Unsuccessful PR application

[Grazia]

Hi there,

I’m EU citizen living in the UK since 2004. Recently I applied for certification of my PR status with 2 kids and non-EU husband.

I exercised treaty rights between 2004 and 2009 as:
Student (May 2004 - Sept 2005)
Self-sufficient person (supported by my husband) Oct 2005 – Apr 2006
I was out of the UK Apr 2006 – Sept 2006
Student (Oct 2006 – Sept 2010)

With my application I sent all the required documents such as utility bills, letters from estate agents/landlords, letters from university, bank accounts, CSI (Jan 2004-30 Apr 2009), registration certificate (issued in 2007 when I was a student).
We were all refused PR with the right to appeal. The reason for refusal was:
1. not sufficient number of transactions from bank account
2. lack of CSI for entire qualifying period

I want to add that at that time I was using two bank accounts, one in USA and one in the UK, copies of both statements for relevant period were attached and the situation explained in separate letter. From my UK account I was paying rent, internet and car insurance (DD). From the US account I was paying nursery fee (DD). My husband, working abroad at that time, was transferring money to my US account; I was withdrawing this money in cash machine and using cash for everyday life. It was nearly 10 years ago when card payments were not that popular and cash was the way to pay for shopping.

Could you please comment on this decision?

Many thanks in advance.

[sheraz7]

Hi there,

I’m EU citizen living in the UK since 2004. Recently I applied for certification of my PR status with 2 kids and non-EU husband.

I exercised treaty rights between 2004 and 2009 as:
Student (May 2004 - Sept 2005)
Self-sufficient person (supported by my husband) Oct 2005 – Apr 2006
I was out of the UK Apr 2006 – Sept 2006
Student (Oct 2006 – Sept 2010)

With my application I sent all the required documents such as utility bills, letters from estate agents/landlords, letters from university, bank accounts, CSI (Jan 2004-30 Apr 2009), registration certificate (issued in 2007 when I was a student).
We were all refused PR with the right to appeal. The reason for refusal was:
1. not sufficient number of transactions from bank account
2. lack of CSI for entire qualifying period

I want to add that at that time I was using two bank accounts, one in USA and one in the UK, copies of both statements for relevant period were attached and the situation explained in separate letter. From my UK account I was paying rent, internet and car insurance (DD). From the US account I was paying nursery fee (DD). My husband, working abroad at that time, was transferring money to my US account; I was withdrawing this money in cash machine and using cash for everyday life. It was nearly 10 years ago when card payments were not that popular and cash was the way to pay for shopping.

Could you please comment on this decision?

Many thanks in advance.

Since you already got Registration certificate on the basis of being student well before of 2011, therefore, your PR application should not be refused only on the grounds of CSI. You must ask for reconsideration of your case and yourself read about it at below:

Students issued with a registration certificate before 20 June 2011
If you were not asked to provide evidence of comprehensive sickness insurance, and later apply for permanent residence as a student, your application will not be refused solely on the grounds that there is no evidence of comprehensive sickness insurance on the date of decision.

For further guidance on the transitional arrangements for students who were issued with a registration certificate prior to 20 June 2011, please see Annex B of Chapter 6 of the European Casework Instructions (ECIs).

[vinny]

I don't understand what

1. not sufficient number of transactions from bank account

has got to do with PR?

[Grazia]

I don't understand what

1. not sufficient number of transactions from bank account

has got to do with PR?

Here is exactly as they wrote in the letter:

“The bank account statements provided do not evidence sufficient transactions and balance amounts to substantiate your assertion that you are continually a self-sufficient person.
You have not provided evidence that you hold comprehensive sickness insurance in the UK. The evidence you provided ended on 30 April 2009. Any attendance during your study after this date was not covered.”

Qestion 1: Is there any defined balance or transactions required on your bank account to be self-sufficient person for PR purpose?
I simply were taking money from US account, paying in some into my UK account to cover direct debits and were using cash for everyday life.

Question 2: Do I have to show self-sufficiency while studying?

