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Your following quote gave me that ideaPlatinum wrote:I would love to get my facts right, runie80. Where in my post did I state a fact that needs correction?Get your facts right.
While I'm at it, where in my post did I say this?or this?they Invited all New EU after joining to help them...Ireland want to help eastren europeans
Walrusgrumble, I remembered reading the European Fundamental Rights regulations, and something about what you wrote struck me as being weird...Your article 8 is completely off.walrusgumble wrote: ARTICLE 8
1.Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.
2.There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others
as a national, i assure you, immigration is not the only area where all civil servants and governments have been late dealing with. we irish are not as prompt putting eu directives into effect, check out many eu case law.
i am not born irish by the way, just by my irish parents.
and i aint irish. (scottish)
microlab wrote:Walrusgumble
as a national, i assure you, immigration is not the only area where all civil servants and governments have been late dealing with. we irish are not as prompt putting eu directives into effect, check out many eu case law.
i am not born irish by the way, just by my irish parents.and i aint irish. (scottish)
YOU have been VOTED the most CONTROVERSIAL figure of the year !walrusgumble wrote:microlab wrote:Walrusgumble
as a national, i assure you, immigration is not the only area where all civil servants and governments have been late dealing with. we irish are not as prompt putting eu directives into effect, check out many eu case law.
i am not born irish by the way, just by my irish parents.and i aint irish. (scottish)
if off, i was born in scotland , so = eu national. secondly, of irish parents i can also clam irish nationality, i share an irish name, speak the irish language (forced by the way) many scots are irish by decent. so i feel i am irish.
archigabe wrote:Walrusgrumble, I remembered reading the European Fundamental Rights regulations, and something about what you wrote struck me as being weird...Your article 8 is completely off.walrusgumble wrote: ARTICLE 8
1.Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.
2.There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others
what's your agenda here?
Here's the real European Charter of Fundamental rights
http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/unit/c ... edoms.html
Article 7
Respect for private and family life
Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and communications.
Article 8
Protection of personal data
1. Everyone has the right to the protection of personal data concerning him or her.
2. Such data must be processed fairly for specified purposes and on the basis of the consent of the person concerned or some other legitimate basis laid down by law. Everyone has the right of access to data which has been collected concerning him or her, and the right to have it rectified.
3. Compliance with these rules shall be subject to control by an independent authority.
Article 9
Right to marry and right to found a family
The right to marry and the right to found a family shall be guaranteed in accordance with the national laws governing the exercise of these rights.
hi there, i have a question to ask, with regard to eu1 forms
two weeks ago i completed an eu 1 form with all the relevant documents enclosed. this was sent with a covering letter which ask for the passports to be sent back as soon as possible (i heard the dept normally send them back on request) the covering letter stated clearly that it would be very helpful if they could be sent back by the 20th of this month as they are needed. we have received the letter/notice from the dept which acknowledged the receipt of the application.
i am asking, how long would it tak for the passports to be returned if requested back/ if i send a registered letter to the dept which address in burgh quay should it be?
eu treaty rights section or acknowledgement section or repatriation section? (i know it should prob be eu section but the last one, all thou prob wrong place, are quicker in acting)
thanks for reading
can any one tell me the difference between the various residency stamps, eg stamp 1,2,student and 4.
is stamp 4 the best one in that you get residency without the need for a work permit.
if a student who is allowed to work part time, marries someone with a stamp 4 residency, and married in ireland, can they change their stamp. what is best stamp toget (ideally to stay without need for work permit) how do you go about it, what documents do you need,bar the obvious of marriage cert, evidence of living together, evidence of one's employment.
these people are from pakistan who have been previously have and still have legal residency. just student wishes to improve status, and later possibly naturalise/citizen. he has degree in it area doing phd or masters now (not sure which) and has been here for over 5 years.
