Germany?

[Corndog]

Hi,
I have two questions, the first probably being fairly obvious.
I have a German passport but live in England and would like to know of any restrictions that I might have with regards to working and living in Germany.
And my second question is regarding a friend of mine who is a US citizen who is thinking about joining me on my adventure. I would like to know of the rules for americans with regards to living and working in Germany. I.e how long they can stay on a visitors visa and whether they need a work permit etc
thanks

[sakura]

Hi,
I have two questions, the first probably being fairly obvious.
I have a German passport but live in England and would like to know of any restrictions that I might have with regards to working and living in Germany.
And my second question is regarding a friend of mine who is a US citizen who is thinking about joining me on my adventure. I would like to know of the rules for americans with regards to living and working in Germany. I.e how long they can stay on a visitors visa and whether they need a work permit etc
thanks

Am I reading this right? Why on this good green earth would you think you, as a citizen (national) would be restricted in your own country? Unless Germany has some funky-mule system that I don't know about.

Simple ansnwer - no, no restrictions (unless you want a job with the government, which might have its own strict residency rules). Aren't you a German national (ever lived in Germany??!)?!

My goodness me! Is immigration really that complex!

As for your friend....this person is just a friend? S/he can enter Germany as a visitor but would not be able to work - they'd need some sort of work permit, and, from what I've been reading, it doesn't look easy. How long can they stay? Someone else can help you out; I think it's a little tricky in the Schengen area vis-a-vis Visa-Waiver nationals. But s/he definately cannot work whilst a tourist.

[JAJ]

Hi,
I have two questions, the first probably being fairly obvious.
I have a German passport but live in England and would like to know of any restrictions that I might have with regards to working and living in Germany.

None. As a German you can go home any time you like.

However, if you're not also a British citizen you should be aware that the option of naturalisation will be closed once you leave. In particular, bear that in mind if you have lived a long time in the United Kingdom.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I would be careful in considering UK naturalization in this case. If you naturalize as a UK citizen you will likely loose your German citizenship.

[Corndog]

oops, I created a new topic when in fact I just wanted to reply.

Again,
what does naturalization mean? and what benefits would I have, or what would be the purpose? Is there a certain amount of time I have to have stayed outside the country for them to take this right away from me? Or is it if I apply for citizenship somewhere else?

[Christophe]

naturalization mean? and what benefits would I have, or what would be the purpose? Is there a certain amount of time I have to have stayed outside the country for them to take this right away from me? Or is it if I apply for citizenship somewhere else?

Naturalisation (or naturalization) is simply the process by which a non-citizen becomes a citizen and gains the rights and duties of citizenship, the same as "natural"-born citizens.

In your case, it seems to me that the advantages of naturalising as a British citizen would be:

• - you would have an uncontested right to enter the UK and live and work in the UK. (As a German citizen, you do have a right to live and work in the UK, although this right is not absolute - having said that, in practical terms at present, it almost might as well be absolute, and only in very unusual circumstances would a German citizen be denied entry or deported; however, there is no guarantee that at some time in the future, immigration controls could not be re-imposed on EU/EEA citizens, unlikely as that seems at present)
  
  - you would be able to sponsor family/spouse/partner to live in the UK under the British immigration rules rather than pursuant to EU treaties, which can be advantageous in some ways
  
  - you would be able to vote in Westminster elections, stand for parliament, be called for jury service, and take up civil service and other posts denied to non-British (or non-British/non-Commonwealth) citizens
  
  - depending on how you see yourself in relation to the UK and where you see your future, you would be fully a part of the UK as a British citizen in the way that you probably are not as a German citizen living in the UK: how important this is to you is up to you decide, but it is not an aspect of naturalisation that ought to be derided (as it sometimes is) - it is important to many people

The main disadvantage that I can see is that you would probably lose your German citizenship as a result of German law.

Others may well be able to think of other reasons for and against your naturalising as a British citizen.

[Corndog]

So does this mean that I can only be a citizen of one country? I was born in the UK but have never had a UK passport. I did realize that I was only allowed to vote for the local elections and not the national ones.

[Christophe]

So does this mean that I can only be a citizen of one country?

That depends on the countries involved and the circumstances.

I was born in the UK but have never had a UK passport. I did realize that I was only allowed to vote for the local elections and not the national ones.

You may be a British citizen already. When were you born? If born in 1983 or after, was one of your parents a British citizen or otherwise deemed to be "settled" in the UK?

[Corndog]

I was born in the UK in 1984 and my Father is Irish and my mother is German, they have both lived England for over 20 years.

