Topic 4 those got rejected and in process of appeal/hearing

[ILR1980]

I think there should be one topic for all those applicants who got their visa rejected and are in the process of appeal preparation or attending hearing in courts. we all can share information and give advices to each others according to our experiences and knowledge and can tell others how we are going to challenge the points of refusal raised by home office. It would also be helpful for those making fresh application as they will not repeat those mistakes made by us

My hearing is due in few days

Points of refusal and how we are going to tackle them

1} Bank letter from third party don't mention our names and bank from one team member did not mention that its regulated and did not say money can be transferable to uk

Defense: Its not our bank policy to write the name of non account holder in letter of account holder which is third party and bank has given us written letter that they don't have any authority to do so. Third party declaration letter and letter from lawyer is there for this purpose that third party giving us legal consent to use their money. we have also transferred money in our UK account because we were not able to get the letter from third party bank in format which home UKBA required. Got stamp paper from third part that they have transferred funds to us

2) Contract and advertisement contain name of only one director and one team member

Defense: in real business its only one director who sign on contract on behalf of his company and also people do advertisement with their company name not with their personal names . UkBA did not contacted us to rectify the missing information and to amend the advertisements. we are sending fresh contract and advertisement with names of both director and their contact numbers etc

So what you guys think of it? any further point which need addition? Can we give further documents or clarification at the time of hearing in court Room? you can share your refusal case and how you are going to defend them. Thanks

[ILR1980]

Another point here i have sent all supporting documents and bundle at very last moment as i don't want home office to withdraw appeal and i go back at point where i started. I hate this waiting period of getting stuck in the middle for years after years

[Princess of Ammi]

Good to see someone with this much passion and zeal well only anger invokes such an attitude but the fact is almost everything that you said is true.

you should consider yourself lucky if decision being withdrawn before the court because such an objection on third party funding normally get heard in court.

what is being seen(there have been few posts here) these days is the judges are more concerned to have third party, offering money to an applicant, getting the letter(it is a part of law approved by house of common so is mandatory to meet) from bank(the bank will not issue such a letter) or transfer the money into applicant account as to prove money that they said available actually available.
the objections before bank letter are under flexibility policy as you mentioned you could have provided more information on request if requested.

I see you like a sister would see her brother case, it is now on your lower to prepare further arguments besides those you have already mentioned above in your defense.

wish you best of luck with your appeal

[ILR1980]

Good to see someone with this much passion and zeal well only anger invokes such an attitude but the fact is almost everything that you said is true.

you should consider yourself lucky if decision being withdrawn before the court because such an objection on third party funding normally get heard in court.

what is being seen(there have been few posts here) these days is the judges are more concerned to have third party, offering money to an applicant, getting the letter(it is a part of law approved by house of common so is mandatory to meet) from bank(the bank will not issue such a letter) or transfer the money into applicant account as to prove money that they said available actually available.
the objections before bank letter are under flexibility policy as you mentioned you could have provided more information on request if requested.

I see you like a sister would see her brother case, it is now on your lower to prepare further arguments besides those you have already mentioned above in your defense.

wish you best of luck with your appeal

Thank you for reply and wishing me good luck. I already spent 10 years in this country so if i get this visa then my ten year will be complete in January 2014 but as they say hope sustain life so all we can do is effort and to do what we can and if still we lose then i will not have any regret

Its not lucky thing if home office go for withdrawing appeal. They withdraw appeal in those cases where they are certain that they are going to lose. what they do is hold the case for months after months and then refuse again for any other reasons. Its like teasing people to an extent that they get fed up and stop fighting for their case as there are people out there who never been to their home countries for years and wish to marry or see their ill parent etc This waiting time is very stressful for them

Third party bank letter is very tricky. If bank letter mention everything in letter that account holder is X guy but money is available to guy Y and Z then what will be the point of third party declaration letter and letter from lawyers? It don't make sense to me even if this passed by house of common. Now question is if third party bank is not issuing such letter and home office and judges are insisting on getting same format then only option left is to transfer money in ur business account from third party account which we did but hopefully this new letter will not count as new evidence

[rooney0511]

If they withdraw the appeal consider yourself lucky as you said your 10 years would complete in January 2014.

