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Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Only for UK Student Visas, formerly known as Tier 4 (General) student visa

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westwood
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Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by westwood » Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:43 pm

Hello Guys,

Please can someone tell me if my situation exceeds the 8 year limit? I did Bachelor for 3 years, master for 1 year, CIMA (Level 7) for another year. From letter from UKBA it stated that I have been studied at degree level for 4 years and 8 months. Now I've got a PhD offer which I really would like to take, however is 4 years time (Sep 14- Sep 18). I am just wondering if my CAS states the same will this exceed the 8 year cap? Which of the following would be correct?
1 UKBA will grant my leave for 4 years since its PhD
2 UKBA will refuse my application since it will lead to exceeding of 8 years cap
3 UKBA will grant me the leave to remain but not for the full 4 years, they will only grant the leave to remain to make my time here 8 years

Another question, not related to the above, if my visa is refused and I appeal the decision, and if the appeal is dismissed or I chose to withdraw the appeal, do I have the right to make a fresh application (5 days if it is dismissed or sameday if I withdraw)?

Thanks a lot in advance guys.

shaq1
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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by shaq1 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:14 am

UKBA will issue you visa for 4 years as you are applying for Phd program of a University.

westwood
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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by westwood » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:34 pm

shaq1 wrote:UKBA will issue you visa for 4 years as you are applying for Phd program of a University.
So the 8 years' cap is only for after PhD I suppose? Thank you shaq1. :)

shaq1
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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by shaq1 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:28 pm

As you are going to study Phd so you will not fall under the 8 years cap.

westwood
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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by westwood » Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:26 pm

shaq1 wrote:As you are going to study Phd so you will not fall under the 8 years cap.
Thank you shaq1

I got confused because someone has posted
'87. In addition to the 3 years of permitted study below degree level for Tier 4 (General) students and any time spent in the Tier 4 (Child) category, the time that a Tier 4 student can spend studying at or above degree level will be limited to 5 years, except in the following circumstances:
• Those Tier 4 (General) students studying for a PhD at a Recognised Body or at an HEI providing that on completion of the PhD, the time spent in Tier 4 (General) student category will not exceed 8 years. If, as a result of the application for an extension of leave, the time spent in the category would exceed 8 years, the extension application will be refused.'
Then I went to check the latest Tier 4 policy guidance which states
'105. The time that you can spend studying at or above degree level is limited to five years
unless:
you are studying an acceptable Post-Graduate research qualification which
is listed in Annex 6 of this guidance and is being studied at and awarded by a
Recognised Body or an HEI. If by the time you complete that Post-Graduate
Research qualification, the time you have spent studying in the UK at or above
degree level exceeds eight years, then we will not grant you any further leave in
this category.'
I guess this is just like what you said, as long as I will do a PhD it is not limited in the 8 years cap, after the completion of PhD if the time spent is over 8 years then I will not be grant any further leave under Tier 4.

Do you have any idea with my 2nd question which is
if my visa is refused and I appeal the decision, and if the appeal is dismissed or I chose to withdraw the appeal, do I have the right to make a fresh application (5 days if it is dismissed or sameday if I withdraw)?
? Thank you very much again.

quantum1
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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by quantum1 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:00 pm

shaq1 wrote:As you are going to study Phd so you will not fall under the 8 years cap.
not sure if this is correct given:
'87. In addition to the 3 years of permitted study below degree level for Tier 4 (General) students and any time spent in the Tier 4 (Child) category, the time that a Tier 4 student can spend studying at or above degree level will be limited to 5 years, except in the following circumstances:
• Those Tier 4 (General) students studying for a PhD at a Recognised Body or at an HEI providing that on completion of the PhD, the time spent in Tier 4 (General) student category will not exceed 8 years. If, as a result of the application for an extension of leave, the time spent in the category would exceed 8 years, the extension application will be refused.'
The author of this post is not an immigration expert. Any statements made are commentary personal opinions and should not be construed as advice.

