Travel with EU Citizen,residence & work-Directive 2004/3

[smalldog]

Im spanish, ... We live in Spain

In this case are you sure your wife has a residence card issued under European regulations rather than one issued under Spanish law? I'm asking because European regulations apply to EU citizens exercising treaty rights in another EU state and don't usually apply if you are living in your country of citizenship (unless you have exercised treaty rights in another EU state).

Documents such as:... This among more than 10 documents.

They shouldn't require such documents for issue of an EEA family permit. You should need nothing more than your both your passports, your marriage certificate and confirmation that you will be going to the UK.

[voland]

My wife has a 5 year residence permit card, in which is written "Regimen Comunitario", this is "Communitary Regime", meaning EU regime. This card is particulary different to other residence permits issued by Spain, has a very similar format to a spanish national identity card (issued for spanish citizens), and every where is written EU, EU...

I asked in other non-Schengen countries like Hungary, and they accept it there with no problem, this is, she should'nt apply for a visa.

As you well pointed, UK and Ireland are only accepting Residence Permits, issued by them, and not by other countries of the EEA.

This are the family permit visa requirements, quoted from the webpage of the british consulate in MAdrid:

Family Permit visa



Please ensure you include both the applicant´s AND spouse´s documents with your application. If not, it may be refused. Please provide the following:


* Your valid passport
* Completed online application form
* 2 recent passport-size colour photos on a white background
* Your valid Spanish residence permit
* A copy of your spouse’s passport or national identity document. (If the EEA national is not Spanish, please ring the visa section for more information on 807 42 90 27 )
* Your full marriage certificate. If it is not British or Spanish it must be legalised for use in Spain. We cannot accept the Spanish Libro de Familia.
* You and your spouse’s up-to-date Vida Laboral
* You and your spouse’s pay slips from the last 3 months
* You and your spouse’s bank statements from the last 3 months
* Proof of your accommodation in the UK, including cost (for example, hotel reservation)

From this, to point few things. The telephone 807... is a payble phone, 1,4€ per minute. The marriage certificate that they ask for is such document that you may obtain only in 1 month after requiring it, everybody prooves marriage with "Libro de Familia", that in this case is not accepted by them... Vida laboral-official document that includes everywhere where you worked.

I consider this a total abuse, specially bank statements...

The most interesting thing is that, when you try to ask for a reason, they just tell that they implemented this Directive, that all is ok, and please shut up and go away...

Regarding spanish citizenship, it is a long process, for about 3 years, and she's not convinced, because she would loose her original passport, and return to Russia with a visa (we go there oftenly), seems to her ridiculous.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

The UK implementation law for Directive 2004/38/EC is
STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS
2006 No. 1003
IMMIGRATION
The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006
As HTML http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/20061003.htm
As PDF http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/uksi_20061003_en.pdf

On the visa form they ask for:
* You and your spouse’s pay slips from the last 3 months
* You and your spouse’s bank statements from the last 3 months
* Proof of your accommodation in the UK, including cost (for example, hotel reservation)
For a short stay (10 days) in the EU, this is material that is clearly outside what they are allowed to require, though they may be able to request it (just as they can request that you tell them your favorite food).

You might consider, if you have time, just submitting an application but leaving these fields blank and indicate on a covering letter that you have left blank questions that are not material for a decision governed by requirements of Directive 2004/38/EC.

I suspect they would just approve it, and if not you have a very strong basis for appeal.

[voland]

But why should I ask for a British family permit, if my wife has a spanish family permit, and according to EU laws, it is absolutely clear the meaning of article 5 of the Directive?

Do not you think it is very weird all of this? Why should I loose my time in such way, just for traveling for a weekend to England?!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

A wonder free EU resource is a legal information service that they offer on their web site. You can find the english language version at http://europa.eu.int/citizensrights/sig ... dex_en.htm

I have submitted a question to them and got called about 4 days later by an EU lawyer in the country who asked for some additional questions, explained how I might want to take it forward, and was busy but willing to answer my questions in some detail.

[voland]

I already submited a question, even got an answer, in spanish, stating that I am right, and that the UK is not fulfilling the EU law...

But no actions...

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I think they can give you advice, but I do not think they can directly do anything themselves.

If you do find a good way to resolve it or move it forward, please share the results here. Only by sharing and pooling our experiences will this stuff get resolved.

[DavidR98]

We also have a letter from the European Commission explaining that my wife (it mentions her name) should according to EU law, be let into Spain as long as she is with me and holds a valid Passport-it mentions that she may also require a residence permit "issued by an EU member state". That permit will take the place of any visa requirement.

Please could you tell us how you got that letter? Presumably you sent an enquiry to the EC, but to which bit of it? I might try this, but would feel more confident if armed with such a letter.

[Prawo]

According to a reasonable interpretation 2004/38/CE, your wife should not need a visa to go to the UK if she has a form of "residence card" issued by the Spanish government.

I do not agree on this, as the residence card is not the residence card issued according to art. 10 of the directive.

Only if you live as an EU citizen outside your country of nationality (or when you have dual citizenship), your partner will be issued such a card.

If you did not use your right of free movement and still live in your own country, your partner third country national, will not have an EU permit, but a national residence permit. And will consequently need a visa (in principle).

However, without a visa entry cannot be denied. This is the consequence of the Brax case.

[Docterror]

Only if you live as an EU citizen outside your country of nationality (or when you have dual citizenship), your partner will be issued such a card.

I don't think that it is entirely right. The response was given to a poster who said-

My wife has a 5 year residence permit card, in which is written "Regimen Comunitario", this is "Communitary Regime", meaning EU regime. This card is particulary different to other residence permits issued by Spain,

Since Spain does not tolerate any EU dual citizenship, the wife of the person in question could only have attained the the Residence Card visa the Surinder Singh route.

