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Good news for EC citizen Spouse-Point to right direction

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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brownbonno
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Good news for EC citizen Spouse-Point to right direction

Post by brownbonno » Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:27 pm

As i ever spot out in my posts,appeal the decision and you may have claims for delays in decision and lost of earnings.The European parliament petition made this correspondence-

Summary of petition
The petitioner, who is a Polish national and who has resided lawfully in Ireland since 2004, complains that the Irish authorities have rejected her Bulgarian spouse’s application for a permanent residence permit in Ireland. She cannot understand this decision since her spouse has resided lawfully in Ireland since 2002 and she is therefore asking Parliament to verify whether the attitude of the Irish authorities is in conformity with EU provisions on right of residence for Union citizens and their family members.

Commission reply, received on 5 May 2007.
Mrs. XXXXXX, a Polish national exercising her right to move and reside freely in Ireland, complains that her Bulgarian husband’s application for a residence card under Directive 2004/38/EC, lodged in August 2006, was rejected by the Irish authorities on grounds that he has not submitted any evidence that he had been granted residence in another Member State, as provided by Irish law.
The Commission services have received this complaint directly from Mrs XXXX and provided her with a substantial reply on 20 February 2007.
The reply stressed that every citizen of the Union shall have the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States, subject to the limitations and conditions laid down in this Treaty and by the measures adopted to give it effect. The respective limitations and conditions are to be found in Directive 2004/38/EC on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States.
When Mrs XXXX’s husband lodged the application, he was not a Union citizen yet. Under the conditions of the Directive, third-country family members of a Union citizen have the right to accompany or join her in the host Member State, where the Union citizen is exercising her right to move and reside freely.
As the petitioner was exercising her Community right to move and reside freely in Ireland, her husband had the right of residence in Ireland under Article 7(2) of the Directive.
In order to comply with those provisions of the Directive, Ireland brought into force the European Communities (Free Movement of Persons) Regulations 2006.
Section 3(2) of the 2006 Regulations provides that these Regulations shall not apply to a family member unless the family member is lawfully resident in another Member State and is seeking to enter the State in the company of a Union citizen in respect of whom he or she is a family member, or is seeking to join a Union citizen, in respect of whom he or she is a family member, who is lawfully present in the State.
By its judgment of 9 January 2007 in case C-1/05 Jia, the European Court of Justice confirmed that Community law does not require Member States to make the grant of a residence permit to nationals of a non-Member State, who are members of the family of a Community national who has exercised his or her right of free movement, subject to the condition that those family members have previously been residing lawfully in another Member State.Section 3(2) of the 2006 Regulations would appear to be contrary to Community law as the right of residence in Ireland cannot be made conditional upon having resided legally in another Member State before arriving in Ireland.[/u] The Commission services envisage drawing the attention of the Irish authorities to this judgment and require that the Irish legislation fully complies with Community law.
Knowledge is Power

brownbonno
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Post by brownbonno » Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:48 pm

This a floodgate for people in same situation to send petitions to the Petition committee.It does no harm,but more to your favour.
Knowledge is Power

runie80
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Post by runie80 » Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:28 pm

Let me be the first one to say THANKS brownbono

Finally a realistic ray of hope !!!

I am sure it will seal several lips :lol:
In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing.

Flor_mz
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Post by Flor_mz » Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:37 pm

...Community law does not require Member States to make the grant of a residence permit to nationals of a non-Member State, who are members of the family of a Community national who has exercised his or her right of free movement, subject to the condition that those family members have previously been residing lawfully in another Member State.
Is it just me, or this is phrased in a "funny" way? I know it is the textual quote on the Jia case, but the part "Community law does not require Member States to make the grant of a residence permit ...subject to the condition that those family members have previously been residing lawfully in another Member State" sounds a bit ambiguous to me. It doesn't seem too definite, it's like: It's not an European requirement, but a Member State may ask for that...