know many of you fine people are frustrated with the actions of the doj, and rightly so. although this is no excuse, immigration and the rate it has reached in this country is unprecedent. i know you dont want to hear this but to the department this is a new thing. i know from a professional basis that dealing with doj is like pulling teeth out with a plyer. even the solicitors cant get one on one contact with the dept on clients behalf. we are expected to book an appointment (prob wait 3 months) just to take 5 mins to bring our clients case to their attention.
the major problem lies in the understaffed, bad facilites and structure. look how long for instance it took the refugee act 1996 to come into effect (2000).
the dept finally got their act together by making a separate site for immigration issues. funny how these things are done near elections. it time for bodies supporting immigration issues and lawyers to demand a separate ministry for immigration issues.
as a national, i assure you, immigration is not the only area where all civil servants and governments have been late dealing with. we irish are not as prompt putting eu directives into effect, check out many eu case law.
you all know that this "need to live in another eu country" is purely a policy issue and not law. it appears the minister is of the fear that many non eu nationals try to marry "on the rush" ie shame marriages in order to avoid the regular immigration proceedures. unfortunatley it appears to be the fear for failed asylum seekers or people who have been informed that deportation orders are being drafted.
microlab wrote:Walrusgumbles questios few months back.
hi there, i have a question to ask, with regard to eu1 forms
two weeks ago i completed an eu 1 form with all the relevant documents enclosed. this was sent with a covering letter which ask for the passports to be sent back as soon as possible (i heard the dept normally send them back on request) the covering letter stated clearly that it would be very helpful if they could be sent back by the 20th of this month as they are needed. we have received the letter/notice from the dept which acknowledged the receipt of the application.
i am asking, how long would it tak for the passports to be returned if requested back/ if i send a registered letter to the dept which address in burgh quay should it be?
eu treaty rights section or acknowledgement section or repatriation section? (i know it should prob be eu section but the last one, all thou prob wrong place, are quicker in acting)
thanks for readingcan any one tell me the difference between the various residency stamps, eg stamp 1,2,student and 4.
is stamp 4 the best one in that you get residency without the need for a work permit.
if a student who is allowed to work part time, marries someone with a stamp 4 residency, and married in ireland, can they change their stamp. what is best stamp toget (ideally to stay without need for work permit) how do you go about it, what documents do you need,bar the obvious of marriage cert, evidence of living together, evidence of one's employment.
these people are from pakistan who have been previously have and still have legal residency. just student wishes to improve status, and later possibly naturalise/citizen. he has degree in it area doing phd or masters now (not sure which) and has been here for over 5 years.
And suddenly he has such an insight into workings of DOJ
know many of you fine people are frustrated with the actions of the doj, and rightly so. although this is no excuse, immigration and the rate it has reached in this country is unprecedent. i know you dont want to hear this but to the department this is a new thing. i know from a professional basis that dealing with doj is like pulling teeth out with a plyer. even the solicitors cant get one on one contact with the dept on clients behalf. we are expected to book an appointment (prob wait 3 months) just to take 5 mins to bring our clients case to their attention.
the major problem lies in the understaffed, bad facilites and structure. look how long for instance it took the refugee act 1996 to come into effect (2000).
the dept finally got their act together by making a separate site for immigration issues. funny how these things are done near elections. it time for bodies supporting immigration issues and lawyers to demand a separate ministry for immigration issues.
as a national, i assure you, immigration is not the only area where all civil servants and governments have been late dealing with. we irish are not as prompt putting eu directives into effect, check out many eu case law.
you all know that this "need to live in another eu country" is purely a policy issue and not law. it appears the minister is of the fear that many non eu nationals try to marry "on the rush" ie shame marriages in order to avoid the regular immigration proceedures. unfortunatley it appears to be the fear for failed asylum seekers or people who have been informed that deportation orders are being drafted.
ITS SELF-EXPLANATORY,NO NEED TO COMMENT.
