Spouse of EEA citizen - Spanish Visa Validity Period

[chaoclive]

Hi

I'm Irish (for the purposes of this application) and my partner is Chinese. This morning, we went to the Spanish Embassy in Beijing to get him a visa for our holiday in January. We were informed before coming that it would be fine to get a tourist visa for free.

The head of the Embassy Visa Section said that the visa wouldn't be free and we would need to apply at the visa application centre and wait. I got angry and huffed and puffed for a while and he finally agreed. He said this time it was fine, but for the future, he said that I would need to provide a legalized copy of our civil partnership certificate (which was issued at the British Embassy in Vietnam). I asked him how he would like us to do this: he said that I'd have to take it to the British Embassy in Vietnam (where it was issued) to get a certification and then take that certification to the Spanish Embassy in Vietnam to have it legalized. This sounds totally RIDICULOUS! The Embassy of the Netherlands had a quick look at the civil partnership certificate last time and said that everything was ok (within 2 minutes).

Then the Spanish guy at the window (who was nice) asked for the dates that we would stay in Spain. He took my partner's passport, a copy of my passport and a copy of our UK civil partnership certificate and told me that he would call me when the visa was ready.

It only took 20 minutes! However, the dates on the visa were the exact dates that we told him (minus 1 day at the start and an extra day at the end).

Now, the question/issue is this: when I want to go to stay in Spain for longer than a holiday (i.e. if I plan to do Surinder Singh via Spain), can my partner just enter under a normal 'individual tourist visa' as the head of the visa section called it? If this visa expires (as his current one will do 2 weeks after entry), can he still stay in Spain as long as I am there? He won't get in any trouble (as the civil partner of an EEA citizen) as long as I'm there, right?

Thanks so much!
CC

[dalebutt]

Did you mean it took 20 mins for the visa to be issued? Yes that's correct, as long as you are in Spain, for the first 3 months you need not do anything if you don't want to, I guess you are familiar with the rules, Spanish authorities are less keen even on illegal immigrants, how much more him?

I do not think he will ever get into any trouble whatsoever, there might be some bureaucratic, red tape etc etc, as long as you have this in mind there would be no major surprises. Enjoy your holiday.

[chaoclive]

Thanks again Dalebutt. Good news about him not getting into trouble! He should know that my partner will not be illegal and that we can still enter with a visa from another EU country anyway...hehe.

Yes, the visa was issued within 20 minutes. However, I spent about 15 minutes arguing with the head of the visa section before he agreed to let his staff members issue it...

Thanks again

[dalebutt]

20 mins! You are brimming with luck Chao, I could do with some of those! Well miracles still happens after all? Do not take for granted the ignorant of the Spanish, it's refreshing to learn that you got this in 20 mins, apparently, there is hope for the future. I will now hold my breath because good things will now begin to happen in the EU.

P.S The red tape I was talking about is if you decide to apply for residence, although, so long you have all documentation, it should be very straightforward.

[chaoclive]

Cool. Thanks. Still not sure about the whole residence thing (although it is still an option!)

The junior staff member knew about the visa and said that they would be able to give it to us, but his boss didn't really understand and asked for a legalized copy of the civil partnership certificate. When I asked for his refusal, including the reasons, in writing, he caved in and said that we can have it 'this time'. I will be asking for another visa for Spain in the summer time...I guess I will have to contact them again before that to ask about the 'legalization' again.

[liksah]

Congrats on getting the visa so quickly! In my opinion it's always better if you can get the marriage certificate/partnership document Apostilled.

Since Britain is a signatory to the apostille convention, a British document (I understand your civil partnership document is British ?) could technically be apostilled. When the document has that then it gains international recognition in at least the countries that signed the convention. Full list is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostille_Convention

It might be worth it to look into how to apostille the document. Once an apostille gets stamped on it it'll certainly have wider international acceptance, definitely good for international couples.

Still, for most residence permits my research through these forums show that Spanish authorities are almost certainly going to ask you for your marriage/partnership to be registered in your home country. Apparently Portugal does the same. However, Germany will issue a residence card based on a foreign marriage certificate as long as it is legalized/apostilled.

So if you do decide to settle in Spain after you go there with your partner, it's still legal as long as you start your residence card formalities. Expect it to take a few months at the very least (Germany takes 2-3 weeks, Spain can take apparently up to 6 months.., Portugal also takes 3-4 months.. all this info is anecdotal based on forum posts here and on expatforums). They also might ask you for an Irish marriage registration and you'll have to jump through some hoops, they may not ask you for anything (sometimes you can get lucky! you certainly have been for the visa as far as the processing time is concerned!).

[chaoclive]

Hi there Liksah

Thanks a lot for the reply! I will consider apostilling the CP certificate but it is a bit of a hassle and I'm not even sure how to do it. I'm worried that I'd have to go back to Vietnam (as the guy in the Embassy this morning said) and visit the UK Embassy as well as the Spanish one...that will take a while AND cost a fortune!

RE: registration in my home country: the CP certificate has already been deposited in the General Records Office in the UK (I'm a dual national at present) and when I contact the GRO about this before they said that there wasn't any need to do anything else. I'm not sure how else it could be registered in the UK if it's already with GRO.