If they withdraw simply vary your application to ILR thereby saving time and money. ( Just my thoughts )

[Naheedsammar]

First of all i do appreciate the idea of sharing info n experience i assume it would b a big help for those who r going through appeal n hearing process. These rejections are based on missing info or missing docs but therecare lot if ither rejections based on info we give during interview. Like mine mostly based on my responses during interview n they concluded its not genuine. Any one who is been refused due to these reasons?plz share ur experience n outcome as it would help a lot.

Many thanks

[rooney0511]

First of all i do appreciate the idea of sharing info n experience i assume it would b a big help for those who r going through appeal n hearing process. These rejections are based on missing info or missing docs but therecare lot if ither rejections based on info we give during interview. Like mine mostly based on my responses during interview n they concluded its not genuine. Any one who is been refused due to these reasons?plz share ur experience n outcome as it would help a lot.

Many thanks

My friend was refused after interview and had a 14 page refusal letter had his appeal about 2 weeks ago and this Tuesday he was notified that his appeal was allowed.

I attended the hearing, honestly speaking, the way the appeal went I thought there isn't a chance that he will win it.
After reading the judgement, The Judge made some inter sting comments.

1. Who on the Home Office side is competent enough to Judge weather the Business is genuine/Successful , If so what are their professional Qualifications?

2.The Business may not be successful, So what (many are not) this cannot be the reason for refusal. It is to the applicant risk.

3. Other than their thought, Home Office was not able to substantiate the claim that the applicant is not a genuine Entrepreneur.

So looks like the new Refusals are also falling flat on the Home Office face.

[Princess of Ammi]

Rooney You Killed it...

I wish if everyone suffering could get a Judge like your friend had.

[ILR1980]

If they withdraw the appeal consider yourself lucky as you said your 10 years would complete in January 2014.

If they withdraw simply vary your application to ILR thereby saving time and money. ( Just my thoughts )

You are right . It may be best option in my scenario but not for my team member. Let see how it goes

[ILR1980]

First of all i do appreciate the idea of sharing info n experience i assume it would b a big help for those who r going through appeal n hearing process. These rejections are based on missing info or missing docs but therecare lot if ither rejections based on info we give during interview. Like mine mostly based on my responses during interview n they concluded its not genuine. Any one who is been refused due to these reasons?plz share ur experience n outcome as it would help a lot.

Many thanks

Can you also share your points of refusal and how you are going to defend them ? Its very easy to win appeal in those cases where UKBA assume or get day dream that entrepreneur is not genuine and have no intentions of investment. They cannot prove these things in court if you satisfy all others requirement and paper work needed to get this visa

[ILR1980]

My friend was refused after interview and had a 14 page refusal letter had his appeal about 2 weeks ago and this Tuesday he was notified that his appeal was allowed.

I attended the hearing, honestly speaking, the way the appeal went I thought there isn't a chance that he will win it.
After reading the judgement, The Judge made some inter sting comments.

1. Who on the Home Office side is competent enough to Judge weather the Business is genuine/Successful , If so what are their professional Qualifications?

2.The Business may not be successful, So what (many are not) this cannot be the reason for refusal. It is to the applicant risk.

3. Other than their thought, Home Office was not able to substantiate the claim that the applicant is not a genuine Entrepreneur.

So looks like the new Refusals are also falling flat on the Home Office face.

exactly that's how judge think and they don't believe in just hollow claims and perception of immigration officer but they need evidence to prove what they assume ..my reasons of refusals are not as simple as your friends had

[Princess of Ammi]

probabilities turn into reality when an applicant can not show if said business is not trading, the dormant bank activities relevant to business activities is everything a judge's determination is based up on provided its not relevant to third parties funding issues

an objection thought to be a minor expends itself in court because no business activity and a number of objections fall in Home office derogatory when business successfully trading(prime example above post pasted by one of us members about his friend), it is something to do with case preparation and making arguments as well so that a normal person like judge could understand.

