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Curious George

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nicgentile
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Curious George

Post by nicgentile » Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:56 pm

I was speaking to a couple of guys. One guy is a refugee from Ethiopia, the others from Sudan.

The main issue was that this guy came here on his passport, (Ethiopian) thru a visitors visa, claimed amnesty and was granted a letter saying his refugee status had been recognized, and bam ILR in his passport soon after. All this is the span of one year six months. Never been in the UK before, now he has Indefinite Leave to remain, a business and a better lifestyle than most of us.

I always thought that when you became a refugee, you forsake the citizenship of your country. Hence, your passport of your country becomes null and void pending new documents being issued by your host country.

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Post by John » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:00 pm

Hence, your passport of your country becomes null and void pending new documents being issued by your host country.
Think about it! Quite simply, does the UK have power to revoke a person's citizenship .... of another country! I think the answer to that question should be quite obvious.

If the Home Office has recognised that he is a refugee I for one am very pleased to welcome him to the UK, and I hope he has a long and prosperous life here. After all, that is surely what it is all about .... civilised countries granting protection from those whose life is in danger. (As compared to those that are merely economic migrants pretending to be refugees.)
Last edited by John on Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
John

nicgentile
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Post by nicgentile » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:27 pm

Ideally, I thought being a refugee, you denounced your citizenship. Hence by doing that your passport would be void. In this guy's letter from the HO, its written that he has been granted Indefinite Leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom as a refugee. Its endorsed on his passport. I was just curious. Doesn't exactly bother me, just curious.

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Post by JAJ » Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:03 am

John wrote: If the Home Office has recognised that he is a refugee I am one am very pleased to welcome him to the UK, and I hope he has a long and prosperous life here. After all, that is surely what it is all about .... civilised countries granting protection from those whose life is in danger. (As compared to those that are merely economic migrants pretending to be refugees.)
Although if a "refugee" still manages to use the passport of his old country, and worse still, visits his old country, then it's legitimate to question the bona fides of his refugee status.

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Post by sakura » Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:07 am

nicgentile wrote:Ideally, I thought being a refugee, you denounced your citizenship. Hence by doing that your passport would be void. In this guy's letter from the HO, its written that he has been granted Indefinite Leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom as a refugee. Its endorsed on his passport. I was just curious. Doesn't exactly bother me, just curious.
Well, you are a refugee mostly because of circumstances out of one's control. War refugees, for example, do not want to NOT be a citizen of their country, but are forced to flee. There is no international mandate that says you should denounce your citizenship for any reason (unless country governments do not allow or recognise dual nationality). But in this case, the guy isn't even a BC yet, so if he was to denounce his citizenship, he'd be stateless.
Being a refugee doesn't mean you can't travel or anything. So technically you can carry any citizenship you like (but, if you are, say, both a Lebanese and an American citizen, then you probably can't claim asylum because you can always go to the other country for safety?).

BTW ILE/ILR was given to refugees before, but not anymore. This was mainly because applications used to take sooo long that by the time they were recognised as refugees, they had already completed the ILR qualifying time. At least that's my take on it. The rules changed recently, but even someone here for 3 months would have been given ILR. Now it is ELR which isn't permanent and one would need to apply for ILR after 5 years.

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Re: Curious George

Post by Christophe » Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:36 pm

nicgentile wrote:I always thought that when you became a refugee, you forsake the citizenship of your country. Hence, your passport of your country becomes null and void pending new documents being issued by your host country.
No, as noted above, the UK is not able to revoke a citizenship of another country that someone may hold.

In point of practice, people who are in the process of claiming refugee status or asylum usually find that their passports are held at the Home Office while their claim is looked into. If the claim is granted, their passports would normally be returned to them and, assuming that they have not expired and the issuing country has not revoked them, such passports remain valid documents for travel.

People who have claimed asylum cannot generally travel back to their country of origin without jeopardising their status in the UK while they remain refugees in the UK - perhaps that is what you're thinking of. There is, however, nothing in law or regulation or in practice to prevent such people from using their passports (if still valid) to travel to another, third country.

Once ILR has been granted, one could argue that their immigration status in the UK is no longer dependent (directly) on the asylum claim anyway. Even so, one could no doubt question the legitimacy of the original asylum claim if a person is prepared to travel back to the country of origin.

