New Info on Court Case

runie80 · Post by **runie80** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:59 pm

I would say it depends

thats why i wanted some of the people to attend the hearing so we can gauge the way things have been drifting

But it appears that DOJ is in problem if the decision was swinging in their favour delaying it would be the last thing they would like to do.

Is there not a deadline when the case must be decided or just cancelled.

I personally dont believe there will be a decision on friday however i would like to be proven wrong on this one.

Also this is a high court case it means that challanging this case in supreme court is still the option available to both parties.

So i dont see the showdown finishing anytime soon !

Keeping my self positive though but also being realistic

walrusgumble · Post by **walrusgumble** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:30 pm

runie80 wrote:
microlab wrote:
Hearing postponed until June 26th...

Waiting for a new goverenment to form.
You have a point there may be thats corect.

But i think these delays are just waste of time for us as its complicating things further.

can anyone get the reason for postponing

i heard only two cases on the list before kumars were heard today. like the kumar case, any case for the high court takes more than a day, and then there is the day for the judgement its self. it is one of the most frustrating things about bringing a case, in any issue be it family law matters etc, there is never a guarantee a case will be heard on the day it is meant to be heard as ye have noticed.

if this case goes back to the list for mention or fixed date list, surely the barrister for the kumars will seek a hearing date and ensure it gets priority.(hopefully it wont go that far)

i would not fear if anyone thinks there is actually a conspiracy between the government and court. the court are not afraid of using its independence that it enjoys from the governement. if it is clear that this government policy infringes the eu law and there is no evidence of justifible infringement, the court will be bound to find in favour of the kumars and yourselves. all i am saying at this point is try not to waste your energy on thinkig like that, ye will loose your optisim. (i know its easy for me to say but keep the chin up, i bet the kumars or their legal representatives have lost faith)

although a completely seperate issue to this, check out a case called bode v minister for justice november 2006 before justice finlay geoghegan. it is an ibc issue, but look at why the court found against the minister. it just gives an example of where an individuals interests are more important than the state, (an example where article 8.1 of echr was succesfully used over 8.2) in courts.ie. just gives you an example that the court will not ignore the rights of a person.

microlab · Post by **microlab** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:47 pm

although a completely seperate issue to this, check out a case called bode v minister for justice november 2006 before justice finlay geoghegan.

I am not having rant (GO) at you this time, but how come you have such an inside knowledge which could only be accessesed by few?

walrusgumble · Post by **walrusgumble** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:58 pm

i did a business - law course in college ( a lot of eu law) by the way do not take this as legal advice, they are a few pointers.

all law there is an exception all most to each rule, i am sure you might notice this in your country's laws. so it would be hard to give a detailed answer covering everything on a site like this.

i have always tried to kept track on issues such as this, as a few employees that i have in my business are foreign (i do care for them) also i knew what it was like for my brother and sister trying to get there spouses over here. i know alot of people in the legal profession (it is true irish people can have discussions over a few 10 or 12 drinks lol). and i use to work in the dept of finance and had many dealings with dept of justice so i have an idea of what goes on

with regard to knowledge accessible to a few.. well as far as legal issues are concerned irish case law can be found on many sites such as bailii.org, courts.ie etc, and of course the bible for european law- europa.eu.
check out some libraries in dublin or sneak into colleges that do law to check up on legal text books to give you an idea that constitutions and rights under eu law are not always absolute, particular for people who are not nationals of eu (but again there are exceptions to rules)
there appears to be many well informed people here to.

Post by **archigabe** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:43 pm

I was not surprised that the hearing got postponed...the judge had four cases before him, so it's not surprising that there was no time.
I heard from the Europa Signpost Service that they were following the Kumar Case to find out how Ireland is treating the E.U 1 issue.
I am pasting the text of the Signpost Service Reply...

Reply
In response to your queries:

1. There is currently a case before the Irish courts in relation to a situation similar to yours where a non-EU spouse is being denied residence in Ireland on the basis that the couple have not previously lived in another EU country. A judgement is expected in this case on 15th June next. I would recommend that you contact either the Eurojus in Ireland who is a solicitor employed by the European Commission to ascertain the outcome of this decision after 15th June and the implications for your situation - www.euireland.ie

Pending the outcome of this case, you should contact the Department of Justice to appeal the decision in your case referring to the case before the High Court in Ireland (Kumar).

You should also be aware that the European Commission is currently investigating the practices of the Department of Justice in Ireland in refusing to grant residence cards to non-EU nationals in your husbandÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s position.

2. In theory, your husband can be deported since he has been denied residence by the Irish authorities. However, it is unlikely that your husband will be deported unless he can be shown to be a serious threat to public policy, public security or public health. Also, pending the outcome of the Kumar case, the authorities in Ireland will be slow to attempt to deport non-EU spouses of EU nationals exercising their Treaty rights in Ireland. If any attempt is made to deport your husband, I would recommend that you contact SOLVIT which is an EU network established to resolve problems caused by misapplication of EU law by public administrations. The website address for SOLVIT is www.ec.europa.eu/solvit. The service is free of charge.