no one should take any objection(minor or major) lighter as every objection they make is protected by the immigration rules.
a number of objections on contract like land line number missing, advertisements issue etc. are not effective if an applicant meets the immigration rules logically as what he claims at the time application that he provides services to a client provided proof is the contract where services not mentioned in details land/or line missing,refusal is based upon gets set aside because he would have provided services to the client by the time case gets heard, so an objection on an applicant caliber being not genuine loses legs.

thanks,

[ILR1980]

probabilities turn into reality when an applicant can not show if said business is not trading, the dormant bank activities relevant to business activities is everything a judge's determination is based up on provided its not relevant to third parties funding issues

an objection thought to be a minor expends itself in court because no business activity and a number of objections fall in Home office derogatory when business successfully trading(prime example above post pasted by one of us members about his friend), it is something to do with case preparation and making arguments as well so that a normal person like judge could understand.

no one should take any objection(minor or major) lighter as every objection they make is protected by the immigration rules.
a number of objections on contract like land line number missing, advertisements issue etc. are not effective if an applicant meets the immigration rules logically as what he claims at the time application that he provides services to a client provided proof is the contract where services not mentioned in details land/or line missing,refusal is based upon gets set aside because he would have provided services to the client by the time case gets heard, so an objection on an applicant caliber being not genuine loses legs.

thanks,

I agree with you that people should not taken any objection lightly and should have defend it logically by staying within the rules. I don't think applicants need to show that business is trading good . They have to show that they have 50000 pounds to invest in their business which they just established that's why you need at least one business contract even if you have not given services yet. If i accuse you of something then i would need to provide evidence of my accusations not opponents . If home office claim that entrepreneur is not genuine then its them who need to provide evidences to support their claim. What matter for court is proof and evidences. Judge will not consider me cheater because immigration officer say so. Judges are very much neutral and objective in this country. If you ask about my case i am still feeling like its fifty fifty chance. Its depend what argument home office will bring and whether judge will convince more with our arguments or representative of UkBA

By the way you have not shared any detail about your case

[Naheedsammar]

Other point of refusals r i think standard whoever been refused as being not genune.

Ho no satisfied that money wouls b invested
Do not satisfy that money is available to invest n could not determin the source of funds as its been transfered into joint account in v short time. While my personel stmnt is showing money is been tranfered from p acct.
Ho is not satisfied that we intend to take any employmnt.

[ILR1980]

Other point of refusals r i think standard whoever been refused as being not genune.

Ho no satisfied that money wouls b invested
Do not satisfy that money is available to invest n could not determin the source of funds as its been transfered into joint account in v short time. While my personel stmnt is showing money is been tranfered from p acct.
Ho is not satisfied that we intend to take any employmnt.

I think your case is very simple compare to mine. Home office can think whatever they want but they would need supporting evidence to back up their arguments in court.

My question will be

why they are not satisfied that money will be invested and how they are going to be satisfied ?

Source of funds is irrelevant and has nothing to with rules. where its mention in rule that you should have mention source of funding ..it could be your persona money or money from third party . How did you earn that money is out of question.. where its mention in rule that money cannot be transferred in short time and last point home office cannot predict about future so its again just assumption

[Princess of Ammi]

well I applied and faced refusal that stated you meet the all criteria before the contract some contents he found missing that was not a part of policy, service fee and so on.

I had provided services to another 10 clients besides the 1st contract, I prepared the bundle and handed in person to their local office on Monday morning(5 days before hearing) I had a fax coming in same day afternoon that H-office withdraw the original decision.

thanks,

[ILR1980]

well I applied and faced refusal that stated you meet the all criteria before the contract some contents he found missing that was not a part of policy, service fee and so on.

I had provided services to another 10 clients besides the 1st contract, I prepared the bundle and handed in person to their local office on Monday morning(5 days before hearing) I had a fax coming it same day afternoon that H-office withdraw the original decision.

thanks,

Did you sent invoices?

also did home office contacted you about missing information?

