A quick question or two!

Post by **Obie** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:55 pm

Your perseverance and steadfastness is beginning to pay off. I am truly pleased for you. I hope Ann is feeling better now, too. The positive responses you got would have cheered her up for sure.

The flight reservation demand was unbelievable and frankly speaking illegal , considering your EU status, but i suppose they are trying to ensure you do not use their visa to travel to another member state before theirs.

I am truly stunned by the Bulgarian consulate response. Why do you have to do it in Europe? why could they not have just issued it right there and then. The consulate in some member state tend to refuse to issue a visa if you are not resident in the member state you are applying from.

If there is no facility in the Philippines, they should send it to the nearby processing country and get it sorted.

Sorry about the transport mess. This is the trouble one faces with transportation in some third world countries. I am sure the next time you go there you will be better prepared for these inconveniences.

Have a good one, and once more, i wish you every success with you application.

andy and ann · Post by **andy and ann** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:30 pm

Today wasn't quite as fruitful, a bit of a disaster in fact

We had the application with the 'clerk' and there were a number of things wrong. Firstly, I thought that a Schengen visa was valid for 90 days. It seems it can be any length? The flights that I reserved were for just 2 weeks. I simply assumed that we would automatically get a 90 day visa.

So the clerk saw the dates and questioned it. My response was that I wanted a return flight for my wife soon after arriving in case she wasn't happy there. I told him that I could change the flights, and got a funny look.

I had told them we would be staying at my friends. We had to fill in the section of where we will be staying and I said at her aunt's, another funny look

Unfortunately, we didn't and still don't have any details, but they want the address and phone numbers to contact her. We can email it by tomorrow but she is not online and that is the only way we can get through to her.

So there you have it! We 'might' get the visa, but it might only be valid for 2 weeks now!

I have to email them why I would want it for longer. I already told the lady who will decide it about my Bulgarian plans so I will mention this.

nightmare!

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:37 pm

andy and ann wrote:So there you have it! We 'might' get the visa, but it might only be valid for 2 weeks now!

Will it be valid on the day you intend to enter Schengen?

andy and ann · Post by **andy and ann** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:41 pm

Hi Benifa, well it will be cutting it fine. So I would imagine that if I have just one week left that she won't be allowed on the flight without a return ticket.

I guess thats my big fear

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:46 pm

andy and ann wrote:Hi Benifa, well it will be cutting it fine. So I would imagine that if I have just one week left that she won't be allowed on the flight without a return ticket.

I guess thats my big fear

Doesn't matter. Possession of a valid Schengen visa may be a condition of entry, but it is not a condition of residence. The Schengen visa needs to be valid at the time of entry only.

Post by **Obie** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:47 pm

Why did you tell them, she will be there for 2 weeks.? you don't need a return ticket or explanation of your plans to them at all. The application clearly explains this.

You should have told them, you intend to exercise treaty right and that it is your right to have your wife, exercising it with you. You don't need to even provide an address. You saw the standard form i sent you.There should be no formality attached to the first three months of stay.

I think you should have insisted on the Bulgarian and Polish consulate, to make provision for your wife's visa to be processed in the nearest neighboring country.

It is because the visa is free of charge, so they don't feel the need to get it processed for you speedily. What if you don't have any intentions of traveling to another EU country and just want to transit there to Bulgaria.

These people get to me sometimes. Did you not get to see the nice lady you met yesterday. I also hope they did not ask you to pay for it.

I understand, that the visa only makes provision for entry, but for them to request a return ticket is unbelievable.

andy and ann · Post by **andy and ann** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:00 pm

Hi again Benifa

I know that, and you know that.... But look at what is happening with the people that should know how to process the application!

Hi Obie

I didn't get to meet the nice lady again today, but it is her that will say yes or no. Unfortunately, when we spoke yesterday she would not budge on the requirements of the flights or accomodation. Unfortunately, when we were at the travel agents trying to 'reserve' flights the woman wasn't very competent and we ended up with flights to and from The Netherlands for 2 weeks.