[Obie]

I can see the logic if a person is applying for Residence Card. The point is to ensure that a person is self sufficient.
In 2005-2006, OP will be required to show that she had sufficient resource not to be a burden on the UK resources. Simoly showing a medical insurance does not fulfil this requirement. Evidence of how you supported yourself is required. If her husband was supporting the family, evidence of this should have been adduced.

In the absence of that supporting document , residency will break in 2005-2006, therefore she resume lawful residence in 2006, the CSI covered 2004-2009. It should cover 2006 -2010 when you completed your studies, you should then show what you did from 2010-2011 to qualify.

[Grazia]

Hi there,

I’m EU citizen living in the UK since 2004. Recently I applied for certification of my PR status with 2 kids and non-EU husband.

I exercised treaty rights between 2004 and 2009 as:
Student (May 2004 - Sept 2005)
Self-sufficient person (supported by my husband) Oct 2005 – Apr 2006
I was out of the UK Apr 2006 – Sept 2006
Student (Oct 2006 – Sept 2010)

With my application I sent all the required documents such as utility bills, letters from estate agents/landlords, letters from university, bank accounts, CSI (Jan 2004-30 Apr 2009), registration certificate (issued in 2007 when I was a student).
We were all refused PR with the right to appeal. The reason for refusal was:
1. not sufficient number of transactions from bank account
2. lack of CSI for entire qualifying period

I want to add that at that time I was using two bank accounts, one in USA and one in the UK, copies of both statements for relevant period were attached and the situation explained in separate letter. From my UK account I was paying rent, internet and car insurance (DD). From the US account I was paying nursery fee (DD). My husband, working abroad at that time, was transferring money to my US account; I was withdrawing this money in cash machine and using cash for everyday life. It was nearly 10 years ago when card payments were not that popular and cash was the way to pay for shopping.

Could you please comment on this decision?

Many thanks in advance.

Since you already got Registration certificate on the basis of being student well before of 2011, therefore, your PR application should not be refused only on the grounds of CSI. You must ask for reconsideration of your case and yourself read about it at below:

Students issued with a registration certificate before 20 June 2011
If you were not asked to provide evidence of comprehensive sickness insurance, and later apply for permanent residence as a student, your application will not be refused solely on the grounds that there is no evidence of comprehensive sickness insurance on the date of decision.

For further guidance on the transitional arrangements for students who were issued with a registration certificate prior to 20 June 2011, please see Annex B of Chapter 6 of the European Casework Instructions (ECIs).

Thanks Sheraz7 for your prompt reply. My understanding of the CSI is that I should be exempt from it for the period when I was a student because I applied for the registration certificate before 2001 while being a student. However, I attached the CSI to cover the period when I was self-sufficient person. Is my understanding correct?

[Grazia]

I can see the logic if a person is applying for Residence Card. The point is to ensure that a person is self sufficient.
In 2005-2006, OP will be required to show that she had sufficient resource not to be a burden on the UK resources. Simoly showing a medical insurance does not fulfil this requirement. Evidence of how you supported yourself is required. If her husband was supporting the family, evidence of this should have been adduced.

In the absence of that supporting document , residency will break in 2005-2006, therefore she resume lawful residence in 2006, the CSI covered 2004-2009. It should cover 2006 -2010 when you completed your studies, you should then show what you did from 2010-2011 to qualify.

Thanks Obie for your expertise but I don’t fully understand your point.
I applied for PR. For the self-sufficiency period I attached both bank statements:
1.the US bank account where my husband were regularly paying in money and I was withdrawing them in cash machine here in UK (evidence is on bank statements as cash withdrawals with postcode where that happened)
2.the UK bank account into which I was paying in some of this money I withdrew
I was not getting any benefits during the self-sufficiency period. Is that all not sufficient that I was self-sufficient?

[Davmck70]

My own approach to this matter is completely different. I will not question why they have decided to decline the application fully understanding that UKBA decisions are based on discretion at the service of individual case worker. I would rather look for evidences to back my claims up at the tribunal and also look for errors that have been made in making the decision. In as much as i love to advice on this particular situation, I am still learning more about the CSI and student applicants and thus can not say much at the mooment.
I am certain you will win this case from all perspective

[Davmck70]

I exercised treaty rights between 2004 and 2009 as:
Student (May 2004 - Sept 2005)
Self-sufficient person (supported by my husband) Oct 2005 – Apr 2006
I was out of the UK Apr 2006 – Sept 2006
Student (Oct 2006 – Sept 2010)

Can you give a timeline of when you applied and also when it was declined by HO?

