ESC

Click the "allow" button if you want to receive important news and updates from immigrationboards.com


Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Welcome to immigrationboards.com!

Login Register Do not show

An open letter -- BN(O)s should be granted full citizenship

General UK immigration & work permits; don't post job search or family related topics!

Please use this section of the board if there is no specific section for your query.

Moderators: Casa, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, CR001, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, meself2, geriatrix, Administrator

Locked
BN(O)
Newly Registered
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:11 am

An open letter -- BN(O)s should be granted full citizenship

Post by BN(O) » Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:28 am

To whom it may concern

BN(O)s deserve better

Recently the EU has granted visa-free access for British National (Overseas) passport holders, who obtained the status during British rule in Hong Kong. As a BN(O) passport holder, I certainly welcome the move. However, regrettably, this status does afford the holder right of abode in the UK or European citizenship. I believe that Her Majesty’s subjects in Hong Kong deserve something better than that.

Hong Kong is one of the few former British colonies that is a developed country. The GDP (PPP) per capita of HK ranked 8th in 2005, while the UK only ranked 18th. According to the ‘quality-of-life’ survey of The Economist in 2005, Hong Kong ranked 18th while the UK only ranked 29th. The Human Development Index of Hong Kong (.927) is also comparable than that of the UK (.940), both within the top thirties. We have already performed as well as the UK socio-economically, so I do not understand why Her Majesty’s subjects in Hong Kong need to put up with an inferior British passport. Before the handover of Hong Kong, a significant number of residents obtained overseas citizenships (including the UK) but most of these dual nationals returned to Hong Kong later. Even the UK grants full citizenship to all her nationals in Hong Kong, I don’t think a sudden wave of migration is probable. BN(O)s are educated, skilled, civilised and fluent in English so they will make meaningful contributions to the UK and the EU and be economically active if they are allowed to live and work there.

In fact, we cannot forget what Britain has done in Hong Kong. British values like rule of law, democracy and liberty have been always upheld here. We missed Britain. If Hong Kong was not under British colonial rule, it could not become such an amazing international financial centre. By granting citizenship to BN(O)s, we have more opportunities to study and work in the UK. After graduation, we will bring British values back to Hong Kong and China, fostering China’s modernisation. We can also bring UK capital and expertise to the soaring market. Some people worried that granting citizenships to BN(O)s will would adversely affect the Sino-UK relationship, but I think this act will bring the two countries closer instead. We HK Chinese-Britons can serve as a middleperson that understands both languages and cultures well.

The British Government has already offered most British passport holders full citizenship so I think that BN(O)s should also be treated equally.

I sincerely hope that the British Government can favourably consider my proposal.

imperan
Newly Registered
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:12 am

Post by imperan » Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:49 am

I support your call... all these people were born under the Union Jack so why shouldn't they be entitled to live under the Union Jack.. Good luck with your proposal.

tensailee
Junior Member
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:50 pm
Location: London

Post by tensailee » Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:57 pm

You have my support

JAJ
Moderator
Posts: 3977
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:29 pm
Australia

Re: An open letter -- BN(O)s should be granted full citizens

Post by JAJ » Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:25 am

BN(O) wrote: The British Government has already offered most British passport holders full citizenship so I think that BN(O)s should also be treated equally.
Only most of those without any other citizenship. There are quite a few British Overseas citizens in Malaysia (over 1 million) who are also Malaysian citizens - they have not been offered British citizenship either (unless they got it by living in the UK itself).

There is also a group of 100,000 British subjects in the Republic of Ireland (plus another 800,000 eligible) who don't have access to British citizenship unless they move to the UK. They also have Irish citizenship.

There is absolutely no chance that the United Kingdom will automatically confer British citizenship on a large group of Chinese (or Malaysian or Irish) citizens. If for no other reason, the Chinese and Malaysian governments would not be pleased to see an en masse grant of British citizenship to people in those countries.

All that said, I would be quite open to the idea that anyone holding a British passport should be allowed to enter the United Kingdom for employment, and seek British citizenship by registration after the normal time period.

In the meantime, there is always the option of coming to the UK on a working holiday visa (BNO passport is eligible), work permit or HSMP.

