Using the Surinder Singh to return to Ireland - advice

[Elizabeth06]

I've asked something similar previously and had great tips from people but I was wondering if anyone here has used the Surinder Singh route to return to Ireland, and could they answer a few questions for me.

I'm the Irish national and my husband is the non-EEA national. I'm working full time in the UK, and he lives here with me on his EEA family permit. We are looking to go home to Ireland.

I've been told that my husband can travel to Ireland on a UK residence card when we decide to go back. I emailed EU treaty rights section of INIS to confirm this, and they told me to apply through the EU1 form once in Ireland, but to email the GNIB instead about what I need to travel to Ireland in the first instance.

So I emailed the GNIB, and they said he can travel on his residence card to visit Ireland (once he gets it that is, as we are still waiting on it to be approved/issued), BUT they said if our intention is to settle in Ireland then technically he should apply for a visa first rather than travel on the residence card, and for this I must email INIS to find out which visa, but thats what I asked INIS in the first place and they sent me to GNIB.

I want it to be all correct and above board because I don't want any issues when we pack up to go back to Ireland, but it's like going around in circles now.

I also asked if there is a minimum time he needs to be here living with me while I exercise treaty rights in the UK, and haven't had any concrete response. Some people have just said simply, 'you're Irish, you can go back whenever you like since you've been working in the UK', but I'm sure that's not the case with the Surinder Singh route. I know all the people using the route for returning to the UK state its 10-12 weeks minimum, but other places say 6 months as a rule of thumb, but in practice is the Irish situation different, is 12 weeks enough. I've now been working here full time for just under 6 months, but my husband hasn't been here 3 months yet. If he gets his residence card soon, we'd like to leave then, but not if a month down the line his EU1 gets refused because we didn't live in the UK long enough.

Can anyone offer any advice?

[chaoclive]

There's even less guidance on the Ireland Surinder Singh position than the UK one.

If you're not in a major rush to get back to Ireland, you could still have your partner stay with you in Northern Ireland under the UK EEA Family Permit. That time still counts towards his 3 years of residence in Ireland for citizenship purposes.

I don't have any concrete info to add, sorry, but I guess the situation should be pretty similar to the UK one. If INIS haven't given you details, then just go on the premise that longer is better! Although, bear in mind that applications should probably go through the Irish Embassy in London. That can add time...I've heard they're not exactly the fastest at processing!

[Elizabeth06]

If you're not in a major rush to get back to Ireland, you could still have your partner stay with you in Northern Ireland under the UK EEA Family Permit.

Thanks for your reply

I've thought of moving to Northern Ireland alright, although his passport is with the residence card application at the minute which would make travel difficult, though I have had mine returned. I guess I'd like to keep a hold of my full time job here until I know it's ok to move home, but it's just knowing the correct information. I can't find a single official document anywhere that goes into it. Surely someone must have done it

I didn't know that living in Northern Ireland both counts as time living in the UK and towards Irish residency, that's really interesting, thanks

[chaoclive]

It totally counts! I'm a dual Irish/British citizen from N. Ireland and I'm planning to get my partner back into N. Ireland via Surinder Singh and then apply for Irish citizenship for him after living in N.I. for 3 years.

You can see this link:
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP11000014
"had, immediately before the date of the application, a period of one year’s continuous residence in the island of Ireland,
had, during the 4 years immediately preceding that period, a total residence in the island of Ireland amounting to 2 years,"

I've already checked with INIS and it is true that the N.I. residence counts!

Good to consider...

I've asked how spouse of Irish citizens will be treated on return to Ireland after Surinder Singh in another European country (i.e. are they viewed as spouse of an Irish citizen (3 years for citizenship) or spouse of an EU/EEA citizen (5 years for citizenship)), but they didn't reply! You might want to drop them an email to: INISsinu@justice.ie and eutreatyrights@justice.ie. They generally reply within a few days.

If you get any answers, please post them on here so we can help other Irish citizens to understand the process!

All the best!
CC

[chaoclive]

Just a note: time in NI only counts as residence towards Irish citizenship for spouses of Irish nationals... A UK citizen would not be able to get Irish citizenship for his/her spouse via NI

I'm sure most people know that already...but I didn't want to give a confused message...

[Elizabeth06]

You might want to drop them an email to: INISsinu@justice.ie and eutreatyrights@justice.ie. They generally reply within a few days.

If you get any answers, please post them on here so we can help other Irish citizens to understand the process!

