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Moving to EEA country with non EEA wife to use treaty rights

Use this section for any queries concerning the EU Settlement Scheme, for applicants holding pre-settled and settled status.

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rosebead
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Re: Moving to EEA country with non EEA wife to use treaty ri

Post by rosebead » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:22 pm

It sounds like the UKBA now requires more "substantial" proof that your residence has been "genuine and effective", a term that I've seen used on Denmark's site: https://www.nyidanmark.dk/en-us/coming_ ... er_eu-law/

If the UK is copying Denmark, then unfortunately it might be that the only tenancy setup that they would accept now is one where you are renting a self-contained accommodation and paying all the bills in your name. It would probably also have to be an "indeterminate" tenancy as opposed to a fixed contract of say a few months, and you probably have to show a formal tenancy agreement to prove it. So by the looks of it, it would be inadequate to sublet a room, or stay at a friend/family member's house in the EU, or get a short term rental contract, or enter into an "informal" arrangement without an offical tenancy contract.

To pass the UK's new "centre of life" requirement it also sounds like a period of work for 3 months is no longer adequate. I'd still appeal and take it to first-tier tribunal if necessary, as it's not set in stone yet in EU law that the UK can have such stipulations for family reunification under SS.
Last edited by rosebead on Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

euroguys
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Re: Moving to EEA country with non EEA wife to use treaty ri

Post by euroguys » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:59 pm

The particular manner of ones residence is I believe a red herring the key part of the legislation depends on the status of worker and that in the eyes of the host country It doesnt cost ukba anything much to refuse especialy if your not in the UK puts the work back to you on appeal which is were this needs sorting out.

Every system that attempts to but up a block will find that obstacle overcome by the effort of people
2011 Sep EEA1- Portugal
2011 Nov Wife arrived
2012 Jan EEA2 Issued to Wife
2013 Apr 1a issued on arrival at port spain
2013 Nov 1a issued after day trip france
2013 Dec EEA2 applied for
2014 Jan CoA with work 3 weeks
2014 Jan Passports returned

sebstewart
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Re: Moving to EEA country with non EEA wife to use treaty ri

Post by sebstewart » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:39 pm

I realy would like to appeal but i know appealing can take a long time and it really would depend on wether i can re apply for the visa whilst an appeal is beeing proccesed?

thanks
seb

dalebutt
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Re: Moving to EEA country with non EEA wife to use treaty ri

Post by dalebutt » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:48 pm

Yea stewart you can apply whilst your appeal is ongoing, in fact you can apply as many times as you want until your appeal is heard if you haven't received the desired result.

sebstewart
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Re: Moving to EEA country with non EEA wife to use treaty ri

Post by sebstewart » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:00 am

dalebutt wrote:Yea stewart you can apply whilst your appeal is ongoing, in fact you can apply as many times as you want until your appeal is heard if you haven't received the desired result.
Thanks for the reply that’s good to know!
I sent a copy of the refusal to solve it.
Now does anyone have any tips or links to useful information on appealing these decisions?
I gess I have to resolve the issues thay have with my:
• Work
• Accommodation
• Bank
As they seem to have worked out from the above 3 where the centre of my life is.
thanks
seb

dalebutt
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Re: Moving to EEA country with non EEA wife to use treaty ri

Post by dalebutt » Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:02 am

In my opinion, I think the most crucial point of argument is, are you a worker? If you are, I do not think UKBA can set any hurdle for you and your family member returning, you should be able to prove that your work is not that of marginal or ancillary in nature, if you met the criteria of a worker I think it will be hard for them to deny you of that right, but as you know appeal does take time, you should continue exercising your right if you are in a position to do so, so as to acquire more rights and evidence, you should also contact youreuropeadvice for guidance.

sebstewart
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Re: Moving to EEA country with non EEA wife to use treaty ri

Post by sebstewart » Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:33 pm

dalebutt wrote:In my opinion, I think the most crucial point of argument is, are you a worker? If you are, I do not think UKBA can set any hurdle for you and your family member returning, you should be able to prove that your work is not that of marginal or ancillary in nature, if you met the criteria of a worker I think it will be hard for them to deny you of that right, but as you know appeal does take time, you should continue exercising your right if you are in a position to do so, so as to acquire more rights and evidence, you should also contact youreuropeadvice for guidance.
Thanks i contacted solvit (i think they are the same as youreuropeadvice) on monday so i should get a reply soon. And Severel members of my family in the uk will be contacting there local mp´s.

