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d1o
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Post by d1o » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:37 pm

Just a quick question.

Last April, Labour adjusted the points awarded for earnings such that the different bands lost approximately 5 points and folks effectively needed to earn more in order to score at least 75 points in attributes to qualify to switch into Tier 1.

2 months down the line, the Tories have now increased the required points to 80 effective July 19 along side an interim cap to ensure there is no last minute rush into the UK prior to April 2011. If this was the case, then why do the NEW POINTS (80) apply to in-country applicants switching from say PSW for example to Tier 1. Sadly, these are the very same category of people who had labour devalue the points awarded for thier earnings only two months ago. In increasing points needed to qualify from 75 to 80, did the Tories consider that only two months ago, the points awarded for earnings each lost about 5 points, and by implication, they have actually now increased the points required by 10 points within 3 months.

It takes at least a year to plan ur earnings and others to apply for Tier 1. When labour made these changes in April, I know lots of folks, who went out and found second jobs to boost their earnings in order to make up the lost points. To have these increased further so soon is unfair to say the least. Unless of course, they intend to re-adjust the points awarded for earnings (to what it was prior to April) and then ask for 80 points.

But I do not think they care anyway.

GSOtodd
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Location: London

Post by GSOtodd » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:00 pm

MJnair,

You will need a new certificate of sponsorship but the UK Border Agency website said when they announced Tier 2 limits that priority would be given for extensions. You should be ok.
Andy

mtuckersa
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Post by mtuckersa » Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:31 pm

anyone noticed this?

http://www.commonwealthcontractors.com/news.php?id=476 and
http://www.internationalworkpermits.com/newsflash/

states that "Please note that you will not have to meet the increased points mark if you are already in the UK in one of the following categories:

Tier 1 (General)
Highly Skilled Migrant Programme
Writer, composer or artist
Self-employed lawyer

BUT http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... for-t1-pbs

states "If you are in the UK in one of the following categories and are applying to extend your stay in Tier 1 (General), you will need to score 95 points:
Tier 1 (General)
Highly Skilled Migrant Programme
Writers, Composers and Artists
Self-Employed Lawyers

SO WHICH IS IT, do you need 95 points to extend or dont you??

Saga
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Post by Saga » Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:57 am

95 points is the 75+10+10 so its not an increase.

Saga
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Post by Saga » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:00 am

Tier1 holders with applications before 6th April 2010
Tier 1 holders with applications after 6th April 2010

Are the new rules in any way affecting them differently ?

mtuckersa
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Post by mtuckersa » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:11 am

if everyone who wants to extend their Tier 1 visa fall under the rules after the 6th April, then they will effectively lose points on earnings most likely and be 5 or 10 pts short

So its not so simple as just 75+10+10 that only applies if its on the rules before 6th April

aspirant99
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Post by aspirant99 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:30 am

mtuckersa wrote:if everyone who wants to extend their Tier 1 visa fall under the rules after the 6th April, then they will effectively lose points on earnings most likely and be 5 or 10 pts short

So its not so simple as just 75+10+10 that only applies if its on the rules before 6th April
1) Till now the rules have not been applied retrospectively which would mean that the rules for extension will stay the same as it was at the time of intial application.(post or pre 6th april)

2) For tier-1 applications pre 19th july and post 6th april the applicant has to acquire 75 +10+10

3) For tier-1 applications on and post 19th july the applicant has to acquire 80+10+10.

mtuckersa
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Post by mtuckersa » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:38 pm

can you provide evidence to support that claim

aspirant99
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Post by aspirant99 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:13 pm

mtuckersa wrote:can you provide evidence to support that claim
Sure, READ the SOC june 2010...

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... ofchanges/
Last edited by aspirant99 on Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Saga
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Post by Saga » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:20 pm

By the way, who can give input to the MAC consultations ?

Are there any bodies representing Tier 1 holders? Can individuals give inputs?

ukswus
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Post by ukswus » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:53 pm

Saga wrote:By the way, who can give input to the MAC consultations ?

Are there any bodies representing Tier 1 holders? Can individuals give inputs?
Now, they don't care about your or my opinion. There is no option for us to send our feedback to MAC.

