If you are British and have a Non-EU spouse - GET ANGRY

[Russia]

For those spouses that don't mind packing their beloved off on a plane home, and are quite happy to let them handle the visa process alone - then yes you're quite right - it's not necessary for the British citizen to accompany them.

I understand you took exception to my suggestion that some people ought to raise their awareness of the horrors that lie in store for us by reading some thought provoking literature, and that you subscribe to the thinking that country of origin should be a prime consideration when selecting life-long partners (should you wish to visit the UK) – if you deem my views as patronising, then I feel compelled to comment that your views and opinions say a great deal about yourself also. As far as I am concerned no-one is patronising anyone here, let alone telling untruths, you know as well as I that if you happen to be WASP or equivalent the rules of the immigration game are different - if you are happy about this state of affairs, and can honestly say you see no wrong in British citizens being treated differently from EU citizens then you are of course welcome to your opinion.

[JAJ]

This board has many well-intentioned individuals offering practical advice and guidance - so if you're a British citizen married to a foreigner, and don't object to supplying the British government with 10 pages of personal information, a hefty fee which can, depending on the application amount to over 400euros, and you are prepared to be hugely inconvenienced by having to travel to your spouse's country of residence then stay there for as long as the application can take to process (which can be several months in some cases) - then maybe you are indeed docile and submissive enough to be led by the nose through some of the ill-contrived immigration laws of the United Kingdom.

So what exactly are you complaining about? You started off talking about visitor visas - is that still the case or have you moved on?

[Russia]

No JAJ, still on the project. Yes I made a brief excursion off-thread to support darksquids observations of unfairness government policy, and took the opportunity to demonstrate to ppron that some of us show a little love for spouses by supporting them in the visa process, but that is all.
For the rest of it, and the quote you pulled, most is still applicable in terms of having to get permission to visit the UK. Except perhaps the cost element, the need to visit embassy in country of origin still applies, and when you’re sat in your holiday home in Andalusia without a visa to the UK, it’s somewhat inconvenient wouldn’t you say?

I spoke to my wife about the exchanges we’ve been having on this website, I told her I was surprised at the lack of support or at least some formidable argument that could counter our claims (other than that old chestnut…why should the British be treated any different to other nationalities…this retort always makes me smile when Brits take the moral high ground one minute only to display their rotten underbelly through action in the next), she said – perhaps people need to know more about your motives, explain why you are so passionate about this issue, otherwise they’ll think you’re just a whining old git with an axe to grind. So for those interested here goes….

Over the past several years, my wife and I have stood in driving rain, snow, and sometimes-unbearable heat outside embassies all over the world. There have been times when we have had to drive in 4x4 vehicles across hazardous terrain for anything up to 700kms to reach an embassy so we can make an application. Oftentimes, following hours, occasionally days queuing outside on the street when we’ve finally have had the chance to submit documents the officers have found some minor discrepancy in the paperwork, such as; missing photocopy, illegible notary stamp, or a missing month in a bank statement.

Fact – most embassies throughout the world require personal applications.

For those of you that have the luxury of posting off for a visa, or passport, and have the convenience of conducting all your bureaucratic obligations such as submitting a tax returns or buying a road-fund license via the internet or through the post – consider that in much of the rest of the world EVERYTHING is much, much more difficult.

Fact – most embassies apply frequent rule changes and document requirements are often very subjective and at discretion of each embassy.

Now I have heard and read a lot about how ‘straightforward’ the processes are for making visa applications or settlement claims and all the rest of it on your site. You provide subscribers with a wealth of practical simple to follow advice and guidance – however, what fails to be taken into account, but is widely known by all those that visit your site and attempt to follow the rules is that – what is easily said, is not easy to do. If I could be convinced that the detractors/moderators of my posts have spent a single minute actually navigating the system for their own needs then they would be due great respect for their comments and feedback, but so far I seen nothing to convince me that those who are vocal are doing nothing more than regurgitating the IND handbook (although it must be added this is a worthwhile vocation, since the IND information is extremely confusing for the layman). So please, why not stop picking through the detail of my argument/observations and either, a) come out and support it/them, or b) challenge the idea/content…whilst making the assumption that those of us that have to jump through the process hoops will do so TOGETHER as MAN & WIFE.

[JAJ]

So please, why not stop picking through the detail of my argument/observations and either, a) come out and support it/them, or b) challenge the idea/content…whilst making the assumption that those of us that have to jump through the process hoops will do so TOGETHER as MAN & WIFE.

I'm still at a loss to understand what specific changes you would like made. And incidentally, even if you were French or German or another EU/EEA nationality, your wife would still need a visa/permit to visit the United Kingdom.