Having said that, though, situations do change with time, and countries that were once unstable and where once a person might have been in danger do, sometimes, regain a degree of stability. (Rwanda is one obvious case in point.) These sorts of changes over time are likely to be relevant quite often, given the lamentable delays in the Home Office dealing with aysum claims, certainly during the late 1990s and early 2000s.

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Post by Dawie » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:13 pm

Having said that, though, situations do change with time, and countries that were once unstable and where once a person might have been in danger do, sometimes, regain a degree of stability. (Rwanda is one obvious case in point.) These sorts of changes over time are likely to be relevant quite often, given the lamentable delays in the Home Office dealing with aysum claims, certainly during the late 1990s and early 2000s.
There is also an argument that the UK government purposely slows down applicants requests for asylum in the hope that by the time the asylum application is processed the applicant's country of origin is suitably stable (at least as far as the UK government is concerned) for the asylum application to be denied.

The problem with this approach is that the UK goverment's measure of a country's stability is often far removed from that of human rights groups. Zimbabwe is a case in point.
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

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Post by Christophe » Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:40 pm

Dawie wrote:There is also an argument that the UK government purposely slows down applicants requests for asylum in the hope that by the time the asylum application is processed the applicant's country of origin is suitably stable (at least as far as the UK government is concerned) for the asylum application to be denied.
Are the delays deliberate or merely due to incompetence? Perhaps we shall never know...

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Post by adindas » Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:28 pm

I fully agree with this statement. Genuine refugees are people who flee from death sentence, torture, etc. Those who pretend to be, have faked documents, testemonies are thieves who steal the place and opportunity from these people and should be punished and condemmed by community.
Adindas
John wrote: If the Home Office has recognised that he is a refugee I for one am very pleased to welcome him to the UK, and I hope he has a long and prosperous life here. After all, that is surely what it is all about .... civilised countries granting protection from those whose life is in danger. (As compared to those that are merely economic migrants pretending to be refugees.)

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curious george

Post by peppa p » Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:45 pm

can one then travel back to their country if they have been a refugee and been granted BC and travelling on a british passport

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Re: curious george

Post by Christophe » Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:13 pm

peppa p wrote:can one then travel back to their country if they have been a refugee and been granted BC and travelling on a british passport
Yes, there could be no legal objection to that from the British point of view. Of course, if the person has left the country of origin because it was unsafe, it might be dangerous to do so, but that's a different point. And, as noted above, the situation in the country of origin might well have improved or stabilised by the time that happens.

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Re: curious george

Post by JAJ » Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:34 am

peppa p wrote:can one then travel back to their country if they have been a refugee and been granted BC and travelling on a british passport
Yes but Britain won't be able to help you if the authorities of that country claim you as a citizen still and try to prevent you from leaving, or something.

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Post by JAJ » Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:35 am

adindas wrote:I fully agree with this statement. Genuine refugees are people who flee from death sentence, torture, etc.
Considering that many "refugees" in Britain have arrived from safe countries like France, it is legitimate to question how "genuine" they were in the first place.

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Post by jes2jes » Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:23 am

JAJ wrote:
adindas wrote:I fully agree with this statement. Genuine refugees are people who flee from death sentence, torture, etc.
Considering that many "refugees" in Britain have arrived from safe countries like France, it is legitimate to question how "genuine" they were in the first place.
I have always wondered why people do not claim refugee status in their first country of call if they are indeed fleeing persecution. Since the idea is to escape their home countries to a safe country.

Is life better in the UK than France, Ireland, Germany, Holland etc? I do not know but someone might know.
Praise The Lord!!!!

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Post by Christophe » Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:55 am

jes2jes wrote:
JAJ wrote:
adindas wrote:I fully agree with this statement. Genuine refugees are people who flee from death sentence, torture, etc.
Considering that many "refugees" in Britain have arrived from safe countries like France, it is legitimate to question how "genuine" they were in the first place.
I have always wondered why people do not claim refugee status in their first country of call if they are indeed fleeing persecution. Since the idea is to escape their home countries to a safe country.

