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Got approval after making HSMP Complaint (not review)

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kck9
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Got approval after making HSMP Complaint (not review)

Post by kck9 » Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:52 am

Just an update of this thread, now my cousin got approval after making a complaint........This thread is not asking any information, but I promise it gives you lot of inspiration. Please go through the complete story, if you want to know anything about reviews and complaints. Drop me a message if I can be any help
Dear friends,

Have you seen any situation where you got approval after making an acceptable complaint.

My cousin lost both initial and review applications. but now he found some valid reason for misjudging his application. This is because when he applied Guidance notes version 4.0 was in place and after he applied in 2 days they changed it to Guidance notes version 5.0 where they have cleared so many doubts.

Now we just want to make a complaint for failing to provide the rules clearly in advance and case worker followed guidance version 5.0 for evaluating.

Could you please let me know the procedure for complaints.

is there any other way to win the case? can they approve the case after the complaint?

please drop your suggestions.

for more information regarding my cousins case, please see

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=16295

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... ght=#98487


Thank you
Last edited by kck9 on Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kck9
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Post by kck9 » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:17 pm

please post your suggesstions guys......

kck9
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Post by kck9 » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:23 pm

did any of you guys made complaints and got through the applications

ball1333
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Post by ball1333 » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:31 pm

You're not getting replies because your question covers an impossible hypothetical.

The point of the complaints process is to determine whether you're due compensation for whatever the HSMP people might have done wrong with your case. The complaints process is separate from the HSMP approval process.

If your first HSMP application is refused on the basis of the evidence that you provide, you are entitled to 1 review of the same evidence. If your application is refused again after review, you can send a fresh application with a full GBP 400 fee.

That's how it works!

gordon
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Post by gordon » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:18 pm

And just to follow on, I think that the caseworker's argument was that there were insufficient grounds for proration of income, since you did not show proper documentation of the India earnings, and (in the review) it appears that you did not convince them that the documentation provided met expectations. I think your argument relied on a default position that the absence of a work permit equated to working abroad, rather than just having a break in employment.

It's not clear that the application was handled incorrectly (as grounds for a complaint beyond the single review allowed); your documentation did not meet requirements even before the clarification of the guidance notes. In my case, for instance, the guidance notes were unclear on consulting earnings (alternately called independent contractor earnings) - and so I had to re-submit. In your case, the expectations are much clearer, so you can resubmit the application and it should go through with no problem.

AG

SYH
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Post by SYH » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:27 pm

gordon wrote:And just to follow on, I think that the caseworker's argument was that there were insufficient grounds for proration of income, since you did not show proper documentation of the India earnings, and (in the review) it appears that you did not convince them that the documentation provided met expectations. I think your argument relied on a default position that the absence of a work permit equated to working abroad, rather than just having a break in employment.

It's not clear that the application was handled incorrectly (as grounds for a complaint beyond the single review allowed); your documentation did not meet requirements even before the clarification of the guidance notes. In my case, for instance, the guidance notes were unclear on consulting earnings (alternately called independent contractor earnings) - and so I had to re-submit. In your case, the expectations are much clearer, so you can resubmit the application and it should go through with no problem.

AG
And that is why they are being more and more specific about earnings for self employed, directors and employees through agencies because there was a some room for misinterpretation and now they have attempted to close it but I agree with gordon, kcks9 your case was more clear in terms of its deficiencies

kck9
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Post by kck9 » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:06 am

Thnx for your support guys, but to make a new application my cousin recently crossed (after making the initial 1st application) the age band and he lost 5 points. Now he cant easily cover up the past earnings criteria as he need to cover up £3000 extra.

Thats the only reason we are making a complaint, otherwise we would have made the new application long back.

Thnx for your support. Any more ideas guys, either with the complaints or going through solicitor etc

ikon1400
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Post by ikon1400 » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:33 am

Hi Kck9,

All the above posts from the seniors are quite explanatory and looks solid.

Since you say that your cousin has lost the age points, you can try(a big time risk may be) to lodge a complaint.

You call up the cutomer care , tel them clearly that you are not happy with the review and you want to go further about your case. Hear what they say. I am sure they wil give some details in this case.Coz when i picked up a conversation with one customer service guy during my review he said i shal give you the comaplaint number et.c. but i dint note it down.

You try this. I would say you have nothing to loose now in ths applcation.