Am I correct to think that you are looking for things like:
- longer period of validity and multiple entry on visitor visas
- removal of visa application cost
- ability to apply at an Embassy other than the one serving home country

If this is not the case, then what precisely do you want. It's very difficult to give support to anything that recounts a lengthy tale of woe but is short on specifics for improvement.

[Russia]

In all seriousness, thanks JAJ for drilling down to the core of this matter, yes I probably have exhausted the point about unfairness -so turning to practical matters.
Ideally, I would like to see a complete removal of spouse visa requirements for VISITS, I believe existing legislation about settlement etc is fundamentally sound in terms of placing the onus on the applicant family to substantiate their ability to live and support themselves (no one wants to see greater burdens on the welfare state than those that already exist).
If we are to be obliged to formally register our presence during UK visits, why shouldnt the existing passport stamp at immigration control suffice - if linked to a maximum stay then the date mark serves as proof of entry and is easily checkable, and anyway the technology exists to monitor overstayers entering the UK through immigration channels - where's the problem?
According to EU family rights legislation it is stated that visa-national spouses MAY BE required to obtain a visa for entry to country - my beef is why do country's (not just the UK) actually insist they do in every case? Granted there are some EU country's that make obtaining a visa practically as simple as signing a piece of paper with a name and address, meanwhile others use the immigration instruments to profile applicants to extreme lengths.
But as a start, I want to see the UK treating spouses of its own citizens with a tad more respect than is currently given - and yes the points you made are on my agenda - remove county of origin application requirement - extending visit periods go some way towards making the visa cost better value for money - reduce the disclosure requirement to the Schengen norms.
These I believe are reasonable demands.

I hope you and others would agree that I'm being reasonable - if not, I really would like to know why (essentially the main objective of my original post, along with raising awareness of certain discriminatory practice by government - including, but not limited to the ease of entry issue - (as I see it) - for EU and visa national couples to the UK)

[JAJ]

According to EU family rights legislation it is stated that visa-national spouses MAY BE required to obtain a visa for entry to country - my beef is why do country's (not just the UK) actually insist they do in every case?

Because of fake marriages. There is no way that airline check-in officials, for example, can be expected to assess whether a couple claiming to be married, really are married.

But as a start, I want to see the UK treating spouses of its own citizens with a tad more respect than is currently given - and yes the points you made are on my agenda - remove county of origin application requirement - extending visit periods go some way towards making the visa cost better value for money - reduce the disclosure requirement to the Schengen norms.
These I believe are reasonable demands.

In that case, you should try and be precise and stick to the point.

Your original point suggested that spouses of EU-member state citizens have a much easier time getting UK visitor visas when there is no evidence to support that assertion.

And getting a Schengen visa isn't exactly simple either, as many people on this forum have discovered.

[Russia]

I take your point about bogus marriages - the same, as I understand that immigration control is an essential governmental role in society. Unfortunately, the government has repeatedly failed to meet their obligations to society on this matter - the bogus marriage phenomenon is a reflection of this, as are the many other documented failings.

I have no answer as to how to solve this problem – in terms of separating the ‘good from bad’ – perhaps this is a matter for the co-conspirators conscience?


The point about EU member citizens and visa national spouses visiting UK. Tell me, is it easier to visit any Embassy in the EU to gain a freely provided permit than to travel back to country of origin and apply for a visa?

Compare Schengen visa application to a UK visit application – the first thing to strike you is that one is 2 pages long (with one third of questions not obligatory to answer in the case that the spouse is EU or British for that matter). The other is 10 pages long, no prize for guessing, which is which! If the husband/wife is EU and they provide evidence of marriage then it is automatically granted – there are no exceptions unless they are threat to national security etc.. – if people on this forum have had difficulties then perhaps they are not being completely honest – or they are allowing their rights to be trampled on. It is inconceivable to imagine that any EU country is going to deny a Schengen visa to a spouse of a EU citizen.

Read the content of the link, then draw a comparison to the British system

http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj/fr ... hts_en.htm

[loozit]