3. To protect your position in Ireland and ensure that you are informed of the outcome of the Kumar decision, I recommend that you contact the Immigrant Council of Ireland and also the Migrant Rights Association of Ireland Ã¢â‚¬â€œ www.immigrantcouncil.ie and www.mrci.ie respectively.

The advice given by the Signpost Service legal experts is independent advice and shall not be considered to be the opinion of the European Commission. As such it will not in anyway bind the Commission.

Note: To post another enquiry, please visit the Signpost Service Web Site or contact EUROPE DIRECT.

Post by **archigabe** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:01 pm

walrusgumble wrote: with regard to knowledge accessible to a few.. well as far as legal issues are concerned irish case law can be found on many sites such as bailii.org, courts.ie etc, and of course the bible for european law- europa.eu.
c.

Here's a link to the Europa website with links to legal cases regarding European Free labour movement legislation

http://ec.europa.eu/citizensrights/fron ... dex_en.htm
http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj/ci ... ent_en.htm
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 1):EN:HTML

SanMex · Post by **SanMex** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:10 pm

Guys my husband got this answer from the Citizen Sign Post

Enquiry
41427: Hi I would like to contact you in relation to my wifes EU1 application. We got married on oct 2006 Iam a Latvian national, she is a Mexican national.She applied for a Permision to Remain,the Dep of Justice(DoJ) received our documents on the 11 of dec 06. On monday June 11th we will had been waiting for a response 6 months already. She has contacted the DoJ to inquire about the status of her application, but they told her she will have to wait longer than 6 months, thou they dont specify how long!.I heard theres a new law that only if she lived in a previous EU state then she will be granted residence is this accurate?. I read about this Directive 2004/38/EC and for what I understood its my right to have my wife joining me here. I would like to know what can I do and what are my rights as a EU citizen in this case. Thank you very much for your attention. Looking foward to hear from you.

Reply
Directive 2004/38 provides that a residence card should be granted to a non-EU spouse of an EU national within six months of submission of the application. The Directive does not include any requirement that the couple should have lived in another Member State prior to making an application for a residence card. This requirement has been introduced unilaterally by the Irish authorities and is currently the subject of court proceedings in which a judgement is expected on 15th June next. You should watch for media reports on the judgement which should be reported in the national press. Alternatively, you may wish to contact the offices of the European Commission Representation in Ireland to learn the outcome - 01 634 1111.

To resolve your situation and expedite issue of a residence card for your wife, you may wish to refer the matter to SOLVIT which is an EU network established to resolve problems caused by misapplication of EU law by public administrations. Further details of the SOLVIT service together with contact details for SOLVIT representatives in both Latvia and Ireland can be found on the following website: www.ec.europa.eu/solvit/

The advice given by the Signpost Service legal experts is independent advice and shall not be considered to be the opinion of the European Commission. As such it will not in anyway bind the Commission.

Note: To post another enquiry, please visit the Signpost Service Web Site or contact EUROPE DIRECT.

SanMex · Post by **SanMex** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:11 pm

This means that the court case IS happening on the 15th I mean if thats the information they have it must be truth. Hopefully then very soon we will have an answer, lets all wish its in our favour.

BigAppleWoodenShoe · Post by **BigAppleWoodenShoe** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:51 pm

Did anyone sign up for the immigration letter? Well, I did...the court case going on June 14th and 15th is in the UK. Ireland is probably going to see what the UK is going to do before making any decisions. I was wondering because I haven't heard of any cases specifically going on in Ireland.

runie80 · Post by **runie80** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:56 pm

BigAppleWoodenShoe wrote:Did anyone sign up for the immigration letter? Well, I did...the court case going on June 14th and 15th is in the UK. Ireland is probably going to see what the UK is going to do before making any decisions. I was wondering because I haven't heard of any cases specifically going on in Ireland.

what this Uk case relates too ?

Is it the same like Eu directive thing ?

Post by **archigabe** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:13 pm

Hi Woodenshoe,
what's this immigration newsletter about? Which website did you sign on for it? Can you copy and paste the letter please?]

BigAppleWoodenShoe · Post by **BigAppleWoodenShoe** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:42 pm

It is from Workpermit.com. (look up and left

)

Here is a URL

http://www.workpermit.com/news/newslett ... 5e8051e3e9

On June 14th & 15th, there will be a judicial review by the High Court of the United Kingdom regarding changes to British immigration law that were applied retrospectively. The Court will specifically examine a change that means that people will have to reside in Britain for five years instead of four to gain Indefinite Leave to Remain.

The question to be decided upon is the legality of making changes to the law and then applying those changes retrospectively to people who obtained visas under the previous rules. The determination may affect other changes, such as those to the Highly Skilled Migrant Programme (HSMP).

Maybe Ireland still can't decide for itself?

dsab85 · Post by **dsab85** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:31 am

No, I don't believe that's the case we are looking for.