Alternatively, most well educated people from Hong Kong would be better advised to look towards Australia if they want to emigrate (and become Australian citizens in due course).

imperan
Newly Registered
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:12 am

Post by imperan » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:07 am

I think we are not talking about the numbers here but the moral obligation for the UK. HK citizens were BDTC before 1997 and the status had been changed to BNO. And soon after the handover of HK to China. All former BDTC (I believe it is called Bristish Overseas Territories Citizens or something like that) were conveniently entiled to apply for full British Citizenship, should they wish to do so in 2002. It is very obvious to me and many others that the UK government had always wanted to deny the citizens of HK a full UK citizenship. For me this is morally incorrect. Considering how much wealth the former crown colony had generated for this country. e.g. would there be a British Bank in the top ten ranking of the world if HSBC hadn't exist? That is why I support this call.

JAJ
Moderator
Posts: 3977
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:29 pm
Australia

Post by JAJ » Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:06 am

imperan wrote:I think we are not talking about the numbers here but the moral obligation for the UK. HK citizens were BDTC before 1997 and the status had been changed to BNO. And soon after the handover of HK to China. All former BDTC (I believe it is called Bristish Overseas Territories Citizens or something like that) were conveniently entiled to apply for full British Citizenship, should they wish to do so in 2002. It is very obvious to me and many others that the UK government had always wanted to deny the citizens of HK a full UK citizenship.
What you say is true except that BDTCs/BOTCs in 2002 automatically became British citizens, no need for a specific application unless BOTC acquired after 21 May 2002.

However there is a counter-argument which is that in every other British colony that became independent, people lost their UK citizenship on becoming citizens of the "new" country unless they had specific ties to the United Kingdom itself or a place which remained a colony.

So along those lines, people from Hong Kong becoming Chinese citizens has followed normal practise. Incidentally Hong Kong was not the only colony to transfer sovereignty - the Cocos (Keeling) Islands and Christmas Island were transferred from Britain to Australia in 1955 and 1958 respectively. Arrangements were made for the inhabitants to switch from being UK to Australian citizens.

The British Government has made it clear - in the context of the independence debate in Bermuda - that one of the consequences of independence would likely be revocation of British citizenship. See section 6 of this document:
http://www.theroyalgazette.com/apps/pbc ... /105260060

The nationality consequences of independence would be dealt with in the independence Act of the UK Parliament and would therefore be looked at very carefully. In the past, the usual practice was to withdraw British nationality from the majority of those acquiring citizenship of the new state on independence but to provide for its retention where the person concerned had a residual connection - for example through a parent or grandparent - with the UK or a place that continued to be what nowadays would be referred to as a British overseas territory. We would not expect to take a different approach in Bermuda's case.

BN(O)
Newly Registered
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:11 am

Post by BN(O) » Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:45 am

Bermuda's case showing us that how fragile a British citizenship is. There are some people in Hong Kong who were granted British citizenship before the handover, can their citizenship be revoked by the same/similar reasons? There is no guarantee that they will be British citizens tomorrow even they are BCs today. (Remember in the 1960s some CUKCs lost the right of abode in a similar way) The new Bermuda passport may be much worse than their BCs or BOTCs. It seems that people there are forced to leave Bermuda and go to the UK in order to secure their British citizenship. For Bermuda, I don't think the UK should revoke the inhabitants' BC passports and the acquistion of the new citizenship should be voluntary.

JAJ
Moderator
Posts: 3977
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:29 pm
Australia

Post by JAJ » Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:19 pm

BN(O) wrote:Bermuda's case showing us that how fragile a British citizenship is.
No more "fragile" than the citizenship of any other country is in an independence scenario.
There are some people in Hong Kong who were granted British citizenship before the handover, can their citizenship be revoked by the same/similar reasons?
Short answer - no. Longer answer - clearly Parliament could pass whatever legislation it likes but there is no chance of that.

The new Bermuda passport may be much worse than their BCs or BOTCs. It seems that people there are forced to leave Bermuda and go to the UK in order to secure their British citizenship. For Bermuda, I don't think the UK should revoke the inhabitants' BC passports and the acquistion of the new citizenship should be voluntary.
In that case the people of Bermuda shouldn't become independent if they want to keep British Citizen passports. It's really quite a simple choice.