[Christophe]

I was born in the UK in 1984 and my Father is Irish and my mother is German, they have both lived England for over 20 years.

I would think, then, that, if your parents were married, you are a British citizen from birth, because birth in in the UK in 1984 to an Irish citizen parent confers British citizenship.

If I am correct - and others will correct me if I'm wrong - then you can't naturalise as a British citizen since you are one already, and you can simply apply for a British passport if you want to. I don't believe that applying for a passport of a country you already hold the citizenship of would affect your German citizenship, but you might want to check that.

As I say, there will be someone along here to corroborate what I have said or correct it, I am sure.

[Corndog]

Thanks. I just don't want to lose any of my rights that I have. And want to know if I have the same rights in Germany as in the UK. On a seperate note, what is the maximum amount of passports you are allowed to have, and are they all linked. What I mean by this is say I was refused entry somewhere on one, could I try again on another?

[Christophe]

Thanks. I just don't want to lose any of my rights that I have. And want to know if I have the same rights in Germany as in the UK. On a seperate note, what is the maximum amount of passports you are allowed to have, and are they all linked. What I mean by this is say I was refused entry somewhere on one, could I try again on another?

You can have as many passports as the countries you are a citizen of. Countries that allow dual citizenship are not usually worried about multiple citizenship. However, not all countries allow dual citizenship, and others allow it only in some circumstances.

As to whether passports are linked: not generally per se, but many countries would make the link based on the personal details contained in the passports (name, date of birth, etc). Do you have a specific situation in mind when you ask about being refused entry?

As to rights - the rights you have in Germany as a German citizen depend primarily on German law; the rights you have in the UK as a British citizen (which it seems as if you are, albeit unknowingly) depend primarily on British law; the rights you have in the one country as the citizen of the other depend partly on national law and partly on EU law and treaties. Again, do you have anything specific in mind when you ask about losing rights?

[Corndog]

With regards to the refusal question, there is nothing specific. I was just think if I could say go to a country that required a visa and had a 90 day limit, and then return on the other one for an additional 90 days.
As to losing my rights, I'm just really unsure of whether I am a German citizen or an English one, or both.

[Christophe]

With regards to the refusal question, there is nothing specific. I was just think if I could say go to a country that required a visa and had a 90 day limit, and then return on the other one for an additional 90 days.

That would depend on how competently the country in question kept records and how assiduously the records were applied at the point of entry. Whether it would be legal or not would be dubious in many cases, even if it were possible in practice.

As to losing my rights, I'm just really unsure of whether I am a German citizen or an English one, or both.

I think you are probably both. If you are a British citizen (not an English citizen, and it seems as if you are a British citizen), you can simply apply for a British passport (with the relevant documentation). Germany is not relaxed about dual citizenship for its citizens; what I don't know is whether applying for a British passport would mean an automatic loss of your German citizenship: my suspicion is not, but you would want to be certain, I imagine, one way or the other before you made any such move. Again, someone is likely to be along here who can answer that question.

However, an article on German nationality law in Wikipedia suggests that there would be no problem: to quote in part, it says "Persons who are Germans on the basis of descent from a German parent do not have to apply to retain German citizenship by age 23. If they acquire another citizenship at birth, they can usually continue to hold this." The second sentence of that quote, if it is correct, suggests that you are and always have been both a German and a British citizen.

Just to add further the the mix, you are probably also an Irish citizen, through your Irish parent. Ireland would have no problem with your holding British and German citizenship, so if the statement in the article above is correct (but it would need to be verified), then you are probably a triple national.

[Corndog]

I thought I was a triple national, but have also been told that I can only have one or two passports. I'm just weighing up my options. Thanks for your help.

[Christophe]

I thought I was a triple national, but have also been told that I can only have one or two passports.

That is definitely not true. In your case, as noted above, I think the question of how many nationalities you hold (and therefore how many passports you can have) hinges on the German view of things: two (British and Irish) or three (British, Irish and German).

[sakura]

I thought I was a triple national, but have also been told that I can only have one or two passports. I'm just weighing up my options. Thanks for your help.

In truth, whilst you may be entitled to apply for all these passports, it might not be necessary. If you want to live/work/study in the EU/EEA, then any one of those passports will do.

If you're planning on doing something dodgy like fly to the US on one passport, leave and then return immediately using another one- as mentioned before they might not flag anything up, but if they take your prints, you'd be busted. Just cos you ain't muslim-looking doesn't mean you should abuse your position (if you get what I mean), or the rules. That said.....this is a tricky rule so it's best to find out what the country's respective governments say about this. Just don't put a step wrong before you know it is legally ok'd.