Just tell me one thing in all the above where does the burden of proof lies ?this crazy rule about requiring one to live in another eu state is clearly a measure to ensure people who marriage of convience do not abuse the immigration procedures by skipping various steps. the state might argue that this policy is required to ensure the intergrity of the immigration system. this rule shouldnt apply to people who have been legally allowed to reside in this state and then marry an eu national. However, unfortunatly, for people who married in this state but were not legally allowed to continue residing in this state and then marry an eu1 there will lie the problems, and the state would argue this point. some of them unfortunatley might be under the suspision of the department that their marriage to an eu might be a marriage of convience. however, a geniune marrige will easily rebut this by proviving the lenght of time that they have been in a relationship for a considerable amount of time (utility bills, bank statements, landlords letter proving that they reside together) and that the marrige is in fact genuine. that is the attitude of the department/ government/ minister as ye will or have realised, not mine. ( i do sympathise with ye)
[\quote]
you are correct and that will or should be brought up in the high court case.runie80 wrote:walrusgumble
U statedJust tell me one thing in all the above where does the burden of proof lies ?this crazy rule about requiring one to live in another eu state is clearly a measure to ensure people who marriage of convience do not abuse the immigration procedures by skipping various steps. the state might argue that this policy is required to ensure the intergrity of the immigration system. this rule shouldnt apply to people who have been legally allowed to reside in this state and then marry an eu national. However, unfortunatly, for people who married in this state but were not legally allowed to continue residing in this state and then marry an eu1 there will lie the problems, and the state would argue this point. some of them unfortunatley might be under the suspision of the department that their marriage to an eu might be a marriage of convience. however, a geniune marrige will easily rebut this by proviving the lenght of time that they have been in a relationship for a considerable amount of time (utility bills, bank statements, landlords letter proving that they reside together) and that the marrige is in fact genuine. that is the attitude of the department/ government/ minister as ye will or have realised, not mine. ( i do sympathise with ye)
[\quote]
In all the above the burden of proof lies with the DOJ
They should be able to proof which is sham marriage and which isnt and if they treat everyone the same then the system is "BOLLOX"
Its not our duty to proove our innnocence.And we all are suffering just for the reason because they cannot get their system foul proof.
Why dont they Interview the couples they suspect ?
why dont they ask for marriage pictures and etc ?
Also if the marriage is registered in ireland and your one department "marriage department" accepts it why iteh other dosent ?
and anything else they deem to be important
Its not out fault who are married genuinly and are being suspected of sham marriages .
The truth is Irish DOJ is blaming their Incompetence at others
Thats all !
And i except NON of your reasons just for the fact because I have nothing to fear of. The only thing i feel bad about is being asked to proove my innocence.
Its like "Guilty until you prove ur innocence"
Its crazy !
At the end of the day the Truth is you cannot have a 100% foul proof system no matter what.People who are committed to cheat will always find their way throughwalrusgumble wrote:you are correct and that will or should be brought up in the high court case.runie80 wrote:walrusgumble
U statedJust tell me one thing in all the above where does the burden of proof lies ?this crazy rule about requiring one to live in another eu state is clearly a measure to ensure people who marriage of convience do not abuse the immigration procedures by skipping various steps. the state might argue that this policy is required to ensure the intergrity of the immigration system. this rule shouldnt apply to people who have been legally allowed to reside in this state and then marry an eu national. However, unfortunatly, for people who married in this state but were not legally allowed to continue residing in this state and then marry an eu1 there will lie the problems, and the state would argue this point. some of them unfortunatley might be under the suspision of the department that their marriage to an eu might be a marriage of convience. however, a geniune marrige will easily rebut this by proviving the lenght of time that they have been in a relationship for a considerable amount of time (utility bills, bank statements, landlords letter proving that they reside together) and that the marrige is in fact genuine. that is the attitude of the department/ government/ minister as ye will or have realised, not mine. ( i do sympathise with ye)
[\quote]
In all the above the burden of proof lies with the DOJ
They should be able to proof which is sham marriage and which isnt and if they treat everyone the same then the system is "BOLLOX"
Its not our duty to proove our innnocence.And we all are suffering just for the reason because they cannot get their system foul proof.