I guess it will be a more complex issue if I (as I am considering), give up my UK citizenship. I then will probably need to show that my UK civil partnership is registered in Ireland. I'll look into this soon!

Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain this to me

All the best from Beijing
CC

[dalebutt]

The UK government doesn't bother with the apostille, at least for marriage certificates, I don't know about the civil partnership certificates I suppose it will apply, the countries still demanding this pointless process are still very much in the olden ages, it's like a catch-22, and doesn't even serve any purpose, I have always tried as much to avoid applying for visa from countries who demand that a document be legalised. Good luck and enjoy your holiday Chao.

[liksah]

Hi there Liksah

Thanks a lot for the reply! I will consider apostilling the CP certificate but it is a bit of a hassle and I'm not even sure how to do it. I'm worried that I'd have to go back to Vietnam (as the guy in the Embassy this morning said) and visit the UK Embassy as well as the Spanish one...that will take a while AND cost a fortune!

RE: registration in my home country: the CP certificate has already been deposited in the General Records Office in the UK (I'm a dual national at present) and when I contact the GRO about this before they said that there wasn't any need to do anything else. I'm not sure how else it could be registered in the UK if it's already with GRO.

I guess it will be a more complex issue if I (as I am considering), give up my UK citizenship. I then will probably need to show that my UK civil partnership is registered in Ireland. I'll look into this soon!

Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain this to me

All the best from Beijing
CC

Hola from New Delhi!

It's true that the apostille process can be difficult if you're in a different country. I got married in the US and got my marriage certificate apostilled shortly after receiving it because I knew it would be tough from far away (I'm not from the US, neither is my wife) and the stamp is useful for international recognition. I knew this because I had to get my college degree apostilled earlier in life.

But of course, it was easier because we were right there. Paid for it, and had it done in a few days.

Every country has different methods of legalizing and then apostilling documents. In India it's complex because you have to get a bunch of legalizations from various ministries and only then do they finally place an apostille stamp on it. But once that stamp is on your document you can pretty much use it in any of the countries that signed the convention. For example, my marriage is not registered in Portugal but since the US certificate is legalized and apostilled, I have been able to use it to get visas to Portugal before.

Also, the apostille process is independent of the Spanish consulate in Vietnam. At most you would have to get the document legalized/notarized by the British embassy in Vietnam and then ... follow up with the apostille procedure somewhere in the UK (or this may happen in Vietnam if the embassy has the authority to apostille it's documents - not sure about this..). If the document is already notarized then you can do the apostille procedure right away.

Unfortunately, you'd have to go to Vietnam or get an agent to do all this for you. I can see how that can be seriously problematic!

Is it possible to get a record extract or a partnership certificate from Ireland ? If yes, then maybe you can use that since it *should* be accepted everywhere in Europe (a translation may be required but that's the extent of it..).


@dalebutt - You're right, the process is pointless for most countries that don't have issues with forged documents. But, for example, documents from India are often forged (they're usually simple pieces of paper with no watermark protection, etc.). So getting an apostille on it (it's a holographic thing, hard to counterfeit..) helps greatly with international acceptance.

[dalebutt]

I agree liksah, but these embassies ,for example the French embassy in Nigeria says legalising a document does not mean the document is genuine, so why bother with it? The German embassy in Nigeria stopped it altogether, perhaps they can't seem to see the point of it

[liksah]

I agree liksah, but these embassies ,for example the French embassy in Nigeria says legalising a document does not mean the document is genuine, so why bother with it? The German embassy in Nigeria stopped it altogether, perhaps they can't seem to see the point of it

I wasn't aware of that! That sounds ... wrong. How can a legalized document not be genuine ? Ultimately if that were the case then how could we ever prove that a document is genuine ?

Also, are you referring to a Nigerian document ? Nigeria isn't a signatory to the apostille convention so I can imagine it won't be issuing apostille stamps for documents.

Unfortunately in the absence of an apostille a foreign document needs to be legalized in an even more convoluted way. Say, Nigerian marriage certificate would need to be legalized in several Nigerian ministries and then the Spanish consulate in Nigeria to then be accepted in Spain. For USA it would need to be authenticated by the US embassy in Nigeria, for each country you'd have to get a new stamp from the relevant consulate to make sure it's accepted there. That's what the apostille bypasses. Consulates still do stick to the 'stamping' system though. It's even more archaic than the apostille.

I can understand why several countries have decided to do away with apostille's though. If a document can be forged so can the apostille. But then, what's the solution for 'international people' ?

[chaoclive]

In the future I might just forget about those countries that ask for apostilles/legalizations. It would be good to know which those are. From my experience with the Embassy of the Netherlands here in Beijing, the Dutch may not be interested in apostilles (they made a decision on our civil partnership certificate in about 2 minutes after comparing the names to those on our passports). If anyone has any other examples it would be great to know.

At least the Spanish visa worked out this time and I've learned a lot from the process...at least about apostilles (which my auto-correct changes to: 'apostles' haha).

I've asked the General Records Office in the UK how the certificate or extract that they can provide would be different from the "Certified Copy of Entry" that I have from the Embassy in Vietnam. I'm sure the Spanish Embassy were interested in the fact that this partnership was conducted in Vietnam. That might be the issue. Therefore, if the actual location of the ceremony wasn't on the certificate, I'm guessing the issue wouldn't be that big.