westwood
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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by westwood » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:55 pm

quantum1 wrote:
shaq1 wrote:As you are going to study Phd so you will not fall under the 8 years cap.
not sure if this is correct given:
'87. In addition to the 3 years of permitted study below degree level for Tier 4 (General) students and any time spent in the Tier 4 (Child) category, the time that a Tier 4 student can spend studying at or above degree level will be limited to 5 years, except in the following circumstances:
• Those Tier 4 (General) students studying for a PhD at a Recognised Body or at an HEI providing that on completion of the PhD, the time spent in Tier 4 (General) student category will not exceed 8 years. If, as a result of the application for an extension of leave, the time spent in the category would exceed 8 years, the extension application will be refused.'
Hi quantum1, thanks for your reply. The statement you quoted is out of dated I believe, in the latest Guidance it states like this:
'105. The time that you can spend studying at or above degree level is limited to five years
unless:
you are studying an acceptable Post-Graduate research qualification which
is listed in Annex 6 of this guidance and is being studied at and awarded by a
Recognised Body or an HEI. If by the time you complete that Post-Graduate
Research qualification, the time you have spent studying in the UK at or above
degree level exceeds eight years, then we will not grant you any further leave in
this category.'
I am just not so sure what it means, I hope it means that they will grant the leave for the full course time but if the time I stay here exceeds 8 years after I complete my PhD, I cannot apply for any FURTHER leave under Tier 4.

Ditima98
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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by Ditima98 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:52 pm

See this:

January 2006 to December 2011, on student Visa (6 years)

Jan. 2012 to Dec. 2013, Post study work Visa (2 years)

After post study work, the individual referred to can not study for a 3 years PhD because he has only two years to hit the capping limit of 8 years. So what are the options in Tier 4 for this individual? He/She should try to enrol for a 1 year MBA or less than 2 years MPhil. Note that all the period spent on student visa counts towards the 8 years limit even if you were not pursuing any course while on student visa.

Please ignore the UKCISA website as it is misleading when it says that there is no years limitation for PhD study. Follow UKBA Tier 4 guidelines.

Hope this helps
ditima

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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by Ditima98 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:15 pm

Bro, just to add on, in your case, since you have alraedy done MBA, your only option is MPhil, but this depends on the number of years remaining after having studied for all those programmes. Try and check out for any institution offering a stand alone MPhil of duration in between 1 to 2 years. Avoid MPhil/PhDs, as these are amalgamated study programmes with durations of over 3 years.

Personally I would advise, if you have more than a year remaining as a student, I mean, before you get to 8 years, I would advise you hunt for an MPhil which suits your number of years you still have got,that way, I think you will stand a chance of getting a visa. Avoid Tier 1's Entrepreneurship if you could because that is currently a hot territory to fall for now as the reject rate is very high. Note that these are my personal views from the scant ideas I have by going through Tier 4 guidelines-you can also read through the guidelines -page 90 to 110.
ditima

Ditima98
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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by Ditima98 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:40 pm

Sorry dear, I have just gone through your statement once more and here are my views considering your situation;

You currently have 3 years 2 months remaining b4 you hit the 8 years cap.

Options: Go for a 1 year MBA. You will get a 1 year visa. Once you finish, you can still study for an MPhil programme of not more than 2 years duration.

Alternatively, go all out for a strictly 3 years PhD programme. There are many Unis offering 3 years PhDs and since you have two months extra after three years you would get 3 years 1 month visa. Drop that 4 years offer as it will bring alot of misery on you if you accept it because you will be faced with refusal.

Good lucky!
ditima

westwood
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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by westwood » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:00 am

Ditima98 wrote:Sorry dear, I have just gone through your statement once more and here are my views considering your situation;

You currently have 3 years 2 months remaining b4 you hit the 8 years cap.

Options: Go for a 1 year MBA. You will get a 1 year visa. Once you finish, you can still study for an MPhil programme of not more than 2 years duration.

Alternatively, go all out for a strictly 3 years PhD programme. There are many Unis offering 3 years PhDs and since you have two months extra after three years you would get 3 years 1 month visa. Drop that 4 years offer as it will bring alot of misery on you if you accept it because you will be faced with refusal.