Cheers
ikon

SYH
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Post by SYH » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:14 am

kck9 wrote:Thnx for your support guys, but to make a new application my cousin recently crossed (after making the initial 1st application) the age band and he lost 5 points. Now he cant easily cover up the past earnings criteria as he need to cover up £3000 extra.

Thats the only reason we are making a complaint, otherwise we would have made the new application long back.

Thnx for your support. Any more ideas guys, either with the complaints or going through solicitor etc
Or ask for exceptional circumstances and explain it on the new application, and maybe they will take pity

kck9
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Post by kck9 » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:37 am

Sure, I will ask my cousin to do that, thnx for your ever lasting support. keep you updated.

kck9
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Post by kck9 » Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:25 am

My cousin made a complaint last week. We are still waiting for the reply. Didnt even receive any acknoledgements. we are still waiting.

Did any one made a complaint. Could you please share me the details,

what kind of complaint? what did you receive in reply? are they responding for any complaints at all. Please let me know.

Thank you

ikon1400
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Post by ikon1400 » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:14 am

Hi Kck9,

First of all i appreciate the courage you are having on your case & also the confidence you show towards achieving it. Keep it up..

Can you share the info like how ur cousin lodged a complaint?? is there any application form or any fax ? etc

Anyways me too wil try to gather the info for the process related to complaint & will let you know if i get some.

Cheers
ikon

kck9
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Post by kck9 » Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:58 pm

Thnx for your support ikon...

It is not the courage, but they have changed the guidance version 4-5 on the next day we applied. If they would have released before, we would have made all the application very clear. Even the Case workers internal guidance was released sometime in June. Thats the reason we are fighting back. We dont mind to make a new application, but he recently jumped to different age band and he cant reach the required points in near future.

But anyway we are very much clear about what we have done.....so we have to wait for the reply. Depending on the kind of response by Complaints team we would like to report that local MP also. Becuase it is their mistake to print the uncompleted guidance notes and trying to make the corrections as they go along.

anyway, there is no application form. we just sent the typed letter and signed it. we sent that to

Complaints and Compensation Team
Border and Immigration Agency (BIA)
PO Box 3468
Sheffield
S3 8WA

Please give me some suggestions to fight and fire back my friends........

Thank you

avjones
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Post by avjones » Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:51 pm

sorry to say, but I think your friend's stuffed unless he can make up the points some other way.
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

ikon1400
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Post by ikon1400 » Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:25 am

hi kck9,

you have done the home work now. Lets wait to hear from the complaints team & my kind advice would be to stay calm till some result is given to you. Please do not call them or email them often. I am telling this coz they track every conversation with them against our ref number.

neways all de best dude.

Cheers
ikon

SYH
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Post by SYH » Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:55 am

kck9 wrote:Thnx for your support ikon...

It is not the courage, but they have changed the guidance version 4-5 on the next day we applied. If they would have released before, we would have made all the application very clear. Even the Case workers internal guidance was released sometime in June. Thats the reason we are fighting back. We dont mind to make a new application, but he recently jumped to different age band and he cant reach the required points in near future.

But anyway we are very much clear about what we have done.....so we have to wait for the reply. Depending on the kind of response by Complaints team we would like to report that local MP also. Becuase it is their mistake to print the uncompleted guidance notes and trying to make the corrections as they go along.

anyway, there is no application form. we just sent the typed letter and signed it. we sent that to

Complaints and Compensation Team
Border and Immigration Agency (BIA)
PO Box 3468
Sheffield
S3 8WA

Please give me some suggestions to fight and fire back my friends........

Thank you
That's really a bad break
Let me ask you this
Will you be able to renew successfully with the new criteria. I myself have looked at the new application and frankly if I had to renew, I probably wouldn't satisfy the criteria, although I am fuzzy about what they do about your diplomas and how they credit you points. In any case, the point being is it worth all this hassle to get the visa based on former criteria if you are going to be out on your rump under the new criteria for renewal. Just a thought

kck9
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Post by kck9 » Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:05 am

Thnx for your replies Ikon and SYH,

my complaint was not on the new rules and old rules that they have changed. But it was completely on changing the version's of guidance notes and making some clarifications as they go along.

