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E.U States Allowing Visa free Travel-E.U Fam&Residence c

Immigration to European countries, don't post UK or Ireland related topics!

Moderators: Casa, Amber, archigabe, batleykhan, ca.funke, ChetanOjha, EUsmileWEallsmile, JAJ, John, Obie, push, geriatrix, vinny, CR001, zimba, meself2, Administrator

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Obie
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Ireland

Post by Obie » Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:55 pm

You have done a great job compiling this, but sometime for a variety of reasons, we might not be able to provide documentary evidence of our statements. Even if there are documentary evidence, there is no guarantee that things are done according to the instructions stipulated.

For example, if one knows a friend or relatives who traveled to these countries without a visa or they traveled with a resident card under 2004/38EC and were granted entry, you will not be able to prove that with document.

People can either choose to believe it or not. There is no onus on the contributor to provide evidence on something they are confident about, or have seen someone succeeded in doing.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

charles4u
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Post by charles4u » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:05 pm

Obie wrote:You have done a great job compiling this, but sometime for a variety of reasons, we might not be able to provide documentary evidence of our statements. Even if there are documentary evidence, there is no guarantee that things are done according to the instructions stipulated.

For example, if i one knows a friend or relatives who traveled to these countries without a visa or they traveled with a resident card under 2004/38EC and were granted entry, you will not be able to prove that with document.

People can either choose to believe it or not. There is no onus on the contributor to provide evidence on something they are confident about, or have seen someone succeeded in doing.
In as much as I know that there might sometimes be delays or problems at the border due to some sleeping un-updated officers, I tried to convince the embassies on phone that I will be glad if they could issue me the visa just to avoid any border problems.

THEY ALL (The embassies I contacted) told me as a matter of fact, they CAN'T issue my type of ID a visa (they are not allowed) and incase if I want any letter from the embassy...they can issue me a letter comfirming my visa-free movement as a family member of an EU travelling alone, just to show any officer that questions me.
Charles4u

ca.funke
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Post by ca.funke » Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:50 am

Hi charles4u,

I have to say I´m impressed. Seems like the EU-embassies in Romania are much better informed than the EU-embassies in Dublin.

Or is that simply because things improved over the last year?

Anyway, it sounds good! To avoid problems I´d still try to get a letter from the embassy confirming that you can indeed travel without a visa and furthermore they should state the fact that they are not even allowed to issue a visa since you don´t need one.

Great job, thanks for sharing this :)

Regards, Christian

giruzz
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Post by giruzz » Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:22 pm

HI,

My gf as an EEA Famili Member Permit issued by the Home Office in the UK.
We just travelled to Prague (CZ) and we got in without a visa (we are not married!).

We got stuck at the check-in desk in London for about 20 minutes and then we got stuck at the entry point it Prague (another 40min)...and another 10 minutes when leaving the country....but we managed to get in without a Visa.

The funny thing is that customs wanted us to get a Visa on Arrival before 'entering' the country...but they couldn't do it because we weren't married so the ppl a the customs office let us in without.... (I would have preferred to get a Schengen Visa but I'm happy with the result archived so far).

giruzz

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Location: does not matter if you are with your EEA family member

Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:58 am

giruzz wrote:My gf as an EEA Famili Member Permit issued by the Home Office in the UK.
We just travelled to Prague (CZ) and we got in without a visa (we are not married!).
So she does not have a Residence Card yet?

What problems did you get at Heathrow checkin, from whom, and how did you resolve them?

giruzz
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Post by giruzz » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:58 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:
giruzz wrote:My gf as an EEA Famili Member Permit issued by the Home Office in the UK.
We just travelled to Prague (CZ) and we got in without a visa (we are not married!).
So she does not have a Residence Card yet?

What problems did you get at Heathrow checkin, from whom, and how did you resolve them?
Residency Card? Is that new? She has an EEA Family Member Permit issued by the home office. It is a label on her passport.

