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Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

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shortdays
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Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

Post by shortdays » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:03 pm

Hello Members,

Below is my brief history, would appreciate some inputs from experienced senior menbers.

- 1st Application - Jan'13
- Visa Expired - Feb'13
- Application returned as invalid after 1 week of visa expiration due to payment declined.
- Sent another application the same day with fees & went through this time.
- Application refused in June'13 with no right of appeal.
- Directly applealed to FTT, with bank letter confirming no payment attempt was made by UKBA when I applied in Jan'13 and based on this my appeal was listed for hearing on Jan'14.
- In the beginning of appeal, Judge asked HOPO to provide evidence of declined payment on my first application (Jan'13) BUT they could't & my appeal was heard in full.
- FTT dismissed my appeal (letter dated 03.02) & gave me an option to go to upper tribunal.

Now my question is:
Can I still submit fresh application in all the possibilites mentioned below? & what date does my 28 days start from?

1. If I decide to go to UTT & don't get permission -
2. If I decide to go to UTT & get permission -
3. If I decide to go to UTT & get refused -

4. What If I DONT decide to go to UTT? -

I'm really stressed as I don't know what is the right course of action at the moment, specially regarding my right to submit fresh application (28 days?)

Kindly reply ASAP you can.

shortdays
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Re: Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

Post by shortdays » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:33 pm

Hi,

54 views without reply..!! I understand it's complicated but have faith in our senior experts... :roll:

rooney0511
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Re: Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

Post by rooney0511 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:20 pm

shortdays wrote:Hi,

54 views without reply..!! I understand it's complicated but have faith in our senior experts... :roll:
You can go to the Upper Tribunal and take your chances or reapply again within 28 days of the FTT decision explaining with a cover letter in detail of the circumstances around your first application.

As the FTT accepted your appeal and given you a full hearing and a decision after that the HO should accept that it was an in time application, therefore they should accept the second application.

This is purely my opinion, If I were you I would definitely go this way.

cpmlkhan
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Re: Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

Post by cpmlkhan » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:33 pm

Hello mate, What was the reason they rejected second time?

shortdays
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Re: Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

Post by shortdays » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:36 pm

Thanks rooney..

Just to add into that, FTT decision letter quotes "At the outset of the appeal hearing, HOPO conceded that the respondent (HOPO) had failed to prove that no fee had been paid in relation to the prior application. Accordingly, I find that the applications were made in-time and there is a right of appeal.

By this, does it mean at the same time I was given confirmation that I'm covered under 3C/3D & still can make fresh application by correcting previous refusal reasons?

I spoke to home office today (this was the starting point of confusion) but felt either their call centre didn't have sufficient info or they were diplomatically trying to scare / confuse me. As per them I'm not an overstayer as long as I go to UTT but once I decided not to do that, then I am overtayer & can't submit fresh application.

shortdays
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Re: Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

Post by shortdays » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:39 pm

cpmlkhan wrote:Hello mate, What was the reason they rejected second time?
No 3rd party bank letter (as No UK Bank provides), no landline number on contract & no advertisement. However, I proved the last two points & were accepted.

rooney0511
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Re: Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

Post by rooney0511 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:54 pm

shortdays wrote:Thanks rooney..

Just to add into that, FTT decision letter quotes "At the outset of the appeal hearing, HOPO conceded that the respondent (HOPO) had failed to prove that no fee had been paid in relation to the prior application. Accordingly, I find that the applications were made in-time and there is a right of appeal.

By this, does it mean at the same time I was given confirmation that I'm covered under 3C/3D & still can make fresh application by correcting previous refusal reasons?

I spoke to home office today (this was the starting point of confusion) but felt either their call centre didn't have sufficient info or they were diplomatically trying to scare / confuse me. As per them I'm not an overstayer as long as I go to UTT but once I decided not to do that, then I am overtayer & can't submit fresh application.

The Judge comment definitely allows that it was an in time application. When you send in the second application send the copy of the judgement highlighting the first paragraph you mentioned here.
They will definitely accept your application but make sure you do it properly as there will be no right of appeal this time.

Do not try and call the HO call center as most of the times they are unaware of the rules and circumstances. You will be more confused than before.

shortdays
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Re: Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

Post by shortdays » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:03 pm

Hi Rooney,

Actually, the ukba call centre did take my details, did some research by keeping me on hold & then spoke to me. would this have any negative impact on my fresh application?

rooney0511
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Re: Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

Post by rooney0511 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:36 pm

Sent you a PM please check

shortdays
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Re: Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

Post by shortdays » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:39 pm

rooney0511 wrote:Sent you a PM please check
can't read your PM aI just registered. what was that about?

Shah05
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Re: Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

Post by Shah05 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:10 pm

@shortdays, I will suggest you to apply UT as many ppl from this forum have won the case in UT. By that time you will get time to prepare your self for new application.