I sent bundles just 4 days before hearing date. Your case was strong and they knew they will lose in court so they went for withdrew to save their time and money. Hopefully they don't test your patience and give you visa like gentleman . Good luck

[Princess of Ammi]

when one says services have been provided he should mean it by providing invoice(s)along other relevant documents in my case yes I did at the time of bundle, whereas application submission I did not because services were being provided so invoice was not needed to back up the purpose but money(partly) in bank from client.

there was not anything missing that they should have back contacted, but it still could have been argued whilst hearing if they let it go forward for hearing as if I was required to provide further information(whether irrelevant) I was just a call away. yes it is what it is called flexibility policy.

I am on GDL (Graduate Diploma in Law) doing it as a part timer and as part of studies I see things through a lawyer's eye which I think people do not like, being criticized out of court let you reform in court it is too late to prepare.

a sister's word hope it goes well for you

[ILR1980]

when one says services have been provided he should mean it by providing invoice(s)along other relevant documents in my case yes I did at the time of bundle, whereas application submission I did not because services were being provided so invoice was not needed to back up the purpose but money(partly) in bank from client.

there was not anything missing that they should have back contacted, but it still could have been argued whilst hearing if they let it go forward for hearing as if I was required to provide further information(whether irrelevant) I was just a call away. yes it is what it is called flexibility policy.

I am on GDL (Graduate Diploma in Law) doing it as a part timer and as part of studies I see things through a lawyer's eye which I think people do not like, being criticized out of court let you reform in court it is too late to prepare.

a sister's word hope it goes well for you

Thank you. Nice to know that you are doing diploma in law

What you reckon i should have mention about my 9/10 year stay in this country or its irrelevant to this case

[Princess of Ammi]

check with your lawyer as it lets you apply a month earlier if applying under 10 years provision, if you are within last month before you complete your 10 years you should be advised by your lawyer to include additional ground having this factor involved as to why your appeal should be allowed.



If I were you I would have a lawyer dealing with my case and representation regardless of how good I can represent myself by myself,

thanks,

[ILR1980]

check with your lawyer as it lets you apply a month earlier if applying under 10 years provision, if you are within last month before you complete your 10 years you should be advised by your lawyer to include additional ground having this factor involved as to why your appeal should be allowed.



If I were you I would have a lawyer dealing with my case and representation regardless of how good I can represent myself by myself,

thanks,

well different lawyers was giving me different view about whether i should include article 8 of human right in this appeal. Some suggested i should concentrate on this appeal and if outcome is negative then go for artcile 8 human rights

can you tell me how much years of stay is necessary in this country for application based on article 8 of human rights ?

[ILR1980]

I went to attend hearing and i was very disappointed because our barrister and home office representative argued just on previous documents we submitted so it was useless for me to transfer all money from Pakistan to uk account because bank was not giving us letter in format home office needed .They did not even bothered to look at new bank letter as they counted him new evidence. I thought it will be continuity of previous letter because we all know main point is transferring money of third party which entrepreneur will do at one stage or others. It seem they don't care about genuine entrepreneur but just insist on something which is impossible. I think only dummy bank or bakers will provide you such letter where they will mention the availability of funds to non account holder whom they don't even know

Rest they were giving argument over evidential flexibility and our barrister argued that we didnt needed our names on bank letter at the time of application made in July 2012 and he also requested judge to consider article 8 particularly in my case where i am completing my ten year in jan 2014. Home office representative argued that i cannot claim this while making and waiting for outcome of any other application and he gave reference of some other application made by someone else. it seem he was also well prepared and he asked judge to give him some time. we appellant were not given any chance to speak up and judge just listened and did not ask anything from our barrister or home office representative. You could not guess anything from his face expression and he just asked us to wait for his decision which might come in post within several weeks

[Funjabi_Munda]

Your Defence for Point 2 about contracts is very strong ... The Home Office had accepted this logic in my complaint

[ILR1980]

Your Defence for Point 2 about contracts is very strong ... The Home Office had accepted this logic in my complaint

Yea but actual point of argument in court revolved around bank letter..so what was your refusal points and what decision you got?

[ILR1980]

I got a decision of hearing and judge allowed the appeal and asked home office to make a fresh decision because previous decision was not according to law. my leave still continue under 3C. i will complete my 10 years in January then can i vary my application and apply for ten year residence