The problem was at Luton with the check-in ppl. The guy had to 'double check' and disappeared for a bit with my GF's passport and a page we printed out from the CZ Consulate's website.

giruzz

86ti
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Post by 86ti » Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:44 pm

giruzz wrote:Residency Card? Is that new?
Judging from your posting history you applied for an RC in the past. So what is written on the sticker?

vivmen
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holiday in spain - does my husband need a visa

Post by vivmen » Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:24 am

I am British and my husband is Indian. He has leave to remain in the UK and instead of a visa stamp in his passport he was given the new residence permit/biometric ID card which states that he is my spouse. We have booked a weeks holiday in Spain next month as a family (our son is also a British passport holder). We have been trying to check whether my husband needs a visa but the information on the internet is VERY confusing and sometimes contradictory.

Could someone please clarify whether he can travel with us without having to obtain a visa? Thanks.

86ti
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Re: holiday in spain - does my husband need a visa

Post by 86ti » Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:19 am

vivmen wrote:I am British and my husband is Indian. He has leave to remain in the UK...

Could someone please clarify whether he can travel with us without having to obtain a visa?
No. He will need a visa.

vivmen
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Post by vivmen » Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:44 pm

This is a quote from the Spanish visa service - VFS Global's website:

"IMPORTANT NOTICE: Under Directive 2004/38/EC and according to Real Decreto 240/2007, 16 February, Family members of an EU/EEE National in possession of a valid UK Residence Permit are not required of a visa to enter Spain . Please note that the UK Residence Permit must state that the holder is a family member of an EU/EEE National, if not, a visa is required under the following conditions......."

Does this not apply to my husband? I have emailed the Spanish consulate but am waiting for a reply. I can't get through to anyone on the phone.

MAKUSA
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No

Post by MAKUSA » Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:16 pm

vivmen wrote:This is a quote from the Spanish visa service - VFS Global's website:

"IMPORTANT NOTICE: Under Directive 2004/38/EC and according to Real Decreto 240/2007, 16 February, Family members of an EU/EEE National in possession of a valid UK Residence Permit are not required of a visa to enter Spain . Please note that the UK Residence Permit must state that the holder is a family member of an EU/EEE National, if not, a visa is required under the following conditions......."

Does this not apply to my husband? I have emailed the Spanish consulate but am waiting for a reply. I can't get through to anyone on the phone.
No it doesnt, because you are not exercising treaty rights( you are British and live in the UK, To benefit you must have worked in different European country from your's) and your Husband's resident card must imply that he is a family member of an EEA national.

86ti
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Post by 86ti » Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:18 pm

vivmen wrote:Does this not apply to my husband?
Unfortunately, not. The Spaniards are wrong in calling it a 'residence permit' while it is clearly a residence card but they at least clearly describe what must be stated on it. Here how the sticker is supposed to look like:

Image
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... rd_mod.png

ca.funke
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Post by ca.funke » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:42 pm

vivmen wrote:I am British and my husband is Indian...

Could someone please clarify whether he can travel with us without having to obtain a visa? Thanks.
I think you can benefit from 2004/38/EC regardless, but it's a bit more complicated.

I wrote this down b4, so please read >>here<<.

If you do that, your holidays will start with an adventure. ;)

Good luck, regards, Christian
Last edited by ca.funke on Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

Richard66
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Post by Richard66 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:21 pm

No it doesnt, because you are not exercising treaty rights( you are British and live in the UK, To benefit you must have worked in different European country from your's) and your Husband's resident card must imply that he is a family member of an EEA national.
But by going to Spain treaty rights will be exercised and not all EEA countries discriminate between EEA citizens who live in their home state or in a host one. Spain itself extends the application of Directive 2004/38 to its own citizens, even if they haver never left Spain. It only seems fair to some countries that their own citizens should be treated the same or better than other EEA ones. Italy is another and it seems Romania is too.
Aiming at travelling to the UK with my wife and not with an EEA FP!

acme4242
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Post by acme4242 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:59 am

Spain itself extends the application of Directive 2004/38 to its own citizens, even if they haver never left Spain. It only seems fair to some countries that their own citizens should be treated the same or better than other EEA ones. Italy is another and it seems Romania is too.
Indeed, the principle of freedom of movement of EU citizens and their family should extend to all EU citizens.
While the EU commission cannot interfere in domestic issues, Member states such as the UK and Ireland should care more about their own citizens, and give them the equal rights.