All the best!
CC

Thanks for all of that

I have since re-emailed INIS, GNIB, EU Treaty rights section and Europe Direct who provide free advice on your rights as an EU citizen ( http://europa.eu/europedirect/introducing/index_en.htm ), so here's an update for anyone in a similar situation trying to figure it all out

EU Treaty Rights have now confirmed by email that there is no minimum time I need to be working in the UK, as an Irish citizen I can return home with my spouse and apply under EU1 when I'm in the country. I know now also that under EU case law, there is a precedent that a worker was deemed to have worked for a sufficient amount of time when working for 10 weeks at 12 hours per week to return their home country with their spouse.

GNIB have confirmed that my husband can enter Ireland with a UK residence card.

Europa Direct confirmed the same, that my husband only needs a UK residence card to enter Ireland, and is not under any obligation to apply for another entry visa if he holds this. If he does not hold this, then he should apply for an entry visa, and he can apply for a short stay or long stay visa, it doesn't matter which, although a short stay entry visa is a quicker easier process, with less documents required for the application, then apply with the EU1 form once in Ireland.

INIS on the other hand sent an unclear response and did not directly respond to my questions, and just included generic text about the rights of EU citizens and how INIS are not in a position to offer advice or interpretation of EU directives. I replied, saying that I was not looking for advice or interpretation, only to know which visa to apply for, if necessary at all. I then had another response saying that we should apply for a 'join spouse - Irish National' visa, which I know now is definitely incorrect.

So hope that helps other people on here, it,s a minefield, but getting clearer

[chaoclive]

Good: things are starting to become clearer.

See this: http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=147072

[Elizabeth06]

Good: things are starting to become clearer.

See this: http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=147072

That's really good to know, thanks for that

Will update you here with any new info I find out along the way too

PS Going to start job hunting in Northern Ireland from here as of now. Fingers crossed!!!

[chaoclive]

You could register with the recruitment agencies in Belfast before you leave GB.

Good luck!

[Elizabeth06]

My husband got his residence card issued by the UK under Article 10 of the Directive at the start of December, so that's solved the issue of an entry visa, also INIS have since updated their website (December 13th 2013) to state the following things:

''Holders of document called "Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen -
Family members of an EU citizen who are holders of a document called "Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen" as referred to in Articles 5 (2) and 10 (1) of Directive 2004/38/EC are not subject to an Irish visa requirement.''

It also states in the new 'Processing of Applications for Visas by Persons applying as Family Members of EU Citizens exercising or planning to exercise Free Movement Rights under Directive 2004/38/EC Guidelines for Visa Officers' issued on December 13th 2013 that -

''As of September 2013, applications under the Directive will be dealt with completely separately from applications to be considered under national law.''

And in the EU Treaty Rights section on the INIS website, it states -

''Q.13 I am an Irish National. Can my non EEA family members apply for EU Treaty Rights?

A The Directive applies to all Union citizens who move to or reside in a Member State other than that of which they are a national, and to their family members who accompany or join them. (Article 3 of Directive 2004/38/EC)
If, as an Irish national, you have exercised your EU Treaty Rights in another Member State with your family member and have now returned to Ireland, you may apply.

Evidence of having exercised your EU Treaty Rights in the other Member State in respect of you and your family member must be submitted with the application along with all other relevant documentation.''

So putting it all together, at least there is a bit more clarity, particularly around entering Ireland. We are going to move home in the next few weeks, gathering documents needed for the EU1 application now before we go.

[chaoclive]

Super. Good news:)

Hope it all works out for you.

I'm still confused as to how I'm going to get my non-EEA back to Northern Ireland. I think I'm gonna have to renounce my British citizenship....that seems to be the easiest way at the moment. Dual nationality is a nightmare here...can't legally go to either of the 2 countries under the Directive

[Elizabeth06]

I'm never 100% on how it works with dual-nationality in Northern Ireland - does that definitely exclude you from exercising free movement rights in both Ireland and the UK, because you are a national of both? I assume it does, but what if you have never lived in the other country?

I have heard of people renouncing one nationality alright, it just seems like a massive step, though in practice maybe it's not if you consider one of the locations to be where you want to permanently reside. Would you consider keeping both nationalities and relocating temporarily to another EU Member State, or is that not a possibility for you? In Malta, for example, you wouldn't have a language barrier, and it's relatively easy to find work teaching english in many of the mainland European countires?

Not much help, sorry, I'm sure you've considered all of this, it's a difficult one!