Let me tell you my story.
I am 7 months pregnant my mother has breast cancer which has spread throughout the body and according to the entry clearance officer in chennai india my husband and my human right to family life is not being interfered with as i can leave my sick mother and live in india.
The refusal is absolute nonsense
" i am not satisfied that each of the parties intend to leave permanently with each other as husband or wife"
Yes thats right, "leave together"
My husband has been refused twice even though an OISC lawyer says refusals are not legal.
I have no rights in a country where male members of my family have fought in wars so that we have so called rights etc.
My second point is i am surrounded by european nationals where i live who can easily bring their spouses here regardless of spouses country of origin.
Now, my gripe is not with these people, i am furious that the government makes different rules (stricter) for its own citizens.
I am disgusted with the entry clearance system, they take £260 each time you apply and give a sub standard service.
It is obvious from some of the refusals that they havent even read supporting documents.
The appeal system is lengthier for me than someone who turns up in this country in a few weeks and dumps their papers in a heathrow airport bin. Let me clarify i have no grudge against asylum seekers.
The asylum an immigration should be separated departments in some ways.
It is too complicated at the moment.
So, i am having a baby in a couple of months, i have 2 refusals that dont appear to be even legal, but hey i can leave my sick mother and move to india where the life of myslef and my child would be put in danger by the same government who on british high commission site state that as a pregnant woman i should avoid travelling to india as there are too many diseases.
And the entry clearance officer can sit back with no fear of reprisals.

[sakura]

Hmm...I have been wondering some things, if someone can clarify;

1. why is it the EEA family applications are free, whereas those for a British Citizen family member are not?

2. how is it that if a non-EEA family member is illegal, they can regularise their status without having to leave, yet for BC partners they need to apply from their own country for re-rentry?

3. how is it that EEA applications are enshrined in EU law and are (generally, though not always) supposed to be guaranteed under EU law to be approved in a set time, whereas BCs' applications can take ages?

4. how is it that EEA applications are always approved (right?) whereas BCs' applications can be refused almost based on assumptions?

As for Russia's comments:

Do you basically want the UK to join the schengen area so you don't need to bother with a visa? Would be nice but it isn't going to happen. At the end of the day, if the applicant is of a visa requiring country, you follow the guidelines or forget about travelling...

[loozit]

The only problem is it makes no difference if you follow the guidelines as the people put in charge of the visas dont follow the guidelines in quite the same way otherwise there wouldnt be as many successful appeals.
I must prove my whole life, they just have to say "we dont believe you".
It will take months to ahve an appeal heard in which i cannot see my husband other than by webcam and that is also probably the way he will see his son for the first time

[Russia]

As for Russia's comments:

Do you basically want the UK to join the schengen area so you don't need to bother with a visa? Would be nice but it isn't going to happen. At the end of the day, if the applicant is of a visa requiring country, you follow the guidelines or forget about travelling...

Many European countries are not in the shengen zone, however, this does not stop us as a EU and Visa national couple from travelling through and staying for a short period in these countries. As I write, my wife and I are staying in a hotel in Slovenia, having entered via Italy enroute to Hungary (non Schengen) onto Ukraine to our destination Russia. The reason for my campaign, is to equalise the rights of British families with the rest of Europe - you made some extremely interesting points about the other aspects of the discrimination we are experiencing, as to who can clarify...? who knows, I've been stonewalled by Euro MPs, agencies, Brit MPs and ngo's. Sign the petition and lets force a Government response. http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/BritishSpouse/

[clairey]

2. how is it that if a non-EEA family member is illegal, they can regularise their status without having to leave, yet for BC partners they need to apply from their own country for re-rentry

Is that true? I know a couple of people who are in that unfortunate situation (although both couples are not married, but have been living together for 2 years) and their lawyers have not told them it's possible

[Docterror]

Unmarried partners in a durable relationship with an EEA national are not considered as family members but as 'extended family members' according to EU regulations.

[Docterror]

2. how is it that if a non-EEA family member is illegal, they can regularise their status without having to leave, yet for BC partners they need to apply from their own country for re-rentry?

Could you please explain how a non-EEA family member of an EEA national exercising his treaty rights can be illegal?

[Russia]

OK Update - petition site
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/BritishSpouse/
now has well over 200 signatories and rising, the petition ends in August 07. If you want to get UK government feedback and reply to the petition questions you will need to sign it! Please do so.
If or rather when the UK government dismisses us with a fob off reply we will begin our legal action campaign. Justice is a long hard road, join me and others please at least for a few steps of the way.
Thanks,
Simon

[AksanaT]

hi all
Russia, I defenitely agree with you, i married British man nearly 1 year and i am still at my origin coutry, i was refused twice. At first time spouse visa and the second - eea family permit. Husband has dual citizenship (brit/greek). I want to note that when i applied the second time, i was said by eco I could not apply for this because husband is british in spite of his greek passport and he said that he would send a request to HO to find out defenitely this but any way he said even if i can do this i have no chance to get eea family permit because i was refused spouse visa.
Later in 1 week i came on interwie and was refused.
Now on 27th of june we have our appeal - hearing finally.
I did signed a petition already.

Удачи и надеюÑ

[Russia]

spasibo balshoye Aksana

contact EU SOLVIT helpline and find out your rights via this link http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj/fr ... try_en.htm

Good luck.