In another post, I used the word "fight" as in the UK should fight, for its own citizens, this was a bad choice of words, I should have used "care"
Basically, the UK and Ireland should do what Spain, Belgium, Italy, and Romania do, and allow their own citizens family the equal rights, at least.

86ti
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Post by 86ti » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:50 am

I believe a residence card can only be issued to family members of EEA nationals exercsing their treaty rights. If member states issue the same type of document to their own citizens not exercising or not having exercised their rights under the Treaty, any other member state can rightly point out that that would be wrong.

acme4242
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Post by acme4242 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:57 am

This Embassy fails to understand the exact reasons why the INIS issues all other EU national's non EU family members with Stamp 4EuFam GNIB cards but fails to issue its own Irish non EU family members with the same Stamp 4EuFam cards. This would facilitate them with the exemption of all visas to visit Italy or the Schengen area, if the above 3 conditions were met. But as things stand now all non Eu spouses of Irish citizens need visas to visit the rest of the schengen area every time they travel to Italy
Reply From the Italian Embassy Ambassador. I agree with his response.
And this is not a EU commission issue, as its a domestic issue.
The Irish and UK governments can issue EU permits to their own family members, if the wished. There is nothing stopping them.
If there is, can you please inform me.
This is already solved in Spain, Belgium, Italy, and Romania

It is not the job of the EU commission to interfere in domestic issues.
It is the job of the national Government to solve this problem., by any means.
And there are many different solutions. ranging from joining Schengen to simply issuing
EU4FAM/EEA cards to their own Irish and UK families.

update: for ca.funke After Reading the old e-mail again,
it was not from the Ambassador, but a Embassy Staff member,
anyway, I agree with the chap.
Best regards

Mario MARINI
Visa Officer
Italian embassy
Dublin
Last edited by acme4242 on Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ca.funke
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Post by ca.funke » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:21 am

That's the coolest reply ever! :) Was is from the embassy, or really the ambassador?

If an ambassador is aware of the situation, he may talk about it with someone of the host-countrie's government at some stage - after all issuing these (senseless) visas is also a hassle for the embassy.

Some people (>>see this discussion<<) still think these visas have some sort of sense. I guess mainly from not understanding the difference between family-members, sham marriages and economically motivated migration.

I guess the difference that should be pointed out (as horrible as it sounds) is:

There is a huge gap between an EU-family-member living inside the EU and wanting to travel within the EU ;; to someone in some remote country who has no relation to- and never been to- Europe.

Asking for a visa in case one is purely a bureaucratic stupidity tying up resources for nothing, while in case two I deem it indispensable.

Anyway, good to know that Ambassadors are beginning to talk about it :)

86ti
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Post by 86ti » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:26 am

acme4242 wrote:The Irish and UK governments can issue EU permits to their own family members, if the wished. There is nothing stopping them.
If there is, can you please inform me.
I think I did in the post before yours. The real reason is, however, that many member states do not want to give the same rights to their own citizens.

BTW, it is not a permit.

Richard66
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Post by Richard66 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:50 am

But no law in the world can stop a country, if it wishes to, to apply the directive to its own citizens.

In the case of Italy, granting LESS rights to its own citizens than to other EEA citizens would be inconstitutional.

By the way, Ca.Funke, a little aside I heard the other day concerning family members: an Italian married an American and wanted to go with him to the UK, as she had a job there. EEA FP DENIED. Reason: sham marriage! :D . Now, can you imagine an American wanting to be an illegal immigrant in the UK? What next? A Russian resident in the US who wants to go to Romania to be illegal :D Cloud-cuckooland where these visa people live!
Last edited by Richard66 on Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Aiming at travelling to the UK with my wife and not with an EEA FP!