I must say I am surprised the entry clearance officer never mentioned the 2 certificates of residence for me and my wife from our local maire (town hall) which say we have been residing at our address sine the 3rd of June or anything about my wife’s 5 year residency card which has a start date of 03/07/2013 and has our address on it.

My definition of centre of life is probably very different to the ukba, but as far as the centre of my life is concerned the entry clearance officer must still think it’s in the uk. I haven’t set foot in the uk for almost a year and a half, have never rented accommodation had any utility bills in my name or owned a house in the uk.

I’ve been in france for over 8months lived in the house where I am for over 7 months. I live in small hamlet and one of the houses in this hamlet is my bosses farm I studied at an agricultural college and I am a farm worker here. On the weekends I have been socialising with my boss and regularly helping him with projects like restoring his Iconic French car as this is passion of mine ( I have pictures) my boss who is also a neighbour and become a very good friend can back up where I live and he also regularly sees me working for my accommodation.
My boss is willing to give me another 3 month contract which puts me in a better position. And The person providing the accommodation is willing to put a utility bill in my name.

dalebutt
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Re: Moving to EEA country with non EEA wife to use treaty ri

Post by dalebutt » Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:00 pm

This new regulation is going to do one thing only, leave helpless people at whim of UKBA caseworkers, who do not even have the time to proper check the documents present before them before making their decisions, the regulation is not clear cut and could be opened to any interpretation an ECO deem as appropriate, the judiciary is the last hope of the ordinary man.

As earlier said, just carry on with exercising treaty rights, and submit your appeal, it is the only way you and many more will get justice. Good luck, and stay positive.

rosebead
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Re: Moving to EEA country with non EEA wife to use treaty ri

Post by rosebead » Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:53 pm

Hi Seb,

Sorry to hear that the UKBA refused your application especially as it certainly sounds like your "centre of life" has been in France for 8 months. Would you mind me asking please how many months you have worked in France all together? I'm just wondering what the UK deems as a reasonable timeframe for being a worker in the EU.

sebstewart
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Re: Moving to EEA country with non EEA wife to use treaty ri

Post by sebstewart » Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:19 pm

rosebead wrote:Hi Seb,

Sorry to hear that the UKBA refused your application especially as it certainly sounds like your "centre of life" has been in France for 8 months. Would you mind me asking please how many months you have worked in France all together? I'm just wondering what the UK deems as a reasonable timeframe for being a worker in the EU.
I thought that was my weakest point 11weeks at 15hours a week i knew i had a good chance of being rejected with, that and mentioned (C-413/01)
but was never prepared for the centre of life i wasn’t even aware of the new additions of regulation 9
solvit
Dear Sir/Madam,

Please find below the reply to your enquiry. Please note that the advice given by Your Europe Advice is an independent advice and cannot be considered to be the opinion of the European Commission, of any other EU institution or its staff nor will this advice be binding upon the European Commission, any other EU or national institution.

Thank you, Mr Ap-Stewart, for contacting Your Europe Advice.

1. We are sorry to hear that your wife s application for an EEA Family Permit has been refused.

2. As you know the UK amended regulation 9 to introduce an additional requirement that British nationals who seek to return home after exercising free movement rights in another EEA country have to now demonstrate that they transferred their centre of life to another EEA member state.

3. As you are aware, under EU law, the non-EU family members of an EU citizen would have the right to reside in their EU relative s home country upon their return there if the EU citizen had previously worked in another EU country for a reasonable amount of time and the family members had lived there with him.

4. These rights stem from the European Court of Justice s ruling in Singh (case C-370/90) and Eind (case C-291/05).These cases concerned the rights of family members of EU citizens to benefit from EU rights of residence when returning back to the EU citizen s home country after spending some time working in another EU country (in the Singh case two years and in the Eind case for twenty months).

5. Therefore the Surinder Singh rules are not contained in a specific provision of the EU Treaties or EEA Agreement or indeed Directive 2004/38. Instead, the rules were laid down in case law.