It is me that is worried that they will require a return ticket when we depart from The Philippines, therefore denying my wife from boarding.

When we met with the nice lady yesterday, we had to meet her again later that day. She said that she had just read the treaty, and as I say she would not budge on it

I will have to give a full update on what the Germans need, I think I will do another thread for that one. That is just crazy.

Post by **Obie** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:16 pm

Their behaviour is quite crazy and erratic, and i am confident that if your pursue them you will win, but time is of the essence in your case, therefore i will reluctantly suggest you sing to their tune.

Why are the Polish and Bulgarian refusing to take application from Philippines and sending it for processing in Jakarta or Bangkok.

I think it is unacceptable and time wasting for them to tell you to get it done in Europe. What if you don't have any plans of staying in another EU country.

Has your wife been to the seminar? is there a requirement that she should have a return ticket or else will not be allowed to board a flight.

andy and ann · Post by **andy and ann** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:29 pm

After the visa application today, we decided to come back home. There is a job to do with the marriage certificate at the Bulgarian embassy but we kind of lost heart in it all.

When we were at the Bulgarian embassy she said that she used to issue visas until Bulgaria joined the EU countries. The Polish and Bulgarian embassies told us that we had to go to different Asian countries for the visa. I just decided that it would be better to do it in Europe once we had the Schengen.

My wife would have gone to the seminar, but as I say, we lost heart and came back home. I will begin writing my letter to them and see what you think to it.

andy and ann · Post by **andy and ann** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

sorry- its a biggy!

Dear Sir/Madam,

Further to our application interview today regarding my wifeâ€™s Schengen visa I am writing as requested to give you the further information which you require.

Unfortunately we have yet been unable to contact my wifeâ€™s aunt for her full contact details, I am sure you will understand that in this information age my wife just uses instant messaging/email to keep in contact with her. She has emailed her for the details but we cannot be sure when she will go online and read the email. Her email address is ******** if you wish to contact her that way. Once we get the details we will forward them to you immediately. We are sorry for any inconvenience that this causes, but as the footnote on page 1 of the application states, because my wife is married to an EU national this question does not need to be filled in. This is why we had not prepared the contact details before submitting the application.

I would just like to explain to you that although we have booked flights that return back to The Philippines in just two weeks we would like to apply for a 90 day Schengen visa. The reason for this is because my wife is 2 months pregnant and it is her first time to leave the country, I want to be sure that we are able to return to The Philippines if she is unhappy there in anyway. As you will understand, the health of both my wife and our unborn baby is of paramount importance to me.

I would just like to clarify now our reasons for going to Europe. It is our intention to move to Bulgaria but unfortunately the Bulgarian consulate here does not issue visas and we were advised to go to either Vietnam or Japan. It would be pointless for us to travel to either of these countries when we could easily apply for the visa once we enter Europe. I lived in Bulgaria from May 2007 to Oct 2008, immediately prior to coming to The Philippines. I am proficient in the Bulgarian language and plan to exercise my treaty rights there with my wife so that we will be free to then enter the UK under the â€˜Surinder Singhâ€™ judgment.

I am sure that you will agree that the time scale with regard to our plans is of paramount importance, my wife is currently 2 months pregnant and we are hoping to be in Bulgaria within one month. The official that we met at the Bulgarian embassy informed us we could get the Bulgarian visa within 3 working days. I will exercise my treaty rights in Bulgaria for 2 months and then apply for an EEA Family Permit to the UK. This will be at the 5 month pregnancy stage, which means that if we do encounter any difficulty in obtaining the Permit we are able to return to The Philippines before she is 6 months pregnant and forbidden to fly.

I would just like to point you in the direction of the Surinder Singh judgment from the UK border agency website in case you are not aware of it. EUN2.14:

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/ecg/eunati ... t#14763111

I will just draw your attention to paragraph six:

It does not matter if the only reason the British national went to another Member State was to exercise an economic Treaty right was so that he/ she could come back to the UK with his/ her family members under EC law.