86ti
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Post by 86ti » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:11 pm

Richard66 wrote:But no law in the world can stop a country, if it wishes to, to apply the directive to its own citizens.
Yes, of course they can as long as only national matters are concerned. Visa free travel (and that's what this thread is all about), however, automatically affects another member state, i.e. there is a European dimension to it. I do not believe that residence cards can be legally issued to citizens who do not make use of their treaty rights simply because a residence card is a confirmation of exercising these rights.

acme4242
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Post by acme4242 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:59 pm

86ti wrote: Visa free travel , however, automatically affects another member state, i.e. there is a European dimension to it. I do not believe that residence cards can be legally issued to citizens who do not make use of their treaty rights simply because a residence card is a confirmation of exercising these rights.
This reminds me of the Irish pre-Metock logic, that you
needed to have already lived in a third EU state, before
you have the right to travel and live in a third EU state.

If Italy, Spain, Belgium and Romania care enough about
their own Citizens to issue EU1 Cards to their own families,
then the Irish and UK Governments should.

I still think this is a issue that MP's and TD's can solve if they wanted.

Richard66
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Post by Richard66 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:41 pm

I find it interesting that people in the UK's understanding of things is quite different from that of the continent , but I am afraid the EU does not share the UK's point of view.

What is often forgotten is that a British citizen can travel and work freely all over the EEA. Travel in itself is a treaty right. Is it not the treaty that says this citizen can go to France for three months no questions asked? Now, if this British citizen who lives in Swindon marries a Moldavian he is undone. That ease of travel evaporates. Is that not a restriction of free movement? Would not the idea that travel would be made extremely difficult and expensive deter him from marrying this Moldavian?

Also consider the issue of a visa to such a family member is mandatory. Now, the whole idea of visas is that entry should be denied to some people. Now, if a family member cannot be denied entry (with the legal exceptions that apply also to EEA citizens) into another EEA state, is it not a useless expenditure of time and money to issue a free visa to someone who cannot be denied entry? To me this is the victory of bureaucracy over sense.
Aiming at travelling to the UK with my wife and not with an EEA FP!

ca.funke
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Post by ca.funke » Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:19 pm

acme4242 wrote:After Reading the old e-mail again,
it was not from the Ambassador, but a Embassy Staff member,
anyway, I agree with the chap.
Best regards

Mario MARINI
Visa Officer
Italian embassy
Dublin
I like this guy - he was already handling some emails I was sending in regards of my little survey.

The replies were so nice/funny that we sent him a postcard from our holidays later... I still wonder if he ever got it.

Anyway, he´s making good points :)

charles4u
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Post by charles4u » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:32 am

acme4242 wrote:
This Embassy fails to understand the exact reasons why the INIS issues all other EU national's non EU family members with Stamp 4EuFam GNIB cards but fails to issue its own Irish non EU family members with the same Stamp 4EuFam cards. This would facilitate them with the exemption of all visas to visit Italy or the Schengen area, if the above 3 conditions were met. But as things stand now all non Eu spouses of Irish citizens need visas to visit the rest of the schengen area every time they travel to Italy
Reply From the Italian Embassy Ambassador. I agree with his response.
And this is not a EU commission issue, as its a domestic issue.
The Irish and UK governments can issue EU permits to their own family members, if the wished. There is nothing stopping them.
If there is, can you please inform me.
This is already solved in Spain, Belgium, Italy, and Romania

It is not the job of the EU commission to interfere in domestic issues.
It is the job of the national Government to solve this problem., by any means.
And there are many different solutions. ranging from joining Schengen to simply issuing
EU4FAM/EEA cards to their own Irish and UK families.

update: for ca.funke After Reading the old e-mail again,
it was not from the Ambassador, but a Embassy Staff member,
anyway, I agree with the chap.
Best regards

Mario MARINI
Visa Officer
Italian embassy
Dublin
I think this is why most of these countries like Belgium, Spain and some others allow and accepts holders of Residence card as a family member issued by Romania to travel visa=free even alone without the EU spouse.
Charles4u

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