6. There have not been any further rulings on the scope of these judgments. However, there are two cases currently pending before the EU Court of Justice - Cases C-456/12 and C-457/12 - which are essentially about whether the Surinder Singh ruling can be extended to other situations, such as recipient of services and cross-border workers. Advocate General Eleanor Sharpston has issued an Opinion recommending how the Court should rule on these issues, but the Opinion is not binding and the final judgment is not due until the middle of 2014 at the earliest.

7. In her Opinion she suggested that the Court rule the following:

(1) Directive 2004/38/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 29 April 2004 on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States does not apply directly to EU citizens returning to their Member State of nationality. However, the Member State of nationality may not give such EU citizens less favourable treatment than that owed to them as a matter of EU law in the Member State from which they moved to their Member State of nationality. As a result, Directive 2004/38 indirectly sets out the minimum standard of treatment that a returning EU citizen and his family members must enjoy in the EU citizen s Member State of nationality.
(2) EU law does not require an EU citizen to have resided for any minimum period of time in another Member State in order for his third country national family members to claim a derived right of residence in the Member State of nationality to which the EU citizen then returns.
(3) An EU citizen exercises his right of residence in another Member State if he makes that Member State the place where the habitual centre of his interests lies. Provided that, when all relevant facts are taken into account, that test is satisfied, it is irrelevant in this context whether that EU citizen keeps another form of residence elsewhere or whether his physical presence in the Member State of residence is regularly or irregularly interrupted.
(4) Where time elapses between the return of the EU citizen to the Member State of which he is a national and the arrival of the third country national family member in that Member State, the family member s entitlement to a derived right of residence in that Member State does not lapse provided that the decision to join the EU citizen is taken in the exercise of their right to a family life.
8. At present, it is very difficult to anticipate how to argue convincingly that the new requirement – namely that a person seeking to rely on the Surinder Singh ruling must have transferred their centre of life to another EEA member state - is contrary to EU law because the issue has not yet been addressed by the EU Court of Justice.

9. However, if the Court decides to follow the Advocate General, then we would anticipate that you would need to address these issues.

10. Applying paragraph (2) of the AG s Opinion to your situation, it means that the three months you have spent in France should be sufficient to demonstrate that you have exercised free movement rights because there is no time limit.

11. What should matter is therefore that you engaged in genuine and effective work that took place in France.
This would be demonstrated by producing documents that establish the following:
-you had a contract of employment,
-you were registered with a French social security institution,
-your work was remunerated and was not marginal, and
-you contributed to French social security institution.

12. Indeed the Advocate General makes the point that residence of up to three months is still residence (at point 137). She then makes the following point:

138. Suppose an EU citizen resided for two months in the host Member State and was joined there by his third country national spouse. Circumstances (perhaps, a parent s serious illness) cause him to return to his home Member State where he intends to reside with his spouse for the foreseeable future. He can do so provided that his spouse satisfies the relevant conditions in Directive 2004/38. The fact that she only lived with him for two months in the host Member State does not imply that the duration of her residence in the EU citizen s home Member State must be limited in the same manner. If it were [otherwise], the EU citizen might be forced either to refrain from moving back to his own Member State in order to continue to reside elsewhere in the European Union with his spouse, or to leave her behind when returning to his Member State because she could derive rights of residence only for two months and he needs to stay home for longer. Had they stayed in the host Member State, and provided that the relevant conditions were satisfied, his wife would have been able to stay for more than three months and possibly obtain permanent residence there.

13. The Advocate General then suggested how the Court should rule in a situation similar to yours:

144. Sponsor O moved from the Netherlands, married O in France and then moved with her husband to Spain. If O lawfully resided in Spain with sponsor O as a third country national family member of an EU citizen under Directive 2004/38, then sponsor O should not, when she returns to work and live in the Netherlands, be treated less favourably than when she moved to Spain to take up residence there. It follows, if those facts are confirmed (which is of course a matter for the national court), that O would have under EU law a right to lawful residence in the Netherlands. That right is neither unconditional nor absolute. It is subject to the conditions and limitations set out in Directive 2004/38 in the same way as his earlier right to residence in Spain. -- It is noteworthy here that there is no prescription in time as to the length of duration of residence.