[Grazia]

I exercised treaty rights between 2004 and 2009 as:
Student (May 2004 - Sept 2005)
Self-sufficient person (supported by my husband) Oct 2005 – Apr 2006
I was out of the UK Apr 2006 – Sept 2006
Student (Oct 2006 – Sept 2010)

Can you give a timeline of when you applied and also when it was declined by HO?

Thanks Davmck70 for your comment. I applied mid June 2013 and got the decision letter 24 September 2013. I appealed against the decission within 10 working days and will be going for the hearing on 20 January 2014. Please advise on the hearing process as I don't know what to expect. Will they decide and inform me about the decission on the same day?

There is one more thing in all this case that worries me the most. UKBA didn't return my husband's passport and send him rather aggresive letter to immediately leave the country.
Do they have the right to do that? How can we get his passport back?
Many thanks for your help.

[Davmck70]

Grazia,
I would suppose you have chosen the Oral hearing instead of paper. You have enough time between now and hearing date to prepare. My advice would be to use the website below to check which hearing is close to you and you can witness one to have an understanding of the way it works. Its a very relaxed environment to hear from both sides what transpired and also look for a way to amicably resolve issues in accordance to the governing laws and policies.
http://www.tribunals.gov.uk/Immigration ... tlists.htm

They will not return your hubby's passport as standard procedure which is a bit frustrating but not to worry, they have no right under the law to ask him to leave the country so kindly ignore the letter. You will win this case

[Grazia]

Grazia,
I would suppose you have chosen the Oral hearing instead of paper. You have enough time between now and hearing date to prepare. My advice would be to use the website below to check which hearing is close to you and you can witness one to have an understanding of the way it works. Its a very relaxed environment to hear from both sides what transpired and also look for a way to amicably resolve issues in accordance to the governing laws and policies.
http://www.tribunals.gov.uk/Immigration ... tlists.htm

They will not return your hubby's passport as standard procedure which is a bit frustrating but not to worry, they have no right under the law to ask him to leave the country so kindly ignore the letter. You will win this case

Thanks Davmck70 for your help. Will let you know the outcome after the hearing.
One more question, how long it takes to know about the decission after the hearing? Will they inform me immediately the same day? Thanks again.

[Davmck70]

Most times, the judge will want to make a decision on the same day unless there is any further disagreements which need clarified. If not, you will receive the decision via post after a maximum of "14 days" (not actual but from experience).

[Grazia]

Most times, the judge will want to make a decision on the same day unless there is any further disagreements which need clarified. If not, you will receive the decision via post after a maximum of "14 days" (not actual but from experience).

Hi Davmck70,
Hurray! We have got the decission letters in which the judge upheld our appeal and we'll be also returned court fees.
However, the letter doesn't say what should I do next. Will I be automatically issued with PR as a separate document as I'm EU citizen (obviously if HOBA doen't appeal against court ruling) or I will have to fill-in some forms and send my passport?
What with my husband's PR (he is non-EU and HOBA has been keeping his passport). How long it can take until he gets his passport back with PR?

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Contact UKBA and ask them to comply with the judgement.

[Grazia]

Contact UKBA and ask them to comply with the judgement.

Unfortunately this "hurray!" didn't last long. Today I was blown by the letter from 1st tier tribunal that Home Secretary applied for permission to appeal. It was a shock especially that during my appeal hearing HO representative didn't ask me even one question.
Please advise what should I expect next.
Q1. How long it can take before we are called for higher tribunal hearing?
Q2. Will the procedure be similar to our previous appeal, I mean HS will have to prepare grounds of appeal and we will know it prior to hearing or not?
Q3. Will I have to pay any court fee towards this appeal for example if HS appeal will be allowed?
Q4. As our appeal was allowed because we satisfied the HS refusal reason, the HS ground of appeal can be something new or HS things the judge was wrong?
I know some of these questions look weird but I'm trying to understand the process and be well-informed and prepared.
Your advice is much appreciated.