Good lucky!
Dear Ditima98,
Thank you very much for the full detail, but I don't think I can do a MBA since it is NQF level 7 degree level, so it should be in the 5 years cap. I use to think that I can only go for a PhD coz MPhil is NQF 7 as well, after go through the latest 10/13 Tier 4 guidance looks like MPhil would do as well. I will discuss with university regarding this problem today. Thank you again man.

shaq1
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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by shaq1 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:45 am

Sorry Westwood I have followed UKCISA's explanation regarding 8 years cap and made the mistake as stated by Ditima98. But further doing my research (which will definitely help me in future) you should follow the advice given by Ditima98.

westwood
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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by westwood » Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:09 pm

Thanks guys, I will make the application tmr and will update this thread

Greenie
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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by Greenie » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:57 am

The ukcisa guidance is correct. You are misreading the tier 4 guidance. The 8 year cap only applies of you apply fumble further leave under tier 4 after you have completed your PHD

westwood
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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by westwood » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:47 am

Greenie wrote:The ukcisa guidance is correct. You are misreading the tier 4 guidance. The 8 year cap only applies of you apply fumble further leave under tier 4 after you have completed your PHD
Thank you very much Greenie, i will make the application. However my previous application got refused I am not sure that if I can make the fresh application in 10 working days of refusal in the UK, and if I do make the application will I be protected under 3c/3d during application? If somehow my new application got refused again will I be banned for 1 year? :cry:

Ditima98
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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by Ditima98 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:17 am

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/services/inte ... ap_on/#phd

SEE QUESTION BELOW EXTRACTED FROM THE LINK ABOVE:

I have completed a 3 year Undegraduate degree and a one year Masters in the UK, now I want to do a PhD, will this come under the same study limit?


No. PhD and Research Masters taught at NQF level 8 are exempt from the five year study limit. You should however be aware of the eight year study limit which may apply to you if you studied a Research Masters which appears on the Home Office list of acceptable Postagraduate Research qualifications.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
hi, Indeed, Greenie is right. The eight year cap limit is applicable to research masters such as MPhil and Masters of Research-see the above link. As for PhD, as long as you have been offered a place and CAS given, you can go for it as long as you have not been on student visa for over 8 years. I mean, lets say you have been on a student visa for seven years and there after you enrol for PhD, you will be given a visa but at the end of your programme you can not apply based on Tier 4 again.

My sincere apologies, I missed this point-these things are just too confusing. So under your circumstances, I am sure you will be given a visa under PhD. By the way, why was your initial application rejected?

Now regarding your re-applying, did you appeal after your refusal? Someone told me that the best way to handle your scenario, is to appeal then latter on withdraw your appeal and submit fresh application the same day of appeal withdraw.
ditima

westwood
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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by westwood » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:31 pm

Ditima98 wrote:http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/services/inte ... ap_on/#phd

SEE QUESTION BELOW EXTRACTED FROM THE LINK ABOVE:

I have completed a 3 year Undegraduate degree and a one year Masters in the UK, now I want to do a PhD, will this come under the same study limit?


No. PhD and Research Masters taught at NQF level 8 are exempt from the five year study limit. You should however be aware of the eight year study limit which may apply to you if you studied a Research Masters which appears on the Home Office list of acceptable Postagraduate Research qualifications.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
hi, Indeed, Greenie is right. The eight year cap limit is applicable to research masters such as MPhil and Masters of Research-see the above link. As for PhD, as long as you have been offered a place and CAS given, you can go for it as long as you have not been on student visa for over 8 years. I mean, lets say you have been on a student visa for seven years and there after you enrol for PhD, you will be given a visa but at the end of your programme you can not apply based on Tier 4 again.

My sincere apologies, I missed this point-these things are just too confusing. So under your circumstances, I am sure you will be given a visa under PhD. By the way, why was your initial application rejected?