[Prawo]

You are right, I overlooked the original message. Though my remark is general and true.

I can confirm this Spanish EU card does allow visa free travel to the UK. Iit may however take some time convincing the immigration authority at the port of entry. In my case it was two hours. Which is annoying, but less than getting a visa.

[Richard66]

I can see no difference between an EU residence card and a National one, at least not in Italy. My wife was issued one recently and the only mention to EU is that it says she's the wife of a Community Citizen and is valid 5 years, which is as it should be according to the directive. I was issued one also (before the need for them was abolished) and it's on the same type of paper. Italy still does not have the model for the 5-year permit, but use the old model, however.

[Prawo]

The national one is issued to the partner of an Italian, and does not give the right of visa free travel to all EU member states besides the ones that belong to Schengen.

The EU one, you partner has, is given as you are a non Italian and gives visa free travel to all member states, also those outside Schengen. In practice only the UK and Ireland as of 2008.

[Richard66]

Which is the big change in store for 2008?

[Prawo]

Which is the big change in store for 2008?

Almost all EU countires will be part of Schengen.

[ciaramc]

The national one is issued to the partner of an Italian, and does not give the right of visa free travel to all EU member states besides the ones that belong to Schengen.

The EU one, you partner has, is given as you are a non Italian and gives visa free travel to all member states, also those outside Schengen. In practice only the UK and Ireland as of 2008.

Prawo.....Just a quick question a friend of mine was told by the visa issuing officer in Italy that they would not grant her husband a visa to visit the UK....she is a british citizen exercising here EU treaty rights here and her husband has been issued with a residence permit...by the way they have been married over 2 years. So from what I understand he technically does not need a visa to enter the UK? as he would be travelling with his spouse?

[Prawo]

That officer should have given better info.

Thewre is no visa required, but hardly anyone knows about it.

To start with the airline.

Do take the document mentioned in this topic for reference purposes.

[Richard66]

This seems the same officer that gave me information. She seems very little informed about her own job.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Prawo.....Just a quick question a friend of mine was told by the visa issuing officer in Italy that they would not grant her husband a visa to visit the UK....she is a british citizen exercising here EU treaty rights here and her husband has been issued with a residence permit...by the way they have been married over 2 years. So from what I understand he technically does not need a visa to enter the UK? as he would be travelling with his spouse?

What sort of visa was your friend's husband applying for? What were the grounds given for rejecting the application?

[ciaramc]

See was applying for a family visa as they did not waant to live in the UK ! But he wanted to join her for the birth of their first child! Which she planned to have in th UK! Which she explained to the officer!

But she was told that they would not issue a visa as her husband had no entry stamp on his italian residence card which means he entered Europe illegally!

Which is true but as it was 10 years ago and he has had a residence permit since then many times...issued by Italy ! I personnelly dont see how the UK embassy can take this into consideration....as Italy obviously has not!

[Prawo]

I suggest they contact the British Solvit centre for assitance to convince the UK authorities of their wrong ideas.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

See was applying for a family visa as they did not waant to live in the UK ! But he wanted to join her for the birth of their first child! Which she planned to have in th UK! Which she explained to the officer!

Please confirm that they were applying for a UK issued EEA family permit. This is something which is issued by the UK based on EU law. (This EEA family permit is used both to visit the UK for a weekend and to move to the UK for the rest of your life).

But she was told that they would not issue a visa as her husband had no entry stamp on his italian residence card which means he entered Europe illegally!

Which is true but as it was 10 years ago and he has had a residence permit since then many times...issued by Italy ! I personnelly dont see how the UK embassy can take this into consideration....as Italy obviously has not!

This makes me think they we not applying for an EEA family permit. If he is legally resident in Italy now, then it does not matter how he arrived 10 years ago.

They should definitely contact Solvit (http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/ ).

They should also immediately contact the UK embassy and request a written explanation of why they were denied the EEA family permit. There are only a limited number of reasons they can be refused, and the UK is required to provide details of the reason.

[ciaramc]

I have told her all of this and I am going to help her get in contact with SOLVIT ! she is 8 months pregnant right now and she does not want to have to go to the embassy and argue with them...as she had to do on past visits......they would not even let her in last time as they told her it was by appointment only!
I have now informed her of her right to travel with her third nation spouse within the EU providing they travel together it is my understanding that he does not even need a visa?

She was not applying for a EEA family permit as she didn't know anything about this ...she aked the embassy on her husband flying home with her and she was told he would need a visa! I am the one who informed her about the family permit as she had no idea were to go about getting information as the embassy does not inform you of your rights!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

How and when is she planning to travel to the UK if she is so pregnant?

She needs to carry the marriage certificate with her when she travels with her husband. And if they were not married in Europe, a translation of it into English is a very good idea.

She does not need to fight with the embassy. She needs to be very clear with them that they have made a mistake and they need to hurry to issue the EEA family permit.

From the Rome embassy web site

Registering a complaint

The Visa Section in Rome aims to provide an efficient and courteous service to those requesting visa services. If you have any complaints about the service provided by this Section please write to H.M.Consul, British Embassy, Via XX Settembre 80a, 00187 Roma and he will respond within 5 working days. If you have a complaint specifically against H.M.Consul then you should write to the Deputy Head of Mission (DHM) at the same address.

[Richard66]

The British Solvit repiled to my querry on the same subject in record time (sent Friday at 8pm, reply on Monday morning at 9am: I doubt they even had time to read my letter) saying I can only go to the UK with my wife with a family permit if I am to go there to work, to be employed or to be self-employed. In all other cases they say I need a visa. To me it seems incredible that to return to the UK I need a family permit for my wife, but to go for a short visa I need a visa for her.