14. Applying paragraph (3) of the AG s Opinion – namely that you made France the habitual centre of your interests – is more problematic and we would need more facts concerning the nature of your stay. By way of example, you would need to show that during the time you stayed in France, the habitual centre of your interests (work, family, accommodation and other relevant aspects) had indeed been transferred to France even if only for three months.

15. The fact that you did not rent accommodation should not be conclusive evidence that you did not move your habitual centre of your interests . There is nothing in EU or French law or UK law that prohibits you from staying rent-free somewhere. However, this might be considered as an indication that your stay was merely transitory in nature.

16. We suggest you give consideration to a number of possible options.

17. The first option is to appeal and request for the proceedings to be suspended until the EU Court of Justice has ruled in Cases C-456/12 and C-457/12. Regrettably, we do not have the mandate to represent you in an appeal. You would therefore need to seek the assistance of an organisation that can help you further.

Your local university may operate a law clinic where you can get free legal advice. Many clinics are listed on the website of LawWorks at the bottom of the page:
http://www.lawworks.org.uk/list-of-laww ... er-clinics

Depending on where you live, you may also visit your local law centre which provide free services.
http://www.lawcentres.org.uk/

The Immigration Law Practitioners Association is an association of immigration specialists, many of which are solicitors but some of their member organisations include Law Centres that provide free advice. Their members are listed here:
http://www.ilpa.org.uk/directory/webdirect.html

You can also search for a not-for-profit licensed immigration advisor here:
http://oisc.homeoffice.gov.uk/about_ois ... _advisers/

You can also seek the advice of a solicitor specialised in immigration matters. You can search for solicitors on the Law Society s website – enter your postcode and select immigration law from the Area of Law drop-down menu:
http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/choosingan ... icitor.law

18. At the same time you should consider returning to work France or in another EU country for long enough for your wife to obtain a residence card which usually takes up to six months. You would need to pay income tax in the country where you resided if you stayed in an EU country for more than 185 days.

19. During the period of any time spent in another EU country you should consider renting accommodation. If renting is not possible, you should aim to provide a written agreement between the landlord and you that specifies what you and your wife will do to contribute to the upkeep of the accommodation such as contributions to bills and/or specific house duties such as cleaning, taking care of plants or pets etc. You may wish to consider putting some utilities in your name such as mobile phone and/or internet subscriptions.

20 This would then allow you to make a new application to return to the UK in case you lost your appeal.

We hope this answers your query

rosebead
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Re: Moving to EEA country with non EEA wife to use treaty ri

Post by rosebead » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:15 pm

Hi Seb,

Thank you for posting Solvit's reply to you, it was very useful. Yes unfortunately there are now these new "centre of life" requirements since 1 January 2014, but what that means exactly is not fully clear yet. I recently wrote to the Home Office for clarification about the new Surinder Singh rules and according to them there is no minimum period of time that you have to work in the EU that is imposed by the amendment. Here's my email to the Home Office and their reply. However judging from your case, in practice there does seem to be a timeframe that the Home Office considers reasonable for working in the EU and unfortunately 11 weeks in your case is not sufficient for them.

It looks like that it's also necessary to provide more "substantial" proofs to the UKBA that you have established a habitual residence in your host country, like an offical tenancy contract (not a short-term contract) or utility bills, and a work contract that isn't fixed, or if fixed at least has the option of extension. I think points 18 and 19 of Solvit's reply are good advice. My gut feeling is that over 185 days of working would be enough, only because in most countries the tax rule is that over 185 days spent in one country deems you as a tax resident for that country. That said, the Home Office themselves told me that there is no minimum period of time that you have to work in the EU, so I would apply again anyway.

rosebead
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Re: Moving to EEA country with non EEA wife to use treaty ri

Post by rosebead » Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:23 pm

Hi sebstewart, in another thread you said that your wife had made an EEA Family Permit application in December before the new "centre of life" rules, but you were worried that the Home Office would have a problem with it because your wife had declared that you and her had no savings in that application yet she had submitted evidence of your English savings with her application. You chose not to pursue the December application and made a second application in January because of your worry. If the Home Office queries it, though I don't see why they should, simply explain that your wife had wanted to answer "n/a" in her online application because it has no relevance to her case but there was no option for writing "n/a" online. Some people do answer "n/a" with regards to savings in their application because savings are irrelevant to Surinder Singh applications, and supporting documents about savings are not required anyway for EEA Family Permit applications unless the EEA National has no job and is claiming self-sufficiency (which doesn't apply to Surinder Singh cases).

jestew
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Re: Moving to EEA country with non EEA wife to use treaty ri

Post by jestew » Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:24 pm

sebstewart wrote:
solvit
Dear Sir/Madam,

Please find below the reply to your enquiry. Please note that the advice given by Your Europe Advice is an independent advice and cannot be considered to be the opinion of the European Commission, of any other EU institution or its staff nor will this advice be binding upon the European Commission, any other EU or national institution.