MJNair
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Post by MJNair » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:33 pm

Now, they don't care about your or my opinion. There is no option for us to send our feedback to MAC.
Yes, it is unlikely that they would take our opinion.

We can however write to our MPs, and send petitions to the Govt. The Conservatives & th Lib Dems were sympathetic to our cause during the changes in 2006. I can see Nick Clegg & Damien Green in the HSMP Forum supporters list.

If the HSMP forum is interested in the cause of the current T1 & T2 holders then we should send the petition through them or together. I hope that this would show the govt that all of us are equally affected by these changes and that it is not the opinion of one isolated group which they may potentially ignore.

The MAC consultation process is to run from now until September. The results will be published in December and implemented in April 2011.

Let us wait for a couple of weeks more until further details are published on how exactly they are going to implement the changes from July 19th to April 2010. We can then send the petition or letter accordingly.

What do you think?

ukswus
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Post by ukswus » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:38 pm

I agree.

ukswus
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Post by ukswus » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:41 pm

By the way, these are some of the concerns I mentioned in my letter to HSMP forum. People are welcome to use some of these ideas if they write to their MPs later.

********************************************

Regarding the recently published consultation paper by MAC, I would like to mention a few worrying points that I have noticed regarding specifically Tier 1 visa (which I have at the moment). I am sure equally valid concerns can be raised about suggested changes for Tier 2 route, which will hopefully be done by other people.

To be more specific, MAC mentions that:
"1.5 Only Tiers 1 and 2 of the PBS are in scope for this work. Our
recommended limit for Tier 1 will apply to the current Tier 1 general route
only, including dependants. It will apply to inflows into and from within Tier 1
from both within and outside the UK. It will therefore include in-country
migrants switching into, and extending under, Tier 1."

In my opinion, this paragraph unambiguously suggests that a future permanent cap may apply not only to the new applications for Tier 1 General visas, but also to those extending their stay under this category. This is further corroborated here:

"Question 6: The stock of main (non-dependant) migrant workers under
Tiers 1 and 2 is determined by (i) new migration from outside the UK and
(ii) extensions and switching between routes by migrants within the UK.
If migration is to be reduced, do you most favour achieving this via cuts
in (i) or (ii)?"

I have no legal training, and therefore cannot judge whether such retrospective changes can be applied from the legal point of view, but I do believe they should not be introduced at least on the moral grounds. Making existing applicants compete for places under any possible caps at the extension phase will expose them to major uncertainty, in addition to having to comply with already very strict rules. At the time of extension, many people who may otherwise have complied with all the rules and regulations they signed up for when they had moved into the UK, will be sent home, with a major damage done to their life and career prospects. It is one thing for a person to be denied entry into the UK when they are still at home, with their property still in their possession and career ongoing. It is a completely different story to send a person back to their country of origin, when they have invested so much into the country they had reasonable expectation of settling.

The introduction of such an uncertainty may have other detrimental implications. For example, suppose a Tier 1 General holder intends to find a new job about a year before their current visa will expire. One can imagine how difficult it will be for them to find an employer willing to take them on, without knowing if they will be able to fit into the quota.

Similarly, it does not appear to be a particularly business-friendly policy to uproot staff failing possible extension cap. On most occasions, Tier 1 General holders are highly skilled workers engaged in high value-added work, and it will be very unfair to make the UK employers lose such workers, when there was no reason for this other than not fitting into the suggested extension cap.

From yet another perspectives, the costs of such a cap on dependents of Tier 1 holders can be very substantial. Their spouses will face the same uncertainly regarding meeting a possible cap requirement on extension applicants, making it very difficult for them to find an employer willing to employ them. Moreover, in a hypothetical scenario when the otherwise qualified Tier 1 holder fails to get an extension because of the cap, their children may have to leave school in the middle of the academic year, losing a whole year of education because of having to go back home (school programs have considerable variation in their curricula around the world).

