non-eu family members, do i really have equal rights?

[anfarose]

I think they are dreaming... I was also dreaming to think i had the same rights as my husband and daughter to travel to europe.
Shame there is no one to take immediate action from the EU commisson on my behalf instead of waiting 10 weeks to get a reply from what i read. Then i guess it wouldn't change anything in our case because we planned to travel in 2-3 weeks time.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

There is an article on the FCO website (UK advice for Brits living in Spain). It describes process for having foreign marriages recognised. It is written for people applying in country, but describes the problems one might have.

Not providing every facility, I would have thought so and it ought to open to challenge.

Here is a link - see Recognition of a foreign marriage (quite some way down the page).

https://www.gov.uk/notarial-and-documen ... r-marriage

[anfarose]

I don't think the problem was them recognizing the british marriage certificate with apostille, more the reason it been issued about 19 months ago when we were married.
So they argue we could have got divorced after the marriage, they mentioned getting confirmation from the british embassy that we are still married. I'm not sure they do this kind of thing, how would they know any different to the spanish by looking at our marriage certificate?
We are now thinking to get another copy of marriage certificate with apostille sent from registrar to give them, this will of course take time and not really sure this is all they want.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Can you take the ferry to Spain? Where are the immigration controls done for the ferry?

See http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... to-travel/

[anfarose]

To be honest i have never taken the ferry to Spain from the north of Morocco, living near to the main airport it is much easier to travel by plane. Also I am sure the moroccan authorities never let anyone travel to europe without visa, so i guess much more difficult than if i was travelling within the EU with my husband.

My husband talked with the British Embassy today by phone to explain our situation with the Spanish Consulate, he explained to them about the actualisation of our marriage certificate the Spanish wanted. The Embassy didn't really know what they wanted either for this document. They did say they would prepare a free document from the British Embassy to take back to the Spanish, also we could make a declaration of our marriage and witnessed by them. Of course the declaration we pay for at nearly 30 euros.

The British Embassy mentioned they often have to do this kind of documents especially for the Spanish and occasionlly for the French for visas. My husband asked if this would be enough proof we are still married for the Spanish and the woman from the British Em, said they guess so because they have not had any feedback after doing so and not heard back that they haven't accepted the documents.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

I don't think the problem was them recognizing the british marriage certificate with apostille, more the reason it been issued about 19 months ago when we were married.
So they argue we could have got divorced after the marriage, they mentioned getting confirmation from the british embassy that we are still married. I'm not sure they do this kind of thing, how would they know any different to the spanish by looking at our marriage certificate?
We are now thinking to get another copy of marriage certificate with apostille sent from registrar to give them, this will of course take time and not really sure this is all they want.

Other countries hold a register of the inhabitants marriage status. That might be perhaps they think it can be found easily for you.

[anfarose]

Just to update everyone on my situation applying for the schengen visa at the Spanish Consulate. They told my husband and I to go get an ''actualisation of our marriage'' done at the British Embassy in Rabat.

Today we went to the British Emb. and spoke with them about our position. The vice Consul looked at our marriage certificate and couldn't see the problem and said she couldn't give us the recognition letter as they should accept it anyway. When we mentioned about the query the Spanish had over the date of our marriage certificate been done end of 2011 and having a possible divorce since that date. The British Consul said she could have my husband do a ''Declaration of marriage'' to state we are still married. He then had to sign the declaration, also signed and witnessed by the Vice Consul and then the Embassy stamp placed on it.

I plan to go back to the Spanish Consulate tomorrow to finish applying for visa. I'm just worried the Declaration of marriage won't be enough for the Spanish, so wondered if anyone had done this type of thing before and how much these documents really count for obtaining a visa?

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

All you can do is try. Go with the document and see whether they accept it.

This does warrant a complaint to the EU commission. The Spanish ought to be providing every facility for you to obtain visa.

[anfarose]

This was the plan for tomorrow, to hand in the declaration of marriage.
If they don't accept it, i guess i will have to take back my passport without going through with the application for visa. Otherwise i guess they will not process my application or put rejected stamp in passport, then it will be difficult every time i wish to apply for another visa anywhere else.