for example:
Guidance notes version 4.0 Annex c – Points scoring area (What if your working pattern does not fit this model) says
If you have lived and worked in more than one country during the past 15 months we will normally assess your income over a 12-month period against the country where you have spent the longest period, on a pro-rata basis. For example we consider a period of up to 12 months in the last 15, so that if you have spent 8 of the months in the United Kingdom and 4 in Nigeria, we will take your earned income in the United Kingdom, divide it by eight and multiply it by 12 to give an annual income figure. You will then be allocated points appropriate to that figure. You need to submit the appropriate forms of evidence for consideration (see below).
Guidance notes version 5.0 Annex c – Points scoring area (What if your working pattern does not fit this model) point 41 says
If you have lived and worked in more than one country during the past 15 months we will normally assess your income over a 12-month period against the country where you have spent the longest period, on a pro-rata basis. For example we consider a period of up to 12 months in the last 15, so that if you have spent 8 of the months in the United Kingdom and 4 in Nigeria, we will take your earned income in the United Kingdom, divide it by eight and multiply it by 12 to give an annual income figure. You will then be allocated points appropriate to that figure. If you wish to have your earnings calculated on a pro-rata basis, you should supply supporting evidence to cover the full earnings period claimed. You need to submit the appropriate forms of evidence for consideration for the earnings period claimed (see below).
you can see the differences that I have underlined.

like wise

Guidance notes version 4.0 under Annex C – Points scoring area
Introduction and Points Available
You can claim points for your previous earnings obtained from your work.

We will assess your gross earnings before tax over a total period of up to 12 months out of the 15 months immediately prior to your application. The earnings can be for any 12 month period out of the last 15 months. This applies if you are in salaried or non-salaried employment.
Guidance notes version 5.0 under Annex C – Points scoring area
Introduction and Points Available
27. You can claim points for your previous earnings obtained from your work.

28. We will assess your gross earnings before tax over a total period of up to 12 months out of the 15 months immediately prior to your application. The earnings can be for any consecutive12-month period out of the last 15 months. There can be gaps in employment within this 12 month period. However, the cumulative earnings total will still need to meet the earnings threshold claimed against. This applies if you are in salaried or non-salaried employment. You should indicate the start and end date of the period claimed on the application form. If you claim for a period exceeding/outside the 12 months out of a 15-month period prior to the application date, we will assess the 12 months directly prior to the application date.
Now you can see how much they have added in the new version. By seeing the discussion boards you know, how many people might have been affected with this 2 contraversial statements. Like this there are so many statements and this is just an example.

Guys, we have to fight back. thats what I can say. If they would have posted the chages everything at once, you can imagine how many people might have made successful applications. This is completely a mistake by homeoffice.

hope this helps guys......need your advices and suggestions for this great fight and move.

ikon1400
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Post by ikon1400 » Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:07 am

HI Kck9,

I completely agree with you. Its utter negligence from the HO point that they should see applications twice before deciding when some application comes during a new version release.

Ho's will work as Robot( i saw this phrase in some post here)..If this is the case atleast let the Robots have eyes. coz most rejections are approved after a review .what it means here is the CW who handled previuosly is a dumb? or does review only can explain the mater clearly?

I have some real fun here about the case workers or customer care centes job.

1) Was given a wrong ref number for my fiances cases with which we confirmed tat her case was approved,when we mailed to colect docs we got a apologies sayin it was a wrong ref number. Shock nothing else..can this single APOLOGY solve the problem?

2) Called Customer care oneday to find the status of my docs, was told tat the case is stil under consideration . But previous day i was told its approved and wil be sent in courier..but whn i intervened and said see i knw its approevd and can you conect to CW ..they wait a min & say yes ur docs are on the way.

3) In my case i clearly mentioned tat i will collect my docs, but they din see that in covering letter and sent in Rooyal mail which nearly folded my degree certificate in to 4 halves :twisted: ..Who can be blamed now ..none other than HO


There might be so many funny acts in the past, but many goes unnoticed.

Again Kck9,Stay focussed ..We are here to support you. All the best.

Lets fight atleast for the 400pounds you paid. :lol: :D

Cheers
ikon

kck9
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Post by kck9 » Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:21 am

thnx for your support Ikon...........

yes we have to fight for the compesation atleast. My cousin dont mind, as he is having workpermit now. It is just we thought of some flexibility.....never mind.......

pantaiema
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Post by pantaiema » Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:40 pm

I fully agree with this. It is clear in the guidelines the choice is 'Appeal' or 'New Application'

People could make complaint but this is intended to improve their service. Not to make individual decision.

Pantaiema



ball1333 wrote:You're not getting replies because your question covers an impossible hypothetical.

The point of the complaints process is to determine whether you're due compensation for whatever the HSMP people might have done wrong with your case. The complaints process is separate from the HSMP approval process.