Is life better in the UK than France, Ireland, Germany, Holland etc? I do not know but someone might know.
That last question a very good one. Ask five different people and you'd get five different answers, of course. My suspicion is that the attraction of the UK for refugees, over (apparently) many or most other countries in Europe, is multifactorial but is in part (and for different people in differing degrees) related to at least some of the following:
  • - history (real and perceived): the UK, England in particular, has (and/or is seen as having) a long history of welcoming disparate people and has a reputation (reasonable enough, I think) of genuine tolerance, certainly compared with most other countries of the world
    - the worldwide primacy of the English language
    - a recent history of relative economic success
    - wide (sometimes historical) connections in much of the rest of the world, particularly relevant for countries that were once in the British Empire (and are now, usually, in the Commonwealth), such that British institutions, systems etc have some degree of familiarity to many people that the institutions of many other countries do not have
    - a belief, possibly erroneous and presumably of most interest to people who are planning to "milk" the system, that the UK has benefits that are either more generous or else easier to access than those of other countries
    - the fact that Great Britain is an island: this is, I believe, something subconscious that can affect the thinking of people who are genuinely fleeing from strife or persecution - it gives an added feeling of safety to be further separated by the sea from the place of the troubles, which is usually on the great Eurasian-African land mass; as I say, this is subconscious and probably illogical in an era when most international travel is by air anyway, but I believe it is real nonetheless for some genuine asylum seekers

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Post by jes2jes » Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:53 am

Christophe wrote:
jes2jes wrote:
JAJ wrote:
adindas wrote:I fully agree with this statement. Genuine refugees are people who flee from death sentence, torture, etc.
Considering that many "refugees" in Britain have arrived from safe countries like France, it is legitimate to question how "genuine" they were in the first place.
I have always wondered why people do not claim refugee status in their first country of call if they are indeed fleeing persecution. Since the idea is to escape their home countries to a safe country.

Is life better in the UK than France, Ireland, Germany, Holland etc? I do not know but someone might know.
That last question a very good one. Ask five different people and you'd get five different answers, of course. My suspicion is that the attraction of the UK for refugees, over (apparently) many or most other countries in Europe, is multifactorial but is in part (and for different people in differing degrees) related to at least some of the following:
  • - history (real and perceived): the UK, England in particular, has (and/or is seen as having) a long history of welcoming disparate people and has a reputation (reasonable enough, I think) of genuine tolerance, certainly compared with most other countries of the world
    - the worldwide primacy of the English language
    - a recent history of relative economic success
    - wide (sometimes historical) connections in much of the rest of the world, particularly relevant for countries that were once in the British Empire (and are now, usually, in the Commonwealth), such that British institutions, systems etc have some degree of familiarity to many people that the institutions of many other countries do not have
    - a belief, possibly erroneous and presumably of most interest to people who are planning to "milk" the system, that the UK has benefits that are either more generous or else easier to access than those of other countries
    - the fact that Great Britain is an island: this is, I believe, something subconscious that can affect the thinking of people who are genuinely fleeing from strife or persecution - it gives an added feeling of safety to be further separated by the sea from the place of the troubles, which is usually on the great Eurasian-African land mass; as I say, this is subconscious and probably illogical in an era when most international travel is by air anyway, but I believe it is real nonetheless for some genuine asylum seekers
Nice piece but all these pops another question in my mind. If you flee country A to country B, how would you possibly cross borders without a visa or a passport? If suppose you flee from Iraq into Iran, Jordan, Syria or any Middle Eastern Country, don't you need any travel document (plus entry clearance) of some sort before an airline allows you to board to your destination in the first place?

Do airlines allow people to board who say they are fleeing persecution without the right travel documentation? I am baffled because I read somewhere that, person A was in Holland from the ME to claim asylum, went to France and ended up in the UK finally and they are allowed to stay whilst HO checks the validity of their claim. Now, I know many come on lorries from France etc but crossing the ocean is another issue and how come the UK government allows people to claim asylum here if they have left another 'rich and safe' country in the first place?

I do not have enough knowledge of the asylum policy but it would be interesting to know how such decisions are made just to 'excite' my knowledge base :wink:
Praise The Lord!!!!

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Post by adindas » Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:39 pm

I fully agree to question about how genuine they are. Iaf they already come from safe countries. Also someone who could return to their home countries, should also be question before it is announced safe.

These peole are thieves who have stolen the place of other people adn should be widely punished by the community.

Pantaiema
JAJ wrote:
adindas wrote:I fully agree with this statement. Genuine refugees are people who flee from death sentence, torture, etc.
Considering that many "refugees" in Britain have arrived from safe countries like France, it is legitimate to question how "genuine" they were in the first place.

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Post by avjones » Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:55 pm

jes2jes wrote: I have always wondered why people do not claim refugee status in their first country of call if they are indeed fleeing persecution. Since the idea is to escape their home countries to a safe country.