As I have previously exercised my treaty rights for 17 months, I really do not think we will have any difficulty in obtaining the EEA Family Permit. The reason that we are going to use the EU route to get my wife into the UK is purely down to the availability of time. The processing time for the UK visa is 3 months without including the time it would take to put the file together.

Finally, I would just like to point out that I take visa requirements very seriously and there is no way that I would jeopardise the future of my family by abusing my wifeâ€™s visa in any way.

If you require any more information, then please do not hesitate to contact us. I would just like to take this opportunity to thank you for accepting our application at such short notice.

Kind Regards,

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:38 pm

With all due respect Andy, I think you're putting legs on a snake.

The Dutch embassy is not interested in your ultimate move back to the UK, making use of the ECJ ruling on Singh (etc.).. You might end up confusing them by providing unnecessary information.

Their interest is only this: does your wife qualify for a Schengen visa as the family member of an EEA national, yes or no.

As you know, the application must be processed as soon as possible, free of charge.

Apart from proof of citizenship of both you and your wife, and proof of relationship, the only other thing you should be emphasising and making absolutely crystal clear, is that the application is for an entry visa as the family member of an EEA national.

Post by **Obie** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:57 pm

Andy, i think you need to remove the Suriinder Singh bit on your letter, as they would want to interpret it as you going to Bulgaria only to contravene UK immigration rule.

Try and make it short and sharp.

You are a Union Citizen who is entitled to freedom of movement under community law (directive 2004/38EC)

Your wife who fall under Article (2) (2)family members and hence has an absolute right to travel with you too, so long as she is not a threat to Public policy, Public health or public security.

You intend to proceed to Bulgaria where you will be exercising EU treaty rights with your wife.

Article 5 of the Directive states that her visa should be issued as part of an accelerated procedure, and free of charge and that the only documents you need to provide is evidence of Relationship, and evidence of your union citizenship.

Article 6 states you are allowed to stay with your wife for a period of three months without the need to fulfill any requirement other than to hold a valid passport or identity card.

You would appreciate if your wife's application is processed under this legislation, and if they are unable to do so you would appreciate a written response on why your wife's application cannot be processed under this directive.

You can also PM or email Prawo, a forum member, who is a Dutch lawyer specialised in dealing with these matter. I know few people whom he has successfully assisted.

andy and ann · Post by **andy and ann** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:04 pm

Thanks a lot you two! I realised that it was too long and that is why I posted it here. Don't worry, I haven't pressed submit!

I will shorten it down much more, and put those bits in Obie.

I was told to explain why I wanted a 90 day visa if the flights were only there for 2 weeks.

As you can see, I don't think the same way as these people!

andy and ann · Post by **andy and ann** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:47 pm

Lol would you believe it?

Aunty doesn't want to help us as she advised Ann that I should return to the UK and go through immigration and that she shouldn't travel in her state of pregnancy!

bah!!

Post by **Obie** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:58 pm

andy and ann wrote:Lol would you believe it?

Aunty doesn't want to help us as she advised Ann that I should return to the UK and go through immigration and that she shouldn't travel in her state of pregnancy!

bah!!

How awful.

How about making a hotel reservation and showing it to them. Most of the time you do not have to pay straightaway.

Get cracking mate. Print out the reservation or forward it to them.

andy and ann · Post by **andy and ann** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:12 pm

The sites I know it will cost a fortune. Don't worry I am not looking for any suggestions you have done enough.

I think I will email the embassy and tell them we are struggling to contact the aunt and ask why they need this information when it clearly states at the bottom of page 1 of the application that EU family members do not need to enter this information.

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:30 pm

I said the EEA route was no fun! I was totally excited about it when I first read about it (I have Irish Gramps) - but in practice it's a freaking nightmare, no one in authority knows the rules, ur non-EU partner cannot work cos u have no piece of paper cos the right is 'automatic'....

Post by **Obie** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:43 pm

Would the aunt be prepared to provide you with accommodation when you get there. If not a B&B will be an option to look into.

It is good you are emailing them about the fact that the application states that you don't need to enter those information. If they insist on it, and the aunt says she will not be in the position of accommodating you guys, let me know your price range and the dates you want and i will run a search for you.

