Refused - unable to verify evidence from employer

rajeevanand · Post by **rajeevanand** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:17 pm

No news yet. I got confirmation over email that they received my review application on 4th June. I had faxed it on 29th May. It's surprising that they have received it after 5 working days. And they say it could take upto 8 weeks for a decision. Can't believe it.

HSMP009 · Post by **HSMP009** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:58 pm

Hi EveryOne,

This is my first post, though i have been reading through the FORUM from last 6months. Thanks to everyone for the valuable information provided.

I have got the HSMP approval letter on 15th March dated. I have also applied for EC and got refused today ( June 12th 07) . EC people have retained my HMSP original letter.

Time Lines:
EC applied : 28th May
EC Refused: 11th June
11 working days

Reason for rejection: They have given only 30 points for my previous earnings ( originally claimed for earnings was 45pts, Educ: 30pts , Age 5pts). They have not considered my reimbursement which is part of my CTC. They have only considered my Salary part.

CTC is divided into ( Salary + Reimbursement ) for tax benefit.

I donot want to reapply or Appeal as they may still say the same.

So main question is can i apply for new HSMP letter ( reapply with for a new HSMP approval with only salary excluding Reimbursement). Can i apply for another HSMP with one already valid.. is there any time limit.

My old HSMP is valid till Sep 06, can I apply for another HSMP.

Thanks
HSMP009

roy_rajat · Post by **roy_rajat** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:08 am

I am a bit confused. i have just applied for HSMP from UK. Does HSMP point evaluation for out of country applicants occurs twice? i.e first at the main HSMP application stage and second at the EC stage? Is it same for in country applicants applying to obtain FLR post HSMP approval? Do we (in country applicants) need to provide all the proofs for obtaining the points claimed once again when we apply for FLR?

rajeevanand · Post by **rajeevanand** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:47 am

With the new scheme, I'm afraid that's true.

You have to supply the same set of evidence again for EC (out-of-country) / FLR(in-country).

That said, please refer to the guidelines of relevant EC or FLR for correct details.

HSMPreqJun07 · Post by **HSMPreqJun07** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:17 am

From reading the FLR(HSMP) quidance note, I understand that providing the documents for the purpose of calculating the points is only required from applicants who are extending their leave not for those who just received their HSMP for the first time

roy_rajat · Post by **roy_rajat** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:13 am

rajeevanand wrote:With the new scheme, I'm afraid that's true.

You have to supply the same set of evidence again for EC (out-of-country) / FLR(in-country).

That said, please refer to the guidelines of relevant EC or FLR for correct details.

Ok i have confirmed it, FLR does not need to provide evidence for points claimed unless it is an HSMP extension. Moreover, in the list of documents to be submitted i did not see the requirement for sending the HSMP approval letter. Has there been any in country applicant who have not sent their HSMP approval letter and received FLR without any hassle?

vora · Post by **vora** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:37 pm

Hello everyone,
I have recieved a responce for my review request and it has been refused. I have checked with my employer and they didnt recieve any call this time.

m not sure if i should re-apply or not? any suggestions are welcome.

rajeevanand · Post by **rajeevanand** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:08 am

Hi Vora

Sorry to hear that. What was the reason they gave for refusal?

Rajeev

vora · Post by **vora** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:18 am

"we have conducted an independent review of your case, but after careful consideration your application is refused...."
rest of the story in the letter was same as it was with original refusal letter.

gordon · Post by **gordon** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:20 pm

Vora (and others)

When verification occurs re employment/earnings documentation, is this necessarily an issue of contacting the employer or human-resources representative? There seem to be enough refusals on this basis without contact with employers to suggest that their verification process might also comprise other elements, perhaps such as:

1. evaluation of intrisic authenticity of documents (this can be particularly relevant when dealing with employer letters rather than, say bank statements).
2. corroboration of payslips with other documentation - any discrepancies might be considered suspicious and therefore be grounds for refusal.
3. contacting tax authorities.