Thank you, Mr Ap-Stewart, for contacting Your Europe Advice.

1. We are sorry to hear that your wife s application for an EEA Family Permit has been refused.
Hey sebstewart... How did things go for you and your wife?
09/05/14 EEA FP granted
26/08/14 EEA RP granted
23/08/19 SS Application submitted
24/09/19 Biometrics submitted
06/11/19: CoA
21/11/19: Email that Settled Status granted
22/11/19: BRC by courier

sebstewart
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Re: Moving to EEA country with non EEA wife to use treaty ri

Post by sebstewart » Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:55 pm

jestew wrote:
sebstewart wrote:
solvit
Dear Sir/Madam,

Please find below the reply to your enquiry. Please note that the advice given by Your Europe Advice is an independent advice and cannot be considered to be the opinion of the European Commission, of any other EU institution or its staff nor will this advice be binding upon the European Commission, any other EU or national institution.

Thank you, Mr Ap-Stewart, for contacting Your Europe Advice.

1. We are sorry to hear that your wife s application for an EEA Family Permit has been refused.
Hey sebstewart... How did things go for you and your wife?
hello

update

Unfortunately we didn't make an appeal.
We are still in France, we have:
• moved into rented accommodation at the start of April
• I have done 2 more months at my previous job
• I got a second job which lasts about 3 months (no contract but payslips)
• I have 2 scooters registers in mine and my wife’s name
• We are in the process of registering for income and housing support
we are trying to do everything we can to make our next application successful after living in France for 13 months now, we feel like we are almost there.

Seb

sebstewart
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Re: Moving to EEA country with non EEA wife to use treaty ri

Post by sebstewart » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:13 pm

well my wife applied again for an EEA family permit. She applied on the 6 of august in the application we stated we would like to travel on the 1 of September. It has taken them 3 weeks to the day to process it and obviously I complained about that on the 15th day and as of yet we have had no reply about the complaint from the UKVI. With the courier it should be with us in a couple of days probably the 29 of august :| . So much for an accelerated process!

sebstewart
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Re: Moving to EEA country with non EEA wife to use treaty ri

Post by sebstewart » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:32 pm

Hello! We received our parcel today and in my wife's passport we found an EEA FP good for 6 months :D . That is the first hand hopefully hardest step, but we receive this news with mixed emotion after living in a small comune in France for over a year! We have made some of the most amazing friends, without their help and also the help and information on here we would never of achieved what we have so far!

thank you very much!

rosebead
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Re: Moving to EEA country with non EEA wife to use treaty ri

Post by rosebead » Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:23 am

Congratulations! I'm glad you got there in the end :-)

sebstewart
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Re: Moving to EEA country with non EEA wife to use treaty ri

Post by sebstewart » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:41 pm

Hello,
Thank you very much! Even with a FP it was a palaver getting through immigration at Plymouth. The immigration officer questioned us for about 15 minutes asking for previous passports, the date we got married, the reason for my wife’s last stay in the UK. He clearly didn’t know what he was doing and had to go ask a college, eventually he stamped my wife’s passport, which I believe is incorrect but hey ho. I did start to wonder why I bothered to apply for a FP.
My wife is now applying for her residency permit. I understand, as the British citizen, that now I have to prove I am a qualified person. I am currently self-employed as I do not have a great wealth of paper work to prove I am currently self-employed. Will a letter from HMRC showing I am self-employed be enough evidence to show I’m qualified, or is it necessary to give more information for this application? (Such as payments and invoices).
Thanks,
Sebastian

rosebead
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Re: Moving to EEA country with non EEA wife to use treaty ri

Post by rosebead » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:24 pm

British sponsors who have returned under Surinder Singh do not have to be qualified in the UK. This is Eind case law.

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