a visit visa (even though, strictly speaking, they do not need one) the *application* should be accepted. That is to say, they will not refused the chance to apply given that strictly speaking it is not necessary to do so.

Should an application be made, it falls be approved or refused as any other application (I.e. Just as one made by a visa national). Thus, if you should choose to apply you need to ensure that all the criteria are met as detailed on the form and accompanying docs. This, in essence, is where bona fides are established. Bearing in mind that, if and when approved, travelling with a visa greatly refuses the chances of being turned around at the airport.

See others' experiences (US citizen) on another forum here which you may find interesting: http://talk.uk-yankee.com/index.php?PHP ... ic=81135.0

[Johngriff]

Where have you seen that it will "automatically be granted"?!

I read at http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/polic ... 4/#header2

that "Where a non-visa national insists on applying (even if an entry clearance is not required), the application should be accepted."

You're getting mixed up. What this means is that if a non visa national chooses to apply for a visit visa (even though, strictly speaking, they do not need one) the *application* should be accepted. That is to say, they will not refused the chance to apply given that strictly speaking it is not necessary to do so.

Should an application be made, it falls be approved or refused as any other application (I.e. Just as one made by a visa national). Thus, if you should choose to apply you need to ensure that all the criteria are met as detailed on the form and accompanying docs. This, in essence, is where bona fides are established. Bearing in mind that, if and when approved, travelling with a visa greatly refuses the chances of being turned around at the airport.

See others' experiences (US citizen) on another forum here which you may find interesting: http://talk.uk-yankee.com/index.php?PHP ... ic=81135.0[/quote]

Ahhhhhh! Now I see! That's very helpful indeed, I can see the way forward at last.

I appreciate the link to other's experiences too, very informative. Thanks very much for your help.

[simmo]

Not at all. Good luck and let us know how you get on.

[Johngriff]

Not at all. Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Thanks - will do.

[The Station Agent]

In my experience a visa application tends to be treated more harshly than someone standing in front of an officer at the port. This is partly because the visa application is totally impersonal and based on paperwork handled by an officer who can use the letter of the law to back up any refusal. Their general standpoint is to refuse any application they can refuse.

If you look at the case of your girlfriend from a purely detached standpoint (an officer who won't see her, and needs to handle dozens of applications per day) could they refuse it? If so, my advice would be do not apply for the visa. Yes, having the visa would give her greater certainty of getting in, but what if the visa is refused? (Which is far more likely than a refusal at the border in my view).

If you watch UK Border Force or whatever you will see multiple cases of people being allowed in if the officer feels their case is genuine, while if their case had been decided without chatting face-to-face it would more likely have been refused. This is just my personal opinion. The visa application is generally to be avoided where possible..............

[INSIDER]

I am an IO or BFO to give us our new title.

Station agent is pretty much spot on. I have granted entry to lots of people on the face of it who really stood to be refused. However, speaking to them and any sponsor allows me in some cases to give the benefit of the doubt which an ECO will not give.

In your case, a lot will depend on your own personal circumstances as well.
Do you work, if so how much do you earn? Do you own your own accommodation? These questions go to show your ability to support and accommodate your girlfriend.

Ultimately however, we have to be satisfied that the passenger intends to return home at the end of the visit. It is her responsibility to fully satisfy the immigration officer that this is the case, but with no real ties and incentive it will be a bit of an uphill task I am afraid.

[Johngriff]

I am an IO or BFO to give us our new title.

Station agent is pretty much spot on. I have granted entry to lots of people on the face of it who really stood to be refused. However, speaking to them and any sponsor allows me in some cases to give the benefit of the doubt which an ECO will not give.

In your case, a lot will depend on your own personal circumstances as well.
Do you work, if so how much do you earn? Do you own your own accommodation? These questions go to show your ability to support and accommodate your girlfriend.

Ultimately however, we have to be satisfied that the passenger intends to return home at the end of the visit. It is her responsibility to fully satisfy the immigration officer that this is the case, but with no real ties and incentive it will be a bit of an uphill task I am afraid.

Thanks so much for that very useful advice, I can see that it would really be too much of a risk given that, as you say, she would be facing an uphill task to satisfy an IO/BFO that she has evidence showing that she will return. It would be very traumatic for her to be turned back of course, and we have decided instead now to spend some time together in a third country (Turkey) where we believe she will be able to enter and take a holiday with me with more certainty of entry. The help from people on this board has been invaluable and helped us to see take an informed decision about how to proceed based on the level of risk we're willing to take.

[Johngriff]

In my experience a visa application tends to be treated more harshly than someone standing in front of an officer at the port. This is partly because the visa application is totally impersonal and based on paperwork handled by an officer who can use the letter of the law to back up any refusal. Their general standpoint is to refuse any application they can refuse.

If you look at the case of your girlfriend from a purely detached standpoint (an officer who won't see her, and needs to handle dozens of applications per day) could they refuse it? If so, my advice would be do not apply for the visa. Yes, having the visa would give her greater certainty of getting in, but what if the visa is refused? (Which is far more likely than a refusal at the border in my view).

If you watch UK Border Force or whatever you will see multiple cases of people being allowed in if the officer feels their case is genuine, while if their case had been decided without chatting face-to-face it would more likely have been refused. This is just my personal opinion. The visa application is generally to be avoided where possible..............

Thanks for this, I can see the logic of that, and I'm sure you're right. Given though that the consequences of being turned back would be a great deal of distress, expense and inconvenience, and the info from the IO/BFO who replied to the post, we decided to spend time in a third country instead.