In an independence scenario, the British citizenship of those becoming Bermuda citizens on Independence Day would be revoked unless that person was born or naturalised, or had a parent/grandparent so born or naturalised, in the United Kingdom, Channel Islands, Isle of Man, or another British Overseas Territory.

This would mean that in general, the only people in Bermuda who would retain British citizenship are those who had it before 21 May 2002 (plus a few others who had BOTC status but not "Bermudian belonger status").

It's not clear what special provisions (if any) would be made for Bermudians who were residing in the UK at the time of independence or who had lived in the UK for a specific time period (eg 5 years) before moving elsewhere.

Marco 72
Diamond Member
Posts: 1102
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:53 pm
Location: London

Re: An open letter -- BN(O)s should be granted full citizens

Post by Marco 72 » Sat Feb 17, 2007 7:52 pm

BN(O) wrote:In fact, we cannot forget what Britain has done in Hong Kong. British values like rule of law, democracy and liberty have been always upheld here.
You are right about liberty and the rule of law, but Hong Kong has never been a democracy. Not that this matters when it comes to citizenship, anyway.
BN(O) wrote:The new Bermuda passport may be much worse than their BCs or BOTCs. It seems that people there are forced to leave Bermuda and go to the UK in order to secure their British citizenship. For Bermuda, I don't think the UK should revoke the inhabitants' BC passports and the acquistion of the new citizenship should be voluntary.
A Bermudian passport (i.e. that of a BOTC with Bermudian Belonger Status) is already much better than any EU passport as far as travelling to the US is concerned. Unlike Europeans, Bermudians can travel visa free to the US and can even attend school there without a visa. See here and here. In this respect, they are treated the same as Canadian citizens. There is no reason to think that this would change, should Bermuda become independent. After all, Bermuda has one of the highest GDP per capita in the world, much higher than that of the US. Bermudians would most likely lose the automatic right to live and work in the EU, but I don't see why this is unfair. Bermuda has one of the toughest immigration systems in the world, even with regards to EU citizens. It's very hard (even for British citizens) to move there, and it's almost impossible to become a Bermudian.

JAJ
Moderator
Posts: 3977
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:29 pm
Australia

Re: An open letter -- BN(O)s should be granted full citizens

Post by JAJ » Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:06 pm

Marco 72 wrote: A Bermudian passport (i.e. that of a BOTC with Bermudian Belonger Status) is already much better than any EU passport as far as travelling to the US is concerned.
It's possible to be a BOTC connected with Bermuda and yet not have Bermudian belonger status. For example, a person born in Bermuda to foreign parents prior to 1983.
Unlike Europeans, Bermudians can travel visa free to the US and can even attend school there without a visa.
This isn't quite as generous as it sounds, as it is still necessary to qualify for F status (nonimmigrant student status) under the normal US rules. The only difference is that a Canadian/Bermudian is not required to get a visa stamp in advance.

This concession applies to most US non-immigrant visas, such as H or L classification. There are a few exceptions like K visas (fiancees) where Canadians and Bermudians do need the visa stamp.

In this respect, they are treated the same as Canadian citizens.
In principle yes, with the important exception that Bermudians do not qualify for the NAFTA provisions (TN status).

There is no reason to think that this would change, should Bermuda become independent. After all, Bermuda has one of the highest GDP per capita in the world, much higher than that of the US.
All that would depend on the policies pursued by an independent Bermuda government. It is difficult to see what additional powers and resources to improve itself would accrue to Bermuda from independence. While the loss of the constitutional link to Britain could only have a negative consequence for Bermuda's financial services industry. And someone would have to pay for all those Bermuda embassies ...

So all the risk of independence for Bermuda is on the downside. This would in time reflect itself in the value of the Bermuda passport. And of course, once independence is obtained, there is no way back to becoming a British territory if things don't work out.

BN(O)
Newly Registered
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:11 am

Re: An open letter -- BN(O)s should be granted full citizens

Post by BN(O) » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:19 am

JAJ wrote:In the meantime, there is always the option of coming to the UK on a working holiday visa (BNO passport is eligible), work permit or HSMP.