What I'm saying probably doesn't make any sense, but I just think is not phrased in a very "straight forward" style... Does anyone else agree?
Florencia

brownbonno
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Post by brownbonno » Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:50 pm

Flor_mz wrote:
...Community law does not require Member States to make the grant of a residence permit to nationals of a non-Member State, who are members of the family of a Community national who has exercised his or her right of free movement, subject to the condition that those family members have previously been residing lawfully in another Member State.
Is it just me, or this is phrased in a "funny" way? I know it is the textual quote on the Jia case, but the part "Community law does not require Member States to make the grant of a residence permit ...subject to the condition that those family members have previously been residing lawfully in another Member State" sounds a bit ambiguous to me. It doesn't seem too definite, it's like: It's not an European requirement, but a Member State may ask for that...



What I'm saying probably doesn't make any sense, but I just think is not phrased in a very "straight forward" style... Does anyone else agree?
The text is correctly worded.
Knowledge is Power

BigAppleWoodenShoe
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Post by BigAppleWoodenShoe » Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:55 pm

No, Flor_mz, you are right. I had to read it a couple times just make sure what it was saying. (English might be my first language, but legal jargon is in a world of its own... :? ) This statement verifies that the European court has already ruled in favor of the current Irish restrictions. However, they feel the Irish legislation may be infringing upon the free movement directive. So, mainly, this topic is now going to be up for debate as seen in the Euro-parliament petition. It may be a step in the right direction, but given the fact that there has already been a ruling in favor of the legislation and that the beaucratic process is exceptionally slow, I believe this is going to take awhile to clean up.
Dutch husband, American wife, applied for a residence card, after 7 months got a Stamp 4 visa for two years. :)

Flor_mz
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Post by Flor_mz » Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:21 pm

Thanks BigApple! I thought I was the only one who found the wording complicated and confusing.

In regards to the actual impact, I'm also pesimistic. This just confirms that we have a point, and I think we knew that from the very beginning. As I said in previous posts, we don't need a loophole to be granted residence; instead the process should be simple, efficient and fast, given that the right of the spouses to be with each other shouldn't even be debated.

My point is that though it's plain to see we are entitled to live with our EU spouses in EU, and that though EU directives and previuos legislation (such as Jia) agree with us, the Irish Government doesn't seem to care.

Will they be eventually forced to accept the non EU spouses of EU nationals? I'm sure.

How long is it going to take? Impossible to know.

We are probably going back home next month. We don't need this. I'm not going to jump through hoops just because the Irish government says so. As far as my husband and me are concerned, they can keep this little green island to themselves.

What really makes us furious is that we spent a lot of money in this venture, our life standard took a plunge since we came here (living on only one income), and we are now left without the possibility of trying in the UK (where we didn't go in the first place because we were adviced that immigration was simpler in Ireland!). I had checked several times with the Irish Embassy, went through the official websites before coming to this country and I was not infomed of this at any point. If that would have been the case, we would't be here in the first place...

Going back to the point of this conversation, though I think what Brownbonno posted may be a ray of hope, the time and effort that will take to actually achieve anything may be not worth it (at least for us).
Florencia

Static
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Post by Static » Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:27 pm

I am actually contemplating immigrating to Singapore at this stage. Even if my work permit works out... I'll still have to eventually leave and not be able to settle :( I hope this works out. Brownbonno.. thanks for posting and please give us contact details?

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:17 pm

Flor_mz wrote:
...Community law does not require Member States to make the grant of a residence permit to nationals of a non-Member State, who are members of the family of a Community national who has exercised his or her right of free movement, subject to the condition that those family members have previously been residing lawfully in another Member State.
Is it just me, or this is phrased in a "funny" way? I know it is the textual quote on the Jia case, but the part "Community law does not require Member States to make the grant of a residence permit ...subject to the condition that those family members have previously been residing lawfully in another Member State" sounds a bit ambiguous to me. It doesn't seem too definite, it's like: It's not an European requirement, but a Member State may ask for that...

What I'm saying probably doesn't make any sense, but I just think is not phrased in a very "straight forward" style... Does anyone else agree?
thanks for the insight florencia...I agree with you, and I would feel more comfortable if the statement were to say ''Community law requires Member States do not make the grant of a residence permit to nationals of a non-Member State, who are members of the family of a Community national who has exercised his or her right of free movement subject to the condition that those family members have previously been residing lawfully in another Member State''

But the statement doesnt exactly seem to encourage member states to make conditions when they transpose 'EU free movement' directives into local laws...