The Netherlands is one place in Europe that i have no friends or family. If i had, i would have got you an address easily, which they would have been more than happy for you to use.

Wanderer i am sure that Andy did not take this decision lightly. If it was not the better of the two options available to him, he would not have embarked on it. I am also sure he did not think it will be an easy ride either.

He is just exercising his rights. What is the point of having a right if you cannot exercise it. He is not doing anything wrong, it is the so called competent authority, or should i say incompetent authority that are trying to deliberately curtail his rights.

andy and ann · Post by **andy and ann** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:45 pm

lol I can see what you were saying now! It certainly is a roller coaster of emotions!

But! I really do think with the valued advice we are recieving from here we will succeed!

Post by **Obie** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:59 pm

I admire your spirit mate.

I hope our almost simultaneous posting did not mask the previous post is sent you.

If you can, drop this chap a post and see if he can give you any assistance on the actions of the Dutch ECO.

andy and ann · Post by **andy and ann** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:07 pm

Hi Obie,

I did indeed see your post, but I was busily writing the next email to them which is as follows:

Dear Sir/Madam,

Further to my wife's visa application today I can hereby furnish you with the updated details as requested by you.

Having been unable to contact Ann's Aunt, Ann contacted her cousin who has agreed for us to stay with her in The Netherlands. Her contact details are as follows:

*******

I apologise for being unable to submit these details to you but it came as a surprise that it was required, when in fact the footnote at the bottom of page 1 of the application states that family members of EU citizens are not required to enter this information.

I would just like to confirm that we would like a 90 day visa in case there are any difficulties regarding Ann's pregnancy and we might have to put back the date of travel. Since the visa is only for her entry, her stay for up to three months is based directly on art. 6 of Directive 2004/38/EC, I am sure that this should present no problem to you.

I would like to thank you once again for processing our application so quickly.

Kind Regards,

Andrew.S.Bell

Post by **Obie** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:11 pm

Please remove the pregnancy bit, or they will ask you for medical insurance which you would then have to arrange before they would issue you with the visa.

They would be on the right side of the law if they make this request.

andy and ann · Post by **andy and ann** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:13 pm

Hi Obie,

That was the chap I did message, and got a very speedy response. It was great advice! It is such a shame that speed is of the essence here as I think it would be great fun fighting for my rights!

I cannot believe it, we are up to page 7 on this thread and we only submitted the schengen today! Its going to be fun when we reach Bulgaria!

andy and ann · Post by **andy and ann** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:28 pm

Damn! I didn't see your message about insurance and I guessed it was alright so I just sent it! Something has been wrong with my internet con tonight.

It's ok though as I will be getting the insurance for her, I don't think it is worth the risk of not getting it. I was trying to buy it online yesterday, but failed as it all seemed to be for British citizens so she will be visiting some travel agents, she just don't know it yet

I am just going to include here the recent guidlines that a certain lawyer sent to me, if nothing else, but for my own information so I can find them again easily.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... FIN:EN:PDF

Dutch:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... FIN:NL:PDF

Thanks all and Good night!

andy and ann · Post by **andy and ann** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:24 am

I just received a reply back from the Bulgarian embassy in Germany with regard to my query on visa processing times.

we need for the visa application 3-5 days. I can not tell you, how long you have to wait for submit the application. It is different. If there are many people, you have to wait longer.
Please bring the confirmation of the hotel and flight booking, a photo and the passport of your wife.

Best regards
Konsularabteilung Bonn

I just emailed them back asking why they need the flight/hotel bookings as it shows that it is not required and sent them the relevant link to the Bulgarian ministry of foreign affairs website.

Obviously I can easily get someone to say that we are going to live there but booking the flights would be a waste of money! Will wait and see what they say about it. It is amazing how bad these embassies are at observing the law!

Anyone know where we can get the travel insurance for my wife? We tried banks/travel agents, everything yesterday without any joy. The ones I have so far seen online only cater for UK citizens. Doh!

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A quick question or two!