You can have 10 nationalities if you want - as long as each nation recognises dual (or more) nationalities. e.g. if you were to take up Japanese nationality, you would have to renounce all your other nationalities. So you must check this German nationality requirement before applying.

Being dual (or more) nationalities can be good and bad. If you were, say, a US and British citizen, clearly more windows of opportunities allow you to live in the EU/EEA and the US freely. Being a national of 3 EU countries may not seem as "cool", until election time, unless some other EU countries have visa-waiver programs that others don't (e.g. going to country X with passport A allows only 30 days visa-free compared to 90 days on the other passport/s). The bad thing is if you had to pay tax even when working outside the country, and maybe to both (or more) nations. I think the UK works like that, no? Or is it the US...

However, it seems in this day and age it is advantageous to be a dual (or more) national.

[JAJ]

I would think, then, that, if your parents were married, you are a British citizen from birth, because birth in in the UK in 1984 to an Irish citizen parent confers British citizenship.

Even if parents were never married, he is still a British citizen automatically as in 1984 (right up until October 2000), German citizens were considered to be "settled" in the United Kingdom. Except special cases like diplomats or visiting forces.

He is also an Irish citizen by descent, assuming father was born in Ireland.

I don't believe that applying for a passport of a country you already hold the citizenship of would affect your German citizenship, but you might want to check that.

As far as I know, it is not a problem.

[JAJ]

The bad thing is if you had to pay tax even when working outside the country, and maybe to both (or more) nations. I think the UK works like that, no? Or is it the US...

The United Kingdom does not work like that. The United States does, although there are foreign income exclusions and foreign tax credits.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I know of one person who is a citizen of four countries because of where she was born and the citizenships of her parents. It is not even all that uncommon. She can move pretty much where ever she wants.

There is particular limit to the number of citizenships you can have (and for each you can, if you want, have a passport). Each country has it's own rules for what they allow and what they don't. If it is confusing for one country, it is four times more confusing with four countries!

[Christophe]

Even if parents were never married, he is still a British citizen automatically as in 1984 (right up until October 2000), German citizens were considered to be "settled" in the United Kingdom. Except special cases like diplomats or visiting forces.

Yes, that is absolutely true.

[sakura]

The bad thing is if you had to pay tax even when working outside the country, and maybe to both (or more) nations. I think the UK works like that, no? Or is it the US...

The United Kingdom does not work like that. The United States does, although there are foreign income exclusions and foreign tax credits.

Does Germany work like that?

[Dawie]

If you're planning on doing something dodgy like fly to the US on one passport, leave and then return immediately using another one- as mentioned before they might not flag anything up, but if they take your prints, you'd be busted.

There is absolutely nothing legally preventing you from using one passport to enter and leave the USA and then using another one to do the same again. As long as you always leave the USA with the same passport that you entered on you will be OK.

[sakura]

If you're planning on doing something dodgy like fly to the US on one passport, leave and then return immediately using another one- as mentioned before they might not flag anything up, but if they take your prints, you'd be busted.

There is absolutely nothing legally preventing you from using one passport to enter and leave the USA and then using another one to do the same again. As long as you always leave the USA with the same passport that you entered on you will be OK.

Hmm...so I can hold 3 passports and spend x number of days in the US, visit Canada/Mexico and then come back the very next day, using a different passport?
As long as this is clearly written....where are my passports!

I hadn't assumed it wasn't possible, just thought it might be a grey area and a new "test case law" or something. I did assume, though, that VWPs applied per person, not per nationality - i.e. physical presence.

Well....who'd really want to be a visitor for so many months anyway?

[JAJ]

Hmm...so I can hold 3 passports and spend x number of days in the US, visit Canada/Mexico and then come back the very next day, using a different passport?
As long as this is clearly written....where are my passports!

I hadn't assumed it wasn't possible, just thought it might be a grey area and a new "test case law" or something. I did assume, though, that VWPs applied per person, not per nationality - i.e. physical presence.

Leaving the United States to go to Canada, Mexico, Bermuda or an adjacent island does not reset the period of admission as a tourist.

As to whether you can leave the U.S. to return to Britain, and then go back to the U.S. on a different passport. In theory you can, but your details are logged based on your name, birthplace and if the Immigration Officer discovers you have only just left and are returning on a different passport, you may be due for a "difficult" conversation.