Finally, this question implies that the flow of dependant applications may be regulated according to different principles from the main applications:

“Question 7: To what extent should reductions in flows through Tiers 1
and 2 be met through reduced migration of dependants? Should
dependent numbers be reduced by proportionately more than those of
main migrants?â€

tsadeel79
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Posts: 184
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Rules not implemented for In-Country Tier 1 General

Post by tsadeel79 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:53 pm

Guy some people getting confuse on this forum about the new rule for T1 (G) implementing for all.
But the fact is these new rule implement and increase point to 80 for new comers or out of country or switching from other category to T1 (G)

it will not effect on ppl are already in country on T1 (G) or who go for extension on same category, they dont need extra 5 points and under limit....

plz guy read the rule carefully and not making any confusion on forum...

thankxxxx & best of luck........... :?

Saga
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Post by Saga » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:37 am

Let us wait for a couple of weeks more until further details are published on how exactly they are going to implement the changes from July 19th to April 2010. We can then send the petition or letter accordingly.
Do we really know more details will come?

Should we just wait till Dec? Or the best way would be try to have an affect on MAC (if we can).
it will not effect on ppl are already in country on T1 (G) or who go for extension on same category
This is as for now but MAC is looking into the T1 holders as well. We are talking about the future changes, if they occur !

ArgieBee
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Ireland

Post by ArgieBee » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:04 am

I don't think extensions should or will be capped (but for tier 2 general this has already happened as the interim cap is on CoS).

Look at the numbers for 2010Q1, if the 2000 psw and 7000 ict visas per quarter are not capped then all the cuts fall on tier 1 general, tier 2 general and dependents. Even reducing these to zero is not enough to reduce net immigration below 100,000.

ArgieBee
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Ireland

Post by ArgieBee » Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:43 pm

Just to clarify, these are entry clearance numbers. So unless psw and ict entry clearance numbers are also capped (which seems unlikely), then extensions may be considered.

Pierrot95
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Post by Pierrot95 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:41 pm

ukswus wrote:The introduction of such an uncertainty may have other detrimental implications. For example, suppose a Tier 1 General holder intends to find a new job about a year before their current visa will expire. One can imagine how difficult it will be for them to find an employer willing to take them on, without knowing if they will be able to fit into the quota.
...

From yet another perspectives, the costs of such a cap on dependents of Tier 1 holders can be very substantial. Their spouses will face the same uncertainly regarding meeting a possible cap requirement on extension applicants, making it very difficult for them to find an employer willing to employ them. Moreover, in a hypothetical scenario when the otherwise qualified Tier 1 holder fails to get an extension because of the cap, their children may have to leave school in the middle of the academic year, losing a whole year of education because of having to go back home (school programs have considerable variation in their curricula around the world).
Well, these are the very reasons why the governement is introducing new rules. In their view, fewer migrants working and going to school here is better for UK. Maybe you should put your point in a different way.

====

ukswus
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Post by ukswus » Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:48 pm

Pierrot95 wrote:
ukswus wrote:The introduction of such an uncertainty may have other detrimental implications. For example, suppose a Tier 1 General holder intends to find a new job about a year before their current visa will expire. One can imagine how difficult it will be for them to find an employer willing to take them on, without knowing if they will be able to fit into the quota.
...

From yet another perspectives, the costs of such a cap on dependents of Tier 1 holders can be very substantial. Their spouses will face the same uncertainly regarding meeting a possible cap requirement on extension applicants, making it very difficult for them to find an employer willing to employ them. Moreover, in a hypothetical scenario when the otherwise qualified Tier 1 holder fails to get an extension because of the cap, their children may have to leave school in the middle of the academic year, losing a whole year of education because of having to go back home (school programs have considerable variation in their curricula around the world).
Well, these are the very reasons why the governement is introducing new rules. In their view, fewer migrants working and going to school here is better for UK. Maybe you should put your point in a different way.

====
My point is that such changes should not apply to existing migrants. We all came here under completely different expectations; many of our dependents had to sacrifice careers to follow us here, under the assumption that at least they stay with us and work.

Had it been made clear to us, from the outset, that the migrants/dependent extensions may be capped, trust me, not many of us would have bothered to come.

Pierrot95
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Post by Pierrot95 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:28 pm

ukswus wrote:My point is that such changes should not apply to existing migrants. We all came here under completely different expectations; many of our dependents had to sacrifice careers to follow us here, under the assumption that at least they stay with us and work.

