PR in Hungary - can I work in other EU countries?

Sze · Post by **Sze** » Mon May 28, 2007 4:10 am

Hello,

I'm from a non-EU country and am entering into my 5th year living and working in Hungary. As such, I'm considering applying for permanent residence there.

My partner's French, so France is probably we'll end up after our stint in Hungary. My question is - is that PR transferable? If not to France, which countries? If not at all, does it make sense for me to get the PR for its future usefulness i.e. when Hungary is a part of Schengen?

Much thanks,
Sze

Post by **JAJ** » Mon May 28, 2007 4:27 am

Sze wrote:Hello,

I'm from a non-EU country and am entering into my 5th year living and working in Hungary. As such, I'm considering applying for permanent residence there.

My partner's French, so France is probably we'll end up after our stint in Hungary. My question is - is that PR transferable? If not to France, which countries? If not at all, does it make sense for me to get the PR for its future usefulness i.e. when Hungary is a part of Schengen?

I'm not sure about transferring PR within Schengen, but is there any way you can get Hungarian citizenship? That would definitely give you the options you need.

What non-EU country are you from? Alternatively, have you looked into getting French citizenship by marriage?

Sze · Post by **Sze** » Mon May 28, 2007 4:32 am

Thanks for the quick reply!

Hungarian citizenship takes longer and involves a history exam in Hungarian! So no, not really an option.

In any case, I'm from Malaysia, which doesn't allow dual citizenship, and I'm not planning to give it up.

Yes we've talked about marriage as the 'last resort' but I was wondering if there was another way to do it.

If we did get married, would it be quite straightforward for me to get status to work in France?

Post by **John** » Mon May 28, 2007 9:02 am

How long have you and your partner actually lived together?

Separate question .... how long has your French partner been exercising EU Treaty Rights living and working in Hungary?

Sze · Post by **Sze** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:17 am

A year's the answer to both questions. Would a longer time for both make it easier?

Post by **John** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:29 am

There are two aspects to this. Firstly as regards the one year that your French partner has spent exercising EU Treaty Rights in Hungary, in view of the Surinder Singh case, and the fact that such rights have been exercised for in excess of 6 months, it is possible for you to make an application to France under EU law.

However, the other aspect, given that the two of you are not married, you have to show that there is a "durable relationship". I do not know how France is interpreting that expression. Certainly the UK is looking for the couple to have been living together for at least 2 years, but it is thought that sooner or later someone will challenge the UK's interpretation in Court.

Do appreciate that the two of you getting married will confirm that you are a "family member" as defined in EU legislation. Staying unmarried means that you are up against the "durable relationship" definition.

Either way, if you do get an EEA Family Permit issued to you, under EU law you would have a right to live and work in the country issuing that permit.

And whilst you mention moving to France, if the two of you got married and then you applied for a UK-issued EEA Family Permit, the two of you could move to the UK. Your French spouse (as they would be) would merely use their EU rights, and you would use your EEA Family Permit, Thus both of you could live and work in the UK.

Get married? Note the UK's interpretation of "durable relationship" for an unmarried couple, and the fact you have only lived together for one year.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Tue May 29, 2007 6:58 am

As a long term resident in an EU (Schengen participating) member state, you may qualify to take advantage of the new Directive 2003/109/EC on freedom of movement of long term (non-EU citizen) residents in the EU.

This may give you options in addition to your rights under Directive 2004/38/EC.

See http://eumovement.wordpress.com/directive-2003109ec/

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Tue May 29, 2007 11:46 am

Sze wrote:Thanks for the quick reply!

Hungarian citizenship takes longer and involves a history exam in Hungarian! So no, not really an option.

In any case, I'm from Malaysia, which doesn't allow dual citizenship, and I'm not planning to give it up.

Yes we've talked about marriage as the 'last resort' but I was wondering if there was another way to do it.

If we did get married, would it be quite straightforward for me to get status to work in France?

Surely after 5 years in Hungary you can speak the language by now?

Sze · Post by **Sze** » Tue May 29, 2007 11:55 am

Directive - what you've mentioned is the rumour I heard, but lots of people told me it doesn't work for Hungary, i.e. Hungarian citizens can't work in e.g. France/Austria right now so why would I get to as a PR - can anyone clarify?

Dawie - not well enough to take the citizenship exam!

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Tue May 29, 2007 11:57 am

Yeah, I have heard Hungarian is an almost impossibly difficult language to learn!

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Tue May 29, 2007 1:43 pm

Sze wrote:Directive - what you've mentioned is the rumour I heard, but lots of people told me it doesn't work for Hungary, i.e. Hungarian citizens can't work in e.g. France/Austria right now so why would I get to as a PR - can anyone clarify?

Very good point! The people who will know are the EU's free Citizen Signpost Service. You can submit a question to them at http://ec.europa.eu/citizensrights/

Sze · Post by **Sze** » Tue May 29, 2007 4:13 pm

Thanks for that - I've posted and will report back when I hear from them.

Sze · Post by **Sze** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:55 pm

Hello again,

I've heard back from the service - true to their word, they got back to me when they said they would.

To be honest, there's so much jargon and bureaucratic disclaimers that I'm finding it hard to wade through the information.

It's not clear (to me) in Article 14 of the Council Directive 2003/109/EC whether the employment they're talking about refers to employment acquired through a company-sponsored work permit or just going out there and getting a job as if I were a citizen. Are they simply trying to say they don't want you to bum off the social security here?

And adequate resources and overall sickness coverage seems pretty wide-ranging to me!

Though it IS good news to hear Hungary is joining Schengen soon.

I'll get someone to look at the Hungarian section for me; my command of the language is nowhere near being able to read these sorts of documents! Or if anyone out there can?