Now regarding your re-applying, did you appeal after your refusal? Someone told me that the best way to handle your scenario, is to appeal then latter on withdraw your appeal and submit fresh application the same day of appeal withdraw.
Hi Ditima,
It's ok, it's really confusing anyway. I made application yesterday without appeal, so I guess I overstayed. I consulted two solicitors they both recommended me to appeal and then make application on the day of withdraw but that was when I was unsure if I can amend my PhD offer to earlier start from Autumn start. The Uni agreed and I got new CAS and the solicitors told me that in 10 days of appeal right time I'm protected by 3c so if I make new application I'm fine. I found out they were wrong after I submitted the application so what can I do. Called UKBA yesterday they told me that if I make new application I'm overstaying from the day I got my refusal letter, sigh. Hope it will not affect future visa/ILR.
I was refused coz I made application for a non research course which they count in the 5 year cap regardless of NQF level.
Thx a lot Ditima for all ur help, I'll keep this thread updated.

Ditima98
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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by Ditima98 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:20 pm

Sorry and sad to hear about the mixed misleading statements from your Solicitors. I am in the same boot as yours, I was too, mis-led on a number of technicalities which comes with re-submission after refusal but despatched the papers still. Further, despite having given her (Solicitor) all the documentations needed and paid for her services two days after receiving the refusal letter, she submitted the Appeal request some 13 days there after disregarding the 10 days requirement to do so.

Your case is very similar to mine, only that your Uni people were understanding and acted fast to help-mine were very reluctant and it took over a month to convince them to help me with a fresh CAS number. What beats me is that Unis are supposed to know these issues and advise on the pit-falls before enrolling someone but a number of them out there are not on top of all these new changes, and when things do not work out positively on the part of a student, they grow cold feeted, reluctant to help.

Inspite of all the draw backs, we hope for the best so that we can finish our courses and move on. All the best and wishing you well.

We can talk more if you gave me your contact email address............................
ditima

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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by Greenie » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:45 pm

OP:

1: when did you receive your refusal?
2. When does your new course start?
3. How much money did you show for maintenance?

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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by Ditima98 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:26 am

Att: Greenie

Greenie-thanks for your valuable input, could I just come in on this issue-in my case my Solicitor put in the Appeal on the 13th day (instead of within 10 days) after I received the refusal letter, was the appeal valid or will I have problems with UKBA? The courts accepted the appeal, but I'm worried UKBA may pick on this.
ditima

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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by Greenie » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:30 am

are you absolutely sure they appealed on the 13th day? you realise that only working days count?

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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by Ditima98 » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:50 am

Thanks Greenie, its very reassuring for me to hear that its only working days which counts, I should be safe in this area then-thanks, greatly appreciated.

I have few more questions, I would be very, very grateful to get a feedback from you or anybody else with knowledge on this issue.

I'm to clock ten years in January 2016, so as at now I still have got about 1 year 9 months to go which is a very tall order.

I'm coming from PSW visa and currently on an MPhil course which ends this coming Dec. I have had numerous problems getting a Visa on Tier 4 but anyway to cut the long story short, if all goes on well with my re-submission, I will be given a Visa which extends up to Dec 2014 at which my programme of study ends. By this time, I will be remaining with 1 full year to attain 10 years long stay. Please note that by Dec 2014, I will have clocked 7 years on student Visa and 2 years PSW, totalling 9 years.

What would be your advise, which way would be the safest to get to 10 years. I was previously banking on applying based on my daughter who is clocking 7 years in the UK in July 2014 but someone above disclosed that, the 7 seven year rule is only meant for single parents with a sole responsibility on the kids-I'm living with my wife who is dependant upon my Visa and HO are fully aware about that. Note that by December 2014, I will only be remaining with one 1 year to study as I would have already used up 7 years by then. So which way now, I'm so close and yet too far, because of all these restrictions such as capping limits!!

Please help, your input on my scenario will be greatly appreciated.
ditima

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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by shaq1 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:24 am

You can go for the PhD with some University.

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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by Ditima98 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:09 am

Thanks for the feedback. So u mean there will be no trouble (HO refusal) for me having a go at PHD despite clocking 7 years on student visa by December? Sorry, for being inquisitive, I just want to be sure so that I should avoid making similar mistakes I did make with previous applications.
ditima

shaq1
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Re: Regarding 8 Years Cap and Visa Refusal

Post by shaq1 » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:01 am

PhD is out of that 8 years cap limit. So you can apply for a PhD program with a University. Don't worry the Uni will not issue you the CAS if they think you are over your time cap.

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