Bear in mind that it's incumbent on the applicant to demonstrate that [a] the earnings were received, these earnings can be corroborated by at least one independent and separate document, [c] all documents are fully consistent with each other, and [d] the documents are genuine. The burden of proof has always been on the applicant to show that there is an iron-clad case that the application should be approved, remember, not on the caseworker to show why the application unqualifiedly merits refusal.

I'm just speculating here, but the evaluation of authenticity of documents can seem very subjective - however, letters, for instance, are easy to falsify, and if it should be the case that documents alleged to be falsified were received with elevated frequency from applicants from your country in the past, then the caseworkers may be more skeptical about such documents thereafter (perhaps relative to, say, bank statements or tax returns).

Of course, the lack of employer verification might point simply to the caseworkers not getting through by phone on the first try, although I can't speculate as to why the caseworkers do not otherwise use the email addresses or fax numbers they requested.

G

rajeevanand · Post by **rajeevanand** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:13 pm

gordon wrote:Vora (and others)

I'm just speculating here, but the evaluation of authenticity of documents can seem very subjective - however, letters, for instance, are easy to falsify, and if it should be the case that documents alleged to be falsified were received with elevated frequency from applicants from your country in the past, then the caseworkers may be more skeptical about such documents thereafter (perhaps relative to, say, bank statements or tax returns).

Of course, the lack of employer verification might point simply to the caseworkers not getting through by phone on the first try, although I can't speculate as to why the caseworkers do not otherwise use the email addresses or fax numbers they requested.

G

In my case, though I applied from India, the evidence supplied was for my work experience in UK. I had supplied relevant bank statements, P60, etc alongwith salary slips and employer letter. Is it justified to just reject an application just because they couldn't get the employer through telephone. For the money they charge, if I were in their place, I would try to write a letter to the official address or drop an email to the official email id.

It pains me so much that my hard earned money goes down the drain just because someone is unwilling to take that extra effort. Or they should make it clear in the guidance notes, what forms of communication are mandatory.

Considering that this is my third application in 6 months since last october, I'm losing hope in the fairness of this system.

kck9 · Post by **kck9** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:35 pm

hello rajeev,

sorry to hear this. i know how frustrating it is. even i am an indian and the fee amount counts a lot in Indian rupees. Sometimes they reject the things for very silly reasons. Dont worry, hope you will get a positive reply this time. Hope for the best.

By the way u said u made this appliction from india by keeping UK experience. Did you took the salary on pro-rata basis. I mean to say was there any experience from India aswell. If so have you provided complete proofs for India job also. Because recently my cousins case was rejected because of no proofs for India job (even they there was enough evidence). look at this thread for more details

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=16295

Am just asking this because, they might have contacted your other employer in India even though you are not counting that experience.

Just an imagination

rajeevanand · Post by **rajeevanand** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:33 pm

Well, my evidence for the full 12 months was from the UK as I have been working for over 3-1/2 years.

To know my full story, visit -
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 4555#94555

Thanks for your good wishes.

rajeevanand · Post by **rajeevanand** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:06 pm

Here's another failure. The imminent has happenned.

The HSMP team have successfully rejected my appeal.

Reasons -

"We have noted the contents of your letter regarding contacting the signatory of the employer letter provided with the initial application on a different phone number.

However, the number you have quoted does not appear on any document relating to your previous employer."

Isn't it common sense, in the first place, the reason I provided an alternate number was because the number present in the documents were not reachable.

Is that a reason for rejection?? I'm stumped and have no words to describe their attitude.

I had even provided the contacts for the payroll agency that handles my employer's accounts. They dont appear to have contacted them at all. So, if they have made up their mind to refuse an application anyway, why play this drama of reviews. I really wish our roles are reversed and want them to know what I'm going thru.

I'm planning to submit a complaint.

Any inputs will be highly appreciated.

jobi110 · Post by **jobi110** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:01 am

rajeevanand

I am really sorry about your rejection....WorkPermits UK surely have double standards.

I am in same boat as you. my application was rejected for same reason that they could not contact the employer. in my review letter I mentioned the new numbers. Someone from BHC just called my employer yesterday and asked if that is the same company. thts it..no HR check or anything.