If your first HSMP application is refused on the basis of the evidence that you provide, you are entitled to 1 review of the same evidence. If your application is refused again after review, you can send a fresh application with a full GBP 400 fee.

That's how it works!

gordon
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Post by gordon » Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:44 pm

I'm not sure that one can fairly take such a negative view of caseworkers; to take the alternate view, the earlier guidance notes were obviously sufficiently clear that kck9's cousin was expected to submit documentation of the period for which he was not employed in the UK. After all, he did submit documentation of his India earnings (although the evidence were not sufficient), and that documentation was implicitly required and presented not for the purpose of calculating total earnings but to justify the proration that the applicant needed for the earnings points threshold. And where requirements were not spelled out, they were nonetheless implicit, and fully reasonable on the basis of context and basic logic.

Saying that the HO was negligent could just as easily be applied to kck9's cousin in preparing his application, who at the time submitted his India earnings documentation for a particular purpose (to justify proration of UK earnings). But thereafter to make the argument that the earlier guidance notes never required that he do so (even though he clearly attempted to do so), as a basis for complaint of application mis-handling, is neither honest nor above-board.

AG

kck9
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Post by kck9 » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:19 am

Yes Gordon,

what you are saying is true.....we are using the guidance notes for fighting back. but you can see the difference of wordings in version 4 and version 5.

version4 just says, "You need to submit the appropriate forms of evidence for consideration"

where as version 5.0 says "If you wish to have your earnings calculated on a pro-rata basis, you should supply supporting evidence to cover the full earnings period claimed. You need to submit the appropriate forms of evidence for consideration for the earnings period claimed (see below)."

they clearly tried to explain in detail. But with guidance notes version 4.0, everyone thinks that they need to submit the appropriate evidence for the period that they have claimed earnings and to prove that he lived and worked in two different coutries. If we would have seen that extra statement which was added in version 5.0 we would have taken some more time, effort and explanation to prove that we provided all the evidences for the work in india. if we think that the evidence is not acceptable, we would have taken some more care to collect new evidence like Form-16 or Saral (income tax documents) in India.

with the initial application itself we thought that we have to prove only that we lived and worked in 2 countries, and provide the earnings evidence for the country that you are claiming earnings. so in a way my cousin provided evidence that he lived and worked in india (in a way he is away from UK) (nothing to do with indian earnings)........he just provided letter from the employer, a settlement slip (amount) and entry/exit details pages on the passport to prove that he is away from UK.

Ofcourse we provided the documents morethan enough for the earnings in UK which we actually claimed and requested to pro-ratise.....

now in the new version 5.0 it clearly says the supporting evidence should be sent to cover the Full earnings period claimed which is the statement we need...

hope you understand this...........moreover we didnt even notice the changes when we applied for review, because my cousin downloaded the guidance notes version 4.0 and he was just working on that......

Thnx for your comments.........

gordon
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Post by gordon » Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:00 pm

Of course, there's also nothing in the earlier (or later) guidance notes that suggests that the evidentiary requirements differ for those who ask for a portion of their earnings to be considered pro rata. After all, it's the earnings that are to be prorated, not the evidence required. There was nothing to suggest that the entirety of the subsequent section on 'Evidence required', making repeated reference to the full 12-month earnings period claimed, did not also apply to your cousin's application.
AG

kck9
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Post by kck9 » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:29 am

gordon wrote:Of course, there's also nothing in the earlier (or later) guidance notes that suggests that the evidentiary requirements differ for those who ask for a portion of their earnings to be considered pro rata. After all, it's the earnings that are to be prorated, not the evidence required. There was nothing to suggest that the entirety of the subsequent section on 'Evidence required', making repeated reference to the full 12-month earnings period claimed, did not also apply to your cousin's application.
AG
Thnx for your comments......we already made a complaint, lets see how they are going to respond......

kck9
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Post by kck9 » Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:23 pm

At laaaaaaaaaaast,

This thread is successful........ Ikon, my cousin got the approval after we made a complaint. Mind you this is not after 1st review. As you guys know, we were confident about the case and we applied for 1st review, it failed and again we made a complaint.

Now he got the approval. he is getting ready for the FLR stage.

Keep fighting if you are sure that you made no mistake. Make sure your case is strong otherwise they might directly reject and dont know if there can be some other implications for your future applications.

Ikon sorry to drag you in this thread, this was the one I created long back regarding Complaint issues (so called 2nd reviews).

Good luck

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