Maybe we can take some time to research the documents on the European Parliament website which have more details on issues of concern to us. All that I've looked at so far seem encouraging.For your own research consider...


http://europa.eu/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l33152.htm

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/comparl/l ... ult_en.htm

http://europa.eu/scadplus/leg/en/s17000.htm

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/comparl/l ... /07_en.htm

dsab85
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Post by dsab85 » Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:58 pm

Hi together,

I thought this might fit in here as well.

It appears to be true that the court has decided in favour of the Justice Department in the Kumar Case. I just got the following response from Solvit:

****************
The Irish SOLVIT Centre understands that the Court has decided in favour of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. However, we have not received the approved written Judgment yet. This will be posted on the Courts Service website (www.courts.ie). There is also the possibility that the case will be appealed to the Supreme Court.

Until SOLVIT receive instruction from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, we cannot advise on refused residency applications. I will let you know as soon as we receive further information.
****************

I believe the whole thing might take quite some time to be settled.

Cheers,
dsab85

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:55 pm

Flor_mz wrote:
...Community law does not require Member States to make the grant of a residence permit to nationals of a non-Member State, who are members of the family of a Community national who has exercised his or her right of free movement, subject to the condition that those family members have previously been residing lawfully in another Member State.
Is it just me, or this is phrased in a "funny" way? I know it is the textual quote on the Jia case, but the part "Community law does not require Member States to make the grant of a residence permit ...subject to the condition that those family members have previously been residing lawfully in another Member State" sounds a bit ambiguous to me. It doesn't seem too definite, it's like: It's not an European requirement, but a Member State may ask for that...

What I'm saying probably doesn't make any sense, but I just think is not phrased in a very "straight forward" style... Does anyone else agree?
The original judgement is written in swedish and seems to be badly translated into this english.

brownbonno, do you have a url for this petition to the european parl? i can not find it using google.

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:44 pm

Hi Directive,
the petitions section of the European Parliament can be found here...
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/parliamen ... e=EN&id=49

https://www.secure.europarl.europa.eu/p ... anguage=EN

https://www.secure.europarl.europa.eu/p ... anguage=en

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/opengov/faq_en.htm

Brownbonno, can you send the link to the summary of the petition submitted by the Polish and Bulgarian national that you posted at the beginning of the thread?
Thanks!

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:25 pm

Case files involving E.U -Non E.U spouse in Ireland which were petitioned to the European Parliament

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/registre/ ... 54_EN.doc
The petitioner asks the European Parliament to investigate the case of Mr Ogieriakhi, spouse of a EU-national, legally residing in Ireland from 1998, who sought, unsuccessfully, the renewal of his residence permit in 2004. The petitioner argues that the Irish authorities' persistence in their refusal is breaching the EC law, namely EC Directive 2004/38, whose deadline for transposition in the Member States was 30 April 2006, and the decision of the European Court of Justice C132/14 of 15 March 2005.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/registre/ ... 335_EN.doc

Petition 0646/2006 by Hanna Sobczak (Polish), on the rejection by the Irish authorities of her Bulgarian spouse’s application for a permanent residence permit in Ireland

1. Summary of petition

The petitioner, who is a Polish national and who has resided lawfully in Ireland since 2004, complains that the Irish authorities have rejected her Bulgarian spouse’s application for a permanent residence permit in Ireland. She cannot understand this decision since her spouse has resided lawfully in Ireland since 2002 and she is therefore asking Parliament to verify whether the attitude of the Irish authorities is in conformity with EU provisions on right of residence for Union citizens and their family members.





http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/ ... 9689en.pdf

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/ ... 3361en.pdf

CloggieVodka
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Good news: Case decision seems to infringe UN convention...

Post by CloggieVodka » Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:45 pm

I did some research and found the following:
[http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/m_mwctoc.htm]

- read the preamble, this may or may not relate to you, for those people affected by the recent court case, I would suggest reading the entire document of course, but especially articles 43 and 44...

Article 44
1. States Parties, recognizing that the family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State, shall take appropriate measures to ensure the protection of the unity of the families of migrant workers.


2. States Parties shall take measures that they deem appropriate and that fall within their competence to facilitate the reunification of migrant workers with their spouses or persons who have with the migrant worker a relationship that, according to applicable law, produces effects equivalent to marriage, as well as with their minor dependent unmarried children.