I get the feeling, because of all the 'it all depends on the Member State policies' littered throughout, that whether PR transferable is decided on a case by case basis, depending on which country you hold the PR in and which country you want to go. Maybe I should contact specific embassies?

Any suggestions welcome, thanks!

Here's the reply:

Enquiry:

I hold a Malaysian passport and am entering into my 5th year with a residence permit for Hungary, where I'm employed. From what I understand, it's possible to apply for permanent residence after you have lived for 5 years there.

My question is, with PR status in Hungary, what rights do I have to live/work in other EU countries, specifically France, Norway, the UK and Spain?

Reply
The Council Directive 2003/109/EC of 25 November 2003 regulates the status of third-country nationals who are long-term residents in a Member State of the EU. Member States shall grant long-term resident status to third-country nationals who have resided legally and continuously within its territory for five years immediately prior to the submission of the relevant application.
To acquire long-term resident status, third-country nationals have to prove that they meet the conditions set out in the Directive, such as to have adequate resources and overall sickness insurance.

You can find the text of the Directive on
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/sit ... 440053.pdf

Long-term resident third-country nationals are guaranteed equal treatment with nationals of the EU in a wide range of economic and social matters. In certain cases, Member States may restrict equal treatment with nationals with respect to access to employment and to education. With the long-term resident status you will have the right to reside in the territory of other Member State for a period longer than three months, provided that conditions set out in article 14 are met.
The exercise of this last right will only happen in coordination with the removal of new internal borders. It means that residence permits issued in Hungary will serve as equivalent to travel documents only if Hungary becomes a fully-fledged member of the Schnegen area. It is foreseen for 1/1/2008.

For further information you are required to visit
http://europa.eu/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l23034.htm
http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAct ... anguage=en

In Hungary the directive was transposed by the law No II/2007 (2007. Ã©vi II. tÃ¶rvÃ©ny a harmadik orszÃ¡gbeli Ã¡llampolgÃ¡rok beutazÃ¡sÃ¡rÃ³l Ã©s tartÃ³zkodÃ¡sÃ¡rÃ³l).
Article 38 enumerates conditions under which an EC long-term resident permit (EK letelepedÃ©si engedÃ©ly) can be issued.
http://fn.opten.hu/cgi-bin/fnofs.cgi?st ... ate4=&teda

For further information you are required to contact the Immigration and Nationality Office (Customer Office No 1).

BevÃ¡ndorlÃ¡si Ã©s Ã

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:13 pm

Since you have PR in Hungary, that is not such a useful answer from them. Write them back and clarify that you are interested in moving to (FILL IN A SPECIFIC COUNTRY), and ask them for the details of whether it would be allowed. The more detail you can give them, the better (and less generic) an answer you will get back.

Sze · Post by **Sze** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:46 pm

Ironically, my more specific request turned out to be not specific enough (or the person on the other hand was fed up with me?

Enquiry:

I hold a non-EU passport but have PR in Hungary. Can I move to France or Norway and get work without companies having to sponsor a work permit for me?

Reply

Thank you for contacting the Citizens Signpost Service. The Citizens Signpost Service provides personalised advice and guidance about specific problems that European citizens encounter when exercising their Internal Market rights.
Your query does not fall inside the scope of this Service for one (or more) of the following reasons:

* Does not come from an European Union citizen (or someone entitled to certain single market rights by assimilation or family membership);
* Is not specific

tt · Post by tt » Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:16 pm

I wonder how you are going with this?

I haven't looked at this area of law for a while, but think about the following.

You are trying to get PR in Hungary. Sounds like you think you will get that, having satisfied the 5 year requirement and the sickness insurance/sufficient resources test. Under the new Hungarian legislation (law No II/2007 (2007. Ã©vi II. tÃ¶rvÃ©ny http://fn.opten.hu/cgi-bin/fnofs.cgi?st ... ate4=&teda ) you will get the "long-term resident's EC residence permit", which is the permit referred to in EC Directive 2003/109/EC. The tests for getting the permit are, as I read it, as you say, simply a way to ensure you are not going to "bum off the social security".

Now, that Permit (which you will refer to as the PR permit) will permit you to reside and work in other EU countries except the UK, Ireland and Denmark. (So, too, they are the only EU countries who don't (and don't have to) issue these types of permits. Since the issuer here is Hungary, your situation falls under that EC Directive 2003/109/EC.)

So yes, you would be able to use your new PR Permit to work and reside in France etc. Article 14 of the Directive makes it clear that you don't have to go for employment - but you need to satisfy those "are they going to bum off the social security?" tests again - bank statements and whatnot.
Schengen is irrelevant to all of this, subject to the fact that you can't use the Permit to enter Schengenland without a visa until Hungary joins Schengen's border-free zone on 1st January 2008. But as you don't need a visa for Schengen anyway (as a Malaysian), even this aspect becomes irrelevant.

Remember, though, that this Directive allows the EU State you go to with your PR Permit to restrict your ability to get employment and wrt education (though otherwise to treat you as if you were a EU Citizen). So you would likely be treated no more favourably than a Hungarian in this respect (up to French law).

I mean, Schengen will help you in the sense that you could in practice reside in France after 1st January, 2008 and not be bound by the 3 month restriction you have at the moment (because, unlike now, you would not have to cross a border which checks passports). But once you have your PR Permit, this doesn't matter anyway.

By the way, the Hungarian law will be in English somewhere (the EU likes to remind Hungary and the other countries of this from time to time) so I would check with the Hungarian Citizen Service ( Tel.: (1) 463-9233
www.bmbah.hu )

(I'm a little rusty in this area at the moment, but hope this helps somewhat).

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PR in Hungary - can I work in other EU countries?

PR in Hungary - can I work in other EU countries?

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