Why dont they Interview the couples they suspect ?
why dont they ask for marriage pictures and etc ?
Also if the marriage is registered in ireland and your one department "marriage department" accepts it why iteh other dosent ?
and anything else they deem to be important
Its not out fault who are married genuinly and are being suspected of sham marriages .
The truth is Irish DOJ is blaming their Incompetence at others
Thats all !
And i except NON of your reasons just for the fact because I have nothing to fear of. The only thing i feel bad about is being asked to proove my innocence.
Its like "Guilty until you prove ur innocence"
Its crazy !
just one thing though, these are not my reasons, its the departments. you can accept or reject them all you want, the reality is, is that this is what is happening, and will continue to happen until it is challenged by the court.
even if the rule stays it might be easy to prove that their is a geniune relationship by providing the department with evidence that one resides together with their soon to be spouse for a considerable amount of time. there the applicant making the eu1 form is discharging the burden of proof that they are required to show.
by the way, were many of ye guys and girls legally allowed to reside and work in the state at the time (and i stress at the time) you married an eu national? i predict the state will defend their stance to the hilt in situations were one should not have been legally allowed to remain in the state, never mind allowed to marry. (hope court pay no heed to it though)
Finland does and although Switzerland not part of the EU has similar rule regarding free movement between the EU.
Have a look at the following links:
http://www.uvi.fi/netcomm/content.asp?article=3009
Finland implemented the directive since 30 April 2007, but as Ireland non eu/eea/swiss family members of eu/eea/swiss citizens only benefit from it if they've resided with the eu/eea/swiss citizen in another member state before moving to finland - if not, they have to apply under finnish national law for entry into finland, if they resided in a 3rd country outside the EU, EEA or Switzerland.
Although the directive does not apply to Switzerland, the swiss adopts the same stance as Ireland and Finland, regarding residence in another member state for non eu/eea family members, before moving to switzerland, and staying in a member state as a tourist,short stay visits, are not taken into consideration for the purpose of residence. For those who understand french, here's the link:
http://www.bfm.admin.ch/etc/medialib/da ... 1_04_f.pdf
Good luck to all those awaiting the outcome of the court ruling.
I disagree, and I think you will find most countries immigration systems are the same. The onus to prove your relationship falls typically on the applicant. The DoJ provides some information on possible proof of relationship, but the onus is on you the applicant to prove your marriage is a "real" one. The question is not about whether the marriage is a "legal" or legally recognised (although this proof is also required), but about whether the marriage was entered into for illicit purposes, or for the purpose of avoiding/scamming the normal immigration process.ruine80 Just tell me one thing in all the above where does the burden of proof lies ? In all the above the burden of proof lies with the DOJ. They should be able to proof which is sham marriage and which isnt and if they treat everyone the same then the system is "BOLLOX"
For the reasons outlined above, a legally recognised marriage does not necessarily constitute a "legitimate" one. For the purposes of Immigration the marriage should be examed to ensure it isn't simply "on paper" and is in fact a real and existing one.ruine80: Also if the marriage is registered in ireland and your one department "marriage department" accepts it why iteh other dosent ?
and anything else they deem to be important
Absolutely, but you are not alone in this case. Everyone who applies for immigration status on the basis of marriage (whether to an EU or Irish applicant) will be subjected to scrutiny. This is the same in most other immigration systems (check out UK/AU boards for example). I am sure you can understand why. I understand your frustrations with "how" the DoJ ineptly scrutinise the marriages (e.g. basing a decision on whether you have resided in the EU as a couple), but I'm sure you can understand the need for some scrutiny of the marriage?ruine80: Its not out fault who are married genuinly and are being suspected of sham marriages .