Had it been made clear to us, from the outset, that the migrants/dependent extensions may be capped, trust me, not many of us would have bothered to come.
I totally agree with your point. I just don't agree with how you put it. Saying that it is going to make finding a job more difficult for Tier1s and their partners is not going to make our case easier. If you say that in a public debate, the average British will respond that it is exactly what he wants. Don't forget that this is more a political issue than a simple immigtation issue. The government is aware that they are targetting the wrong people, but they don't have any other way of responding to the concern of British people about immigration. They want to send the message that they are addressing that concern and, unfortunately, we are the weakest link.

====

prisat
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Post by prisat » Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:39 pm

Pierrot95 wrote: The government is aware that they are targetting the wrong people, but they don't have any other way of responding to the concern of British people about immigration. They want to send the message that they are addressing that concern and, unfortunately, we are the weakest link.

====
8)

ukswus
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Post by ukswus » Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:41 pm

Pierrot95 wrote:
ukswus wrote:My point is that such changes should not apply to existing migrants. We all came here under completely different expectations; many of our dependents had to sacrifice careers to follow us here, under the assumption that at least they stay with us and work.

Had it been made clear to us, from the outset, that the migrants/dependent extensions may be capped, trust me, not many of us would have bothered to come.
I totally agree with your point. I just don't agree with how you put it. Saying that it is going to make finding a job more difficult for Tier1s and their partners is not going to make our case easier. If you say that in a public debate, the average British will respond that it is exactly what he wants. Don't forget that this is more a political issue than a simple immigtation issue. The government is aware that they are targetting the wrong people, but they don't have any other way of responding to the concern of British people about immigration. They want to send the message that they are addressing that concern and, unfortunately, we are the weakest link.

====
So, by this rationale, we should not mention the threat to our interests at all? After all, the British public, on average, doesn't give a damn about them, right? So, what do we end up with? I already mentioned harm done to employers forced to say goodbye to their valuable employees. What else, taxes?

I personally think this is not good enough, and we should not shy away from protecting ourselves from retrospective changes. After all, this is what HSMP people did, quite successfully. Also, keep in mind that we are addressing MAC recommendations here. MAC consists primarily of University Professors, and not "general public". Incidentally, they already spoke against retrospective changes in the past.

You have every right to disagree with me. However, I want to stress that I voiced MY point of view; I was not speaking on anybody's behalf. Also, rather than arguing here, it would be much more productive if you put the argument your way, and sent it to HSMP forum, or whoever you feel appropriate.

Pierrot95
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Post by Pierrot95 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:37 pm

ukswus wrote:So, by this rationale, we should not mention the threat to our interests at all?
I never said that. We should be wiser in how we defend our interests.
After all, the British public, on average, doesn't give a damn about them, right?
The British public do care about our contribution to the economy, our taxes, ... and so do the government. They don't care about how easy it is for us or our partners to find a job. The governement has no commitment to help us. Their commitment is to the Bristish people and the economy. If by helping the economy they are helping us, that's good.
I already mentioned harm done to employers forced to say goodbye to their valuable employees. What else, taxes?
And I agree.
Also, keep in mind that we are addressing MAC recommendations here. MAC consists primarily of University Professors, and not "general public". Incidentally, they already spoke against retrospective changes in the past.
If retrospective changes is the only way the government has to deliver their promise on immigration, they will do it. Unless we can convince them (or the judge) that it is illegal or that they are violating human rights.
Also, rather than arguing here, it would be much more productive if you put the argument your way, and sent it to HSMP forum, or whoever you feel appropriate.
If you don't want any comment on your view, why write on a public forum?

All the best,

====

ukswus
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Post by ukswus » Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:47 pm

[/quote]If you don't want any comment on your view, why write on a public forum?

====[/quote]

Just to make it clear: the purpose of posting my letter was not to invite a discussion on whether my argument was "right" or "wrong". If I wanted to do it, I would have created a separate thread. The real reason why I did it (and I mentioned it already) was to invite people to send their comments to MAC, MPs etc, and to borrow from my letter anything they feel appropriate (rephrasing appropriately, of course).

I hope there is no misunderstanding left.

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