I am not sure whats going to happen to my review case but fater reading your experience I m loosing hope

siqbal · Post by **siqbal** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:03 pm

@rajeevanand and @vora

Really sad to hear about the rejection of your application... The reasons are simply ridiculous... I have seen people getting hsmp approved with fake documents through or without through agenecies.... They (HO) seems to have dual standards....

I don't know what is going to happen with my application...

BTW: Did you people obtained report from the "Freedom .... " department... (or whatever the name is!) ... ???

Wish you best of luck in future to both of you...

@ jobi110

What are your time lines..???? Any information will be appreciated...!!

rajeevanand · Post by **rajeevanand** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:31 am

I did not attempt it as I was confident that if it all my application was considered on the details provided, it has to be approved. I came to know that there was a genuine problem in making contact with my employer and hence I provided new contact details where he can be reached.

For whatever reasons, they have basically made up their mind to reject. If I had not bought a house in the UK, I would'nt even have spent on this HSMP application.

My previous rejections are ridiculous by themselves.

Finally, it all boils down to my destiny. I think I had my share of stay in the UK and have no regrets to have come out of that country. It was an earning opportunity, that was the reason I went there, that was the reason I wanted to go back. But in 2 years I had decided to come back anyway. It happenned a bit earler. Probably god has something else in store for me. I'll take it that way.

Anyway, good luck to you. Take care.

If someone's looking to share an accommodation in READING, please PM me and we can work out something. I have a house which is vacant.

vora · Post by **vora** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:44 am

siqbal,
i requested the information as per freedom of information Act. have'nt recvd anything yet, probably will take another week or two.

I'm double minded to apply again or not? cz i know they will again throw me in the same line.. by the way if i dont mention that i have applied once already..would that give me any benefit? and do they check, somebody has applied already or not?

any comments?

Rajeev,
i'm in process of finalizing one job in slough, if that works out. I'll contact u. Good luck with ur future plans.

pantaiema · Post by **pantaiema** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:42 pm

I do not think this one is true. How could they apply doble standard if they even do not know who you are, who your friends are ???

I just see this one as lucky factor. Remeber that verification are based on random checking.

Pantaiema

[quote="siqbal"]@rajeevanand and @vora

They (HO) seems to have dual standards....

quote]

pantaiema · Post by **pantaiema** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:50 pm

I fully agree with this. Remember that U will not get the benefit of the doubt. So it is your duties to help them to see your case thorughly.

This is especially true if your piece of evidence are acquired outside UK, as it is difficult to verify them. Also in the past there are quite significant numbers of applicants have faked their documents. This make genuine applicants become difficult.

Pantaiema

gordon wrote:Vora (and others)

The burden of proof has always been on the applicant to show that there is an iron-clad case that the application should be approved, remember, not on the caseworker to show why the application unqualifiedly merits refusal.
.

G

SYH · Post by **SYH** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:51 pm

siqbal wrote:@rajeevanand and @vora

Really sad to hear about the rejection of your application... The reasons are simply ridiculous... I have seen people getting hsmp approved with fake documents through or without through agenecies.... They (HO) seems to have dual standards....

I don't know what is going to happen with my application...

BTW: Did you people obtained report from the "Freedom .... " department... (or whatever the name is!) ... ???

Wish you best of luck in future to both of you...

@ jobi110

What are your time lines..???? Any information will be appreciated...!!

What do mean you have seen get approved with fake documents?
You mean to say people provided documents that they were working and making income but wasn't true?

kundan · Post by **kundan** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:27 pm

Hi
Did any body get verifcation document under the freedom info act. Is it helpful for reveiw application at all. Mine HSMP refused saying 'unable to verify past earnings'. Even though my ex-employer was contacted and he provided/confirmed the required information on phone.
Thanks

rajeevanand · Post by **rajeevanand** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:55 pm

I've given up analyzing the decision making capabilities of the HO. I'm now happily working back in India.

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Refused - unable to verify evidence from employer