[chaoclive]

Hi Elizabeth

Thanks for your suggestions. I've considered all the options and, at this stage, I think I want to be back with my family as soon as possible. I've been living in China for over 7 years and I'm starting to miss everything back home, plus my sister just had a baby so I want to be there with them. My issue is that my Chinese visa is in my British passport so this all needs to be transferred to the Irish passport before I can renounce...another step in the process.

I had considered Surinder Singh via another country (e.g. Spain) but with the UK Surinder Singh rules becoming tighter who knows what might happen in the future. Jobs are not hard to find, but I'm no longer willing to dance my way around Europe for a year just to achieve something that renouncing my British citizenship could achieve much easier. Losing Brit Cit is actually not big deal to me...apart from the fact that I have to pay 200GBP for the privilege hehe.

Anyway...I'm just dying to get back!

All the best to you guys. Do keep us in the loop!

[Elizabeth06]

Aww, I understand! We all just want to go home. I really hope it works out for you too, sooner rather than later! One step at a time, just get started and keep going and you'll get home together. The national immigration rules within both Ireland and the UK are ridiculous when it has come to the point now that they are indirectly expelling their own citizens, and refusing to let their own citizens come home - leave the people you love most in the world - spouses, partners and children, or stay where you are. The lack of compassion is just shocking.

Keep us updated on your progress too, good luck

[chaoclive]

True, but I think that the Irish situation is must better than the UK one. Don't forget that you could also consider the Irish spouse visa. I'm not exactly sure of their requirements re: finance etc, but I'm sure it's a bit better than the UK. Since you're in the UK now though it might be good to keep going with this route.

Hope you get back as soon as you can!

Take care
C

[Elizabeth06]

True, but I think that the Irish situation is must better than the UK one. Don't forget that you could also consider the Irish spouse visa. I'm not exactly sure of their requirements re: finance etc, but I'm sure it's a bit better than the UK. Since you're in the UK now though it might be good to keep going with this route.

Hope you get back as soon as you can!

Take care
C

I thought that too, unfortunately, until we were reading the spouse visa refusal! It's a misconception everone has. MIPEX found that Ireland has some of the most restrictive policies in all of Europe and North America, it just doesn't make the press like in the UK. Immigration decisions have been 'discretionary', and how do you appeal against that?

Look at this:

http://www.nascireland.org/campaigns-fo ... ification/

and

http://www.nascireland.org/latest-news/ ... -concerns/

INIS finially published guidelines on 31/12/2013 setting out things like an income requirement of at least 40,000 over the last 3 years for the Irish citizen, and they can't have been reliant on benefits for at least 2 years prior to an application. They are talking of introducing tests as well, language and Irish culture and life. On the positive at least there are actual guidelines now, something to aim for, albeit restrictive enough to show that a large number of Irish citizens would never qualify, so hopefully they all fall in love with someone closer afield than outside the EU

[chaoclive]

Jaysus....I'd never heard of any of this before! Looks like we better get our partners sorted out via the EEA guidelines....and soon! At least I need to get the proverbial finger out - we haven't started the process and won't be able to do so until July 2014!

I didn't see the requirements about 40,000 and language tests in there. Do you have any links to that? I'll not be using it, but it'd be interesting to see what they are planning, especially for naturalization as an Irish citizen (something I'm hoping my partner will be able to apply to do after 3 years in the state) as the spouse/civil partner of an Irish citizen.

[Elizabeth06]

Yeah sure, here is a link to a summary of the guidelines I found by an Irish solicitors:

http://watterssolicitors.ie/non-eea-fam ... ification/

And here is a link to the new guidelines on the INIS website: (read 17.2 on page 47 for financial requirements for Irish citizens)

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Family%2 ... cument.pdf

The language/life in Ireland tests don't exist at the moment, but they talk about the possibility of introducing them in the official guidelines above, so they must be on the horizon.

Good to know about all of this especially if Irish citizenship is the option you are going for. New changes appearing constantly at the minute, both in the UK and Ireland, that's one of the reasons we are a little impatient to have everything finished, no idea what's around the corner.

[chaoclive]

Fingers crossed! Our situation is starting to sound more and more difficult.

I was partially planning to rely on the spouse visa if the EEA family permit back to N. Ireland fell through, looks like the EEA FP is the only choice now.

*Sweating*
CC

[chaoclive]

Hi Elizabeth

Any news about your husband's residence card in Ireland?

Hope it's all working out!
C