I guess we will just have to wait and see until tomorrow. If there really is another Irish Case (and Solvit and the Immigrationcouncil seem to indicate that firmly) then the postponement of the other case makes sense. The Judge wants to wait for this Judgement first. Why make 2 Judgement on the same Issue?

I guess we will all have to call them tomorrow evening or Monday morning to see where we stand.

runie80 · Post by **runie80** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:59 am

Will this have any bearing on the JJudgement ?

Merkel warns EU over constitution
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6751529.stm

Some more here
EU warns Dutch over secondment rules
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2 ... ndment.php

Any comments regarding this ?

Flor_mz · Post by **Flor_mz** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:29 pm

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how this relates to our situation...

It's too far-fetched, our Rights are much more basic (and should be easier to defend) than the ones of the "seconded foreing workers"

dsab85 · Post by **dsab85** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:58 pm

I agree. I don't think these two have anything to do with it. That would be a bit too far fetched.

runie80 · Post by **runie80** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:00 pm

Ok Guys appologies

Its called "Hanging onto every straw while drowning"

Anyone else with some direct news then ?

BigAppleWoodenShoe · Post by **BigAppleWoodenShoe** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:10 pm

Ok, everyone was talking about the 15th being an important date, which is why I thought the UK case might be relevant. Since Ireland is trying to oppose restrictions somewhat retroactively...I thought there might be a correlation...but I guess not.

Anyway, I called the immigration council today, as I am sure all of you have done on prior multiple occasions. They told me there will be no decision tomorrow, June 15th...we are still waiting for the Kumar case on June 26th. One case was already heard and judge found that the non-EU spouse should not granted residence. Now, the rep from the council told me in that particular case, the couple got married in Ireland. She said maybe it will be different for people who were married and living together prior to coming here. But who knows!!! Unfortunately, she also told me to be ready to appeal their decision. Ugh....

SanMex · Post by **SanMex** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:51 pm

Its so unfair!! What then is going to happend to people who falls in love in Ireland!!?? Its the most ridiculous thing in the world. If they only enterview people they would save us this non sense!!!
We dont have why to sue nobody they should pay mor attention to what are they doing.

dsab85 · Post by **dsab85** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:24 pm

BTW., Ireland has a new Justice Minister since today. So it might be time for each of us to fire off an email to inform him about this unacceptable situation. If enough people complain he might have a look into it. You never know.

I already did that. He has his own website, and on there is his email adress. On the FF website they also have a contact form to reach him via email.

Sahil · Post by **Sahil** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:04 am

BigAppleWoodenShoe wrote:Ok, everyone was talking about the 15th being an important date, which is why I thought the UK case might be relevant. Since Ireland is trying to oppose restrictions somewhat retroactively...I thought there might be a correlation...but I guess not.

Anyway, I called the immigration council today, as I am sure all of you have done on prior multiple occasions. They told me there will be no decision tomorrow, June 15th...we are still waiting for the Kumar case on June 26th. One case was already heard and judge found that the non-EU spouse should not granted residence. Now, the rep from the council told me in that particular case, the couple got married in Ireland. She said maybe it will be different for people who were married and living together prior to coming here. But who knows!!! Unfortunately, she also told me to be ready to appeal their decision. Ugh....

Don;t tell me that... Man :O.....What is happening here in this country:O .... i had contacted to SOLVIT (Austria) yesterday evening .. and they confirmed that the decision is going to be today 15th June ..... i am going to send him an email now and let's see what he says !!

Sahil

runie80 · Post by **runie80** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:25 am

I personally wouldnt hold my breath.

There are all different sort of dates circulating arround.Nothing is clear.
Also its not clear if we get the decision in our favour then how long it will take to implement.

Everything is on a knifes edge !

runie80 · Post by **runie80** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:37 am

Is this the Judgement we are waiting for ?

N DISTILLERY COURT 2
Mr Justice Hanna
At 11 o'clock
2002 463 JR FLAHERTY V DPP (Judgt)
2004 93 JR POPOV & ORS V MINISTER FOR JUSTICE EQUALITY & LAW REFORM (Judgt)
2005 774 JR TREACY V DPP (Judgt)

http://www.courts.ie/legaldiary.nsf/8e9 ... enDocument

BigAppleWoodenShoe · Post by **BigAppleWoodenShoe** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:49 am

Maybe, runie80, but I really have no idea. I mean, the immigration council rep specifically told me the Kumar case. But maybe she was misinformed? The title of the case you found sounds like it should have something to do with it. Regardless, I doubt they will have an answer today anyway. It's so hard to find someone who can actually tell us what is going on??? Let's say the Solvit person is right and has the inside info...then why isn't the immigration council in Ireland aware of it? Argh...

runie80 · Post by **runie80** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:01 am

See what happens

Looks like there is a SMOKE SCREEN around all this.In my opinion it should be as transparent as it could be.

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New Info on Court Case