3. States of employment, on humanitarian grounds, shall favourably consider granting equal treatment, as set forth in paragraph 2 of the present article, to other family members of migrant workers.

--------

My take on this is that this recent legal fiasco (very apt wording in the Times), may be contrary to the intent of EU law, though not definatively outside that law . In any case, the United Nations (I assume Ireland is a member though I haven't checked) also guarantees such right to persons (again, read the preamble to check if it applies to you)... so... Is the UN a higher authority than the EU here? Also... Can this convention be regarded as key guidance for legislators ?

---- your ideas please!

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:55 pm

I doubt the UN can have any say in the issue.The UN is a body without any legal teeth, so even if they have lofty ideas on their website,I doubt the Irish govt. wil recognize it. When the Irish DOJ refuse to acknowledge even EU directives, the only way out is to drag them to the European court.And you cant do that unless you've exhausted all national recourses.

microlab
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Post by microlab » Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:17 pm

CloggieVodka
I did some research and found the following:
[http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/m_mwctoc.htm]

No relevance to the case

brownbonno
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Post by brownbonno » Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:24 pm

Sorry to be away for a while.Its sad that the long waited Kumar case went negative.Although i never expected anything from the case,especially when the bases of the case were not known.In any case the Jia case is still the clear route as far as the Irish article3(2) is concerned.
I sincerely encourage members to challenge the DoJ for them to have their rights respected.
Knowledge is Power

runie80
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Post by runie80 » Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:11 pm

Again i agree with brownbono here

The kumar case cannot be relied on as its details have not been made public.

Lets see when this Deadlock Breaks.
In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing.

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:09 pm

runie80 wrote:Again i agree with brownbono here

The kumar case cannot be relied on as its details have not been made public.

Lets see when this Deadlock Breaks.
Even though the lawyer for the Kumar case is going to the Supreme Court, I dont think we can expect anything positive from the case.Apparently he had been illegally living in Britain and Belgium and deported. It's really annoying the DOJ is classifying everyone in the same category even though we have a straight history to conveniently refuse residency rights.

dsab85
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Post by dsab85 » Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:11 pm

I am not sure why so many people see the Jia case as important in the context of our situation.

As far as I understand the Jia Case was about the residence permit for a non-eu parent of a non-eu spouse (who was legally resident in Sweden due to being married to a german citizen). I am not a legal expert, but that's a completely different situation to ours.

runie80
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Post by runie80 » Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:34 pm

dsab85 wrote:I am not sure why so many people see the Jia case as important in the context of our situation.

As far as I understand the Jia Case was about the residence permit for a non-eu parent of a non-eu spouse (who was legally resident in Sweden due to being married to a german citizen). I am not a legal expert, but that's a completely different situation to ours.

Says it all really.
Wait man wait see what happens
In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing.

dsab85
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Post by dsab85 » Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:44 pm

I gave up on waiting a long time ago. Life is too short to wait...

BTW... if you looked into the Jia case you will see that it is a slightly different situation to ours.

brownbonno
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Post by brownbonno » Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:46 pm

dsab85 wrote:I am not sure why so many people see the Jia case as important in the context of our situation.

As far as I understand the Jia Case was about the residence permit for a non-eu parent of a non-eu spouse (who was legally resident in Sweden due to being married to a german citizen). I am not a legal expert, but that's a completely different situation to ours.
Yes,since you are not a legal expert.Certains things should be accepted ----hook and linen.Otherwise we will be running around in a circle.
The judgement was quite clear '' case C-1/05 Jia, the European Court of Justice confirmed that Community law does not require Member States to make the grant of a residence permit to nationals of a non-Member State, who are members of the family of a Community national who has exercised his or her right of free movement, subject to the condition that those family members have previously been residing lawfully in another Member State.''
Knowledge is Power

runie80
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Post by runie80 » Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:15 pm

Once again i fully agree with Brownbono

anyone who cannot understand his simple logic dosent i dont know what to say to that .

If you are waiting one year for all this there is no way you wont understand this.
In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing.

dsab85
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Post by dsab85 » Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:30 pm

OK, you continue to hang onto that straw, and I continue living my life ...

And btw... I am still not convinced 8)

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