Now 1. If you decide to go to UT and don't get the permission, (appeal right exausts and 3c ends here) in this case once you will receive the confirmation letter from UT you will have 28 days to make a new application.

2. If you get the permission than just focus on winning there. (section 3c continues).

3. If you get refused in UT (3c ends, you can go to JR, but I won't suggest this option),make a fresh application within 28 days.

By applying to UT you are buying time for preparing a new application. So either way just start working on and hope that you go through in UT.

If you don't decide to go to UT than you have 28 days to make a fresh application, if you are ready than go ahead. But if not than u have 5 working days to apply to UT. So better make ur move fast.

Hope this will help.

Olasunkanmi
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Re: Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

Post by Olasunkanmi » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:23 pm

@ shortdays, better apply for permission to appeal at UT and then make necessary plans for your fresh application by correcting the mistakes in your previous application.

From the FTT judgement, you have full appeal right and can submit fresh application within the time given on last decision letter from the tribunal.
The key to success is knowledge and hardwork, and to have faith.

shortdays
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Re: Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

Post by shortdays » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:52 pm

Olasunkanmi wrote:@ shortdays, better apply for permission to appeal at UT and then make necessary plans for your fresh application by correcting the mistakes in your previous application.

From the FTT judgement, you have full appeal right and can submit fresh application within the time given on last decision letter from the tribunal.
@ Olasunkanmi, thanks for this but FTT decision letter doesn't say anything / give timeline about making a fresh application. It only has application form for UT application.

However, earlier received UKBA's 1st refusal letter gave no right of appeal & an option of fresh application (but no timeline) and when I called them today, they had to say that the fresh applicaion option was only valid right after the refusal and not now (because their system showed my application wasn't in-time). As per them, because I went to FTT (& got the right of appeal with full hearing) the only thing I can do is either leave or win at UT. [but they diplomatically din't comment much on FTT confirmation of in-time appeal & the fact that appeal was heard in full)

Would highly appreciate your valued experience on this please.

shortdays
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Re: Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

Post by shortdays » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:53 pm

Shah05 wrote:@shortdays, I will suggest you to apply UT as many ppl from this forum have won the case in UT. By that time you will get time to prepare your self for new application.

Now 1. If you decide to go to UT and don't get the permission, (appeal right exausts and 3c ends here) in this case once you will receive the confirmation letter from UT you will have 28 days to make a new application.

2. If you get the permission than just focus on winning there. (section 3c continues).

3. If you get refused in UT (3c ends, you can go to JR, but I won't suggest this option),make a fresh application within 28 days.

By applying to UT you are buying time for preparing a new application. So either way just start working on and hope that you go through in UT.

If you don't decide to go to UT than you have 28 days to make a fresh application, if you are ready than go ahead. But if not than u have 5 working days to apply to UT. So better make ur move fast.

Hope this will help.
@Shah05, thank you for taking time & giving this clarification.

Zaidii
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Re: Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

Post by Zaidii » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:03 pm

[quote="Shah05"]@shortdays, I will suggest you to apply UT as many ppl from this forum have won the case in UT. By that time you will get time to prepare your self for new application.

Now 1. If you decide to go to UT and don't get the permission, (appeal right exausts and 3c ends here) in this case once you will receive the confirmation letter from UT you will have 28 days to make a new application.

@shah

Just to clarify on above
If you don't get permission from FTT to go to UT,
Don't you get another 7 days to go to UT directly and your 3c extends at that stage?

Shah05
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Re: Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

Post by Shah05 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:37 am

@zaidii
Of course, the process is apply to UT through FT, if denied from FT directly aplply to UT, ur 3c will continue but I just kept in short if in case u still don't get permission in UT than....3c ends here.

Olasunkanmi
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Re: Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

Post by Olasunkanmi » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:31 am

""However, earlier received UKBA's 1st refusal letter gave no right of appeal & an option of fresh application (but no timeline) and when I called them today, they had to say that the fresh applicaion option was only valid right after the refusal and not now (because their system showed my application wasn't in-time). As per them, because I went to FTT (& got the right of appeal with full hearing) the only thing I can do is either leave or win at UT. [but they diplomatically din't comment much on FTT confirmation of in-time appeal & the fact that appeal was heard in full)

Would highly appreciate your valued experience on this please.[/quote]""


Since you got appeal right at the tribunal, the implication for HO is that they have to update your file to include full right of appeal in the first refusal, they probably havent update it yet, but your appeal letter is proof that you can make fresh application. Make sure you send covering letter with the appeal right letter given by tribunal with any future application.
The key to success is knowledge and hardwork, and to have faith.

sky100
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Re: Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

Post by sky100 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:25 am

I have a question. Can one make a fresh application within 28 days after permission to appeal was refused by the court of appeal?

cpmlkhan
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Re: Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

Post by cpmlkhan » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:43 pm

sky100 wrote:I have a question. Can one make a fresh application within 28 days after permission to appeal was refused by the court of appeal?
Yes certainly you can

sheikh123
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Re: Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

Post by sheikh123 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:49 pm

shah can u explain plz first u have write FT for write to go UT, if they give u right then ur 3c is still continuos, but if FT is refuse permission for UT in that case 3C is still continuous? plz give me ur opinion briefly.