Alternatively, most well educated people from Hong Kong would be better advised to look towards Australia if they want to emigrate (and become Australian citizens in due course).
If BN(O)s are only eligible for the normal HSMP or Work Permit, what's the point of issuing BN(O)s to Hong Kong people? I demand that some bonus points in HSMP should be awarded to British passport holders in order to show that UK is a responsible state, if what have I asked for is really too much. Freedom to work in the UK/EU would be much more reasonable. People in Macau are much more fortunate as most of them have EU passports, even the GDP is much weaker! It is ridiculous for a state to issue a passport that the holder is not returnable to the issuing country. Taiwan had this practice before (many ROC passport holders were not allowed to enter Taiwan) but it has abolished this later, how about the UK as one of the best countries about the globe? Enough is enough.

JAJ
Moderator
Posts: 3977
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:29 pm
Australia

Re: An open letter -- BN(O)s should be granted full citizens

Post by JAJ » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:17 pm

BN(O) wrote: If BN(O)s are only eligible for the normal HSMP or Work Permit, what's the point of issuing BN(O)s to Hong Kong people?
The "point" was to allow former Hong Kong BDTCs to continue travelling on a "British" Hong Kong passport instead of (or in addition to) a "Chinese" Hong Kong passport.

It was optional to apply for BN(O) but as far as I am aware, the majority of HK BDTCs did so at the time.

Bear in mind that BN(O)s have the same rights as other Commonwealth citizens once settled in the UK, in terms of voting or working for the public services. BN(O)s also have the right to come to the UK as working holiday visa holders.

There is also a right to enter the United Kingdom as a tourist, which cannot be so easily taken away compared to visa-free access for foreign passport holders.

I demand that some bonus points in HSMP should be awarded to British passport holders in order to show that UK is a responsible state, if what have I asked for is really too much.
Britain is a proud nation and it's really not a good idea to "demand" something as it may become less likely you would receive it.

For what it's worth, I would have no difficulty supporting an automatic HSMP visa to any BN(O) - or other British passport holder - of working age who wishes to work in the United Kingdom.

Taiwan had this practice before (many ROC passport holders were not allowed to enter Taiwan) but it has abolished this later,
Have you a reference for this? The Wikipedia article states that a Taiwan passport does not carry a right of abode in the ROC:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_passport

Eric
Newly Registered
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2002 2:01 am
Location: Hong Kong

Post by Eric » Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:49 pm

Totally and absolutely supporting BN(O). JAJ maybe you have misunderstood the nationality status of BN(O) passport holder. Firstly, Hong Kongers, especially BDTC passport holder, did not have any choice keeping their BDTC status. They were forced to change their nationality status to BN(O) before 1997. British Government was step-by-step expelling Hong Kongers' ROA, citizenship, nationality, etc. Secondly, in the morla issue, the British Government should take her responsibility for offering ROA to the people were living under crown. Finally, it is a historical issue. Under Treaty of Nanking and Treaty of Peking, Hong Kong Island and Kowloon Pannesula were governing under crown, but the New Territories rented to the UK for 99 years until 1997. Everybody know that the Brithish Government gave up her colony and handover to PRC Government. Hong Kongers were situating in a passive position, without any choice.

Suggesting we group together to complain to EU Council about the British Governent is violating the human right.[/code]

avjones
Diamond Member
Posts: 1568
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: London
United Kingdom

Post by avjones » Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:33 pm

"Suggesting we group together to complain to EU Council about the British Governent is violating the human right."

What human right is violated? There is no human right to a passport. COmplaining to the EU is irrelevant, nationality and immigration are not matters for the EU, and the EU is entirely different from the ECHR anyway.
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

Eric
Newly Registered
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2002 2:01 am
Location: Hong Kong

Post by Eric » Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:21 am

Right of abode is a given and the responsibility of a country to her national and a basic human right. What do you think if you were lost your ROA? Nowadays BN(O) holders' ROA were expelled under due and no choice. Please recall British National Act in 70's, 80's and 90's that the British Government intended to escaped from her responsible and get rid of BN(O) holders from the country. Please advise the organisation or institute BN(O) holders can make the complaint.

avjones
Diamond Member
Posts: 1568
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: London
United Kingdom

Post by avjones » Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:38 pm

Hong Kong isn't part of the UK any more, though. ISTM that there isn' tmuch of a legal issue here, only a political one.
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

Locked