Is life better in the UK than France, Ireland, Germany, Holland etc? I do not know but someone might know.
I think it's reasonable that people might be fleeing persecution but also have a preferred destination. They may have family members in the UK who have already fled, make speak some English but not French, etc
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

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Post by adindas » Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:59 pm

What about people who have been rejected in France and claim asylum in the UK, claim they come form the back of the lorry, etc ?. This case have been displayed on BBC a few years ago ?

These people make genuine refugees difficult as they now subject to tougher measure.

Adindas
avjones wrote: I think it's reasonable that people might be fleeing persecution but also have a preferred destination. They may have family members in the UK who have already fled, make speak some English but not French, etc

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Post by avjones » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:10 am

If a person has claimed asylum in another EU country, and then comes to the UK and claims, they will be sent back under the Dublin Convention.
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

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Post by JAJ » Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:03 am

avjones wrote: I think it's reasonable that people might be fleeing persecution but also have a preferred destination. They may have family members in the UK who have already fled, make speak some English but not French, etc
The Refugee Convention does not give those fleeing persecution the right to select a permanent migration outcome to a favoured destination.

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Post by Fairtrade » Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:52 am

jes2jes wrote:
JAJ wrote:
adindas wrote:I fully agree with this statement. Genuine refugees are people who flee from death sentence, torture, etc.
Considering that many "refugees" in Britain have arrived from safe countries like France, it is legitimate to question how "genuine" they were in the first place.
I have always wondered why people do not claim refugee status in their first country of call if they are indeed fleeing persecution. Since the idea is to escape their home countries to a safe country.

Is life better in the UK than France, Ireland, Germany, Holland etc? I do not know but someone might know.


If I was a refugee, which I am not, and I was fleeing a country and let's say may first country of safety was Greece, I would find it difficult to communicate and therefore also hindering my integration into that society. This could be a reason why so many refugees flee to Britain, France or Spain, probably because these were the BIG colonizers and the languages that most people might have learned when in school abroad.

Then you can also argue that if they are "REAL Refugees" and fleeing from their country for safety they should claim asylum in the first country that offers them asylum or go back home.

Asylum seekers should be thankful that these countries grant them asylum in the first place. These countries don't have to give asylum to anyone so they should always remember this and respect their new countries by integrading. Beggars can't be choosers.

I don't think border hoppers that hop from country to country until they reach their dream destinations are real refugees and ought to be sent home if caught border hopping!!!

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Post by jes2jes » Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:25 am

Fairtrade wrote:
If I was a refugee, which I am not, and I was fleeing a country and let's say may first country of safety was Greece, I would find it difficult to communicate and therefore also hindering my integration into that society
If you are really are a refugee, the first thing on your mind would not be integration and language, but rather safety, shelter and food and to distant yourself from danger. It does not matter whether the people speak Greek, Italian, Latin or English in your first country of safety. That is secondary. I believe this would kick in later after you have been granted the right to travel after your status is approved, then you can decide on a place where you would fit as far as integration is concern.

I am not against integration in principle but what I find difficult to understand is the selective nature of countries you want to settle in if you have already reach country A which can give you all the basic and necessary amenities to make your life comfortable for the time being and which was the reason you 'fleed' from your country in the first place.

Life can be very funny most of the time :roll:
Praise The Lord!!!!

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Re: Curious George

Post by SYH » Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:34 am

nicgentile wrote:I was speaking to a couple of guys. One guy is a refugee from Ethiopia, the others from Sudan.

The main issue was that this guy came here on his passport, (Ethiopian) thru a visitors visa, claimed amnesty and was granted a letter saying his refugee status had been recognized, and bam ILR in his passport soon after. All this is the span of one year six months. Never been in the UK before, now he has Indefinite Leave to remain, a business and a better lifestyle than most of us.

I always thought that when you became a refugee, you forsake the citizenship of your country. Hence, your passport of your country becomes null and void pending new documents being issued by your host country.
Sounds like you have some visa envy

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Post by adindas » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:51 pm

This is true if you could find them cheating. But in reality, find this is easier said then done. Not huge amoutn of resources. Not to mention DPA in the UK and EU.

My personar expereince I have met quite a few number of people who have been granted refugees and then ILR. In fact they are just thieves who have stolen place from other people. Some poeple will tell you about this once they already in safer side and to prove how smart they are coud could the system.


Adindas

avjones wrote:If a person has claimed asylum in another EU country, and then comes to the UK and claims, they will be sent back under the Dublin Convention.

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