Olasunkanmi
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Location: London, UK.

Re: Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

Post by Olasunkanmi » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:26 am

sheikh123 wrote:shah can u explain plz first u have write FT for write to go UT, if they give u right then ur 3c is still continuos, but if FT is refuse permission for UT in that case 3C is still continuous? plz give me ur opinion briefly.
@ Sheikh123, your section 3C extension of leave continues until your appeal is concluded or abandoned. This implies that until you exhaust all your appeal right, your section 3C continues. Section 3C will stops if the ffg happen;
(1) Your appeal is allowed and HO issue your visa.
(2) Your appeal is refused/dismissed and you then submit fresh application, in this case section 3C stops on the assume date of receipt of tribunal decision.
(3) If you decide to withdraw your application in writing, then section 3C stops on the date on your request letter once the tribunal accept your request. If you request to withdraw on the hearing day then section 3C stops on same day except if you change your mind to re-instate your appeal within 30days, in which case your section 3C continues again.
The key to success is knowledge and hardwork, and to have faith.

searoze
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Re: Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

Post by searoze » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:40 am

shortdays wrote:
Now my question is:
Can I still submit fresh application in all the possibilites mentioned below? & what date does my 28 days start from?

1. If I decide to go to UTT & don't get permission -
2. If I decide to go to UTT & get permission -
3. If I decide to go to UTT & get refused -

4. What If I DONT decide to go to UTT? -
If your appeal to 1st Tier Tribunal is dismissed then you can lodge your next appeal for permission to appeal to the Upper tribunal with in 5 working days of decision from 1st Tier Tribunal.
While your appeal is due to accept or reject from ''permission to appeal to the Upper tribunal'' you can make a fresh application and withdraw your appeal. This way your long residence should be fine.
Either way, if your make fresh application & withdraw your appeal from upper tribunal or go for appeal to upper tribunal, your long residence will not affect (Unless you filed your Tier 1 application out of your previous leave to remain or take any longer than allowed period to lodge your appeal).

"To prevent applicants from becoming overstayers through no fault of their
own, section 11 of the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 introduced an amended Section 3C into the Immigration Act 1971.
Section 3C extends leave when a person with leave to enter or remain makes an in time application.

That is one made before their leave expires, but one in which their leave expires
Before a decision on that application is reached.

If a person has 3C leave, and their application is refused, 3C leave continues until
their appeal rights are exhausted. Section 3C only applies to in time applications.
If a person submits an out of time application, they will have a gap in continuous lawful residence, from the date their leave expired until the date they are next granted leave, regardless of how long it takes for the decision to be made
For an example of this, see example 5 in related link: Examples of continuous lawful residence
"
See Page 24
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

To lodge appeals to 1st Tier Tribunal

"Time limits for submitting an appeal
If you are in the United Kingdom:

Your appeal form must reach us:

if you are in detention - within 5 working days from the day you received the notice of decision; or
if you are not in detention - within 10 working days from the day you received the notice of decision"

Source: http://www.justice.gov.uk/tribunals/imm ... um/appeals


"Applying for Permission to Appeal to the Upper Tribunal"

Either party to an appeal can apply for permission to appeal the decision of the First-tier Tribunal to the Upper Tribunal. The initial application must be made to the First-tier Tribunal. If this application is refused then a further application can be made to the Upper Tribunal.
Applying to the First-tier Tribunal for Permission to Appeal to the Upper Tribunal

The First-tier Tribunal will provide a copy of the First-tier Permission Application form with promulgated decisions as appropriate. This form should be completed and lodged with the Tribunal no later than five working days after the date the decision was served on you. (The time limit is 28 days if you are outside the UK and 2 working days if the case is a fast-track case). The application will be considered by a Judge of the First-tier Tribunal, who will decide whether to grant permission to appeal to the Upper Tribunal.

It is important to include with your permission application the decision of the Tribunal you wish to challenge along with the full reasons why you think the Tribunal made an error of law"


Source: http://www.justice.gov.uk/tribunals/imm ... er/appeals
Mistakes are the portals of discovery.
Please correct me if am wrong

shortdays
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Re: Confusion on Fresh Application Right / 28 Days

Post by shortdays » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:34 pm

Hi All,

Here's an update. Just received the letter dated 24.02.14 from FTT notifying that they refuse the permission to go to UTT.

Considering the unique situation with initial appeal right with my application (please see my first post for history),

Can I still submit fresh application?
If yest, 28 Days start from which date (24/02 or 1st refusal from FTT dated 03/02)?

What would be my deadline to submit fresh application if I can?

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