About complaining, my husband has started getting in touch with the 'solvit, your europe'. first response sounded promising, but then after been told to get in touch with the UK solvit it has not gone so good. Seems by the replies that she doesn't read all of the emails he sends, so is not well informed of our situation.

Also i have read in the Directive and heard mention before, but not fully understanding what it means
''they should provide every facility to obtain the necessary visas''?

Thanks again for your time and advice, especially, EUsmiles, Directive2004 and vinny. Just to let you know your words are very much appreciated

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

If you have troubles with the Spanish, then change your plans: get a visa to to Germany. The Germans have a generally well run visa process and a lot less stupid hassle.

Note that the European Commission is aware of this problem with marriage certificates, and I suspect the largest offender is Spain.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

If you have troubles with the Spanish, then change your plans: get a visa to to Germany. The Germans have a generally well run visa process and a lot less stupid hassle.

Note that the European Commission is aware of this problem with marriage certificates, and I suspect the largest offender is Spain.

@OP, Spain certainly insists on a rigorous and inflexible process. It is worth complaining so that it gets attention - Solvit, EU commission, MEPs. Be a pain, ensure it gets attention.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

This was the plan for tomorrow, to hand in the declaration of marriage.
If they don't accept it, i guess i will have to take back my passport without going through with the application for visa. Otherwise i guess they will not process my application or put rejected stamp in passport, then it will be difficult every time i wish to apply for another visa anywhere else.

About complaining, my husband has started getting in touch with the 'solvit, your europe'. first response sounded promising, but then after been told to get in touch with the UK solvit it has not gone so good. Seems by the replies that she doesn't read all of the emails he sends, so is not well informed of our situation.

Also i have read in the Directive and heard mention before, but not fully understanding what it means
''they should provide every facility to obtain the necessary visas''?

Thanks again for your time and advice, especially, EUsmiles, Directive2004 and vinny. Just to let you know your words are very much appreciated :)

Regarding Solvit UK, others have posted that the process was not particularly helpful. That said, no harm in trying.

There is also my Europe advise. You never know, keep at them all.

[anfarose]

First my apologies for this post turning in to more like a blog but i didn't expect the situation with the Spanish Consulate becoming as Directive2004 says so much stupid hassle since i started with my visa application.

After waiting again outside the Consulate of Spain for over 2 hours just to hand in the final document they asked for to process my visa. The woman who looked at the Declaration of marriage by my husband, signed at the British Embassy by him and the vice consul said it was not the correct document. Saying it should have been a printed document with the heading of the Embassy on the top of the page. I argued the Embassy didn't do that document for our type of case, it was more for people who had a marriage outside the UK, such as recognition of Moroccan marriages. The woman still seemed clueless and unable to understand what i was explaining to her, eventually they agreed to take the stamped declaration to show the Spanish consul tomorrow morning. Now we wait till they phone to see if they accept it in with my visa application.


It was 'your europe advice' that my husband contacted first about this situation.. They said to contact the solvit UK, in there defence i must say she replies quickly to emails. If at times missing some details in our situation. Here are the replies from Solvit UK, the last email recieved this morning.

first reply..

first reply from solvit UK

In line with Article 3.1 of Directive 2004/38/EC, in order to be eligible for EU rights your wife needs to show in the application that she is travelling with the EU national that she derives EU rights from, or that she is travelling to join EU family members who are already residing in Spain. In addition to the need to translate the documents you submit, can you also confirm that you showed evidence of travel arrangements, for example, that showed clearly that you are travelling together. Spain would be entitled to challenge any application without this evidence, as EU legislation provides for EU nationals to travel and be accompanied by their non EU family members, and not to allow non EU family members to travel independently.

If you have provided evidence of identity, the family relationship and also that you were travelling together, please forward to me a copy of the application, the supporting documents,and details of the official who refused to accept the information.

2nd reply from solvit UK


The UK is part of the EU but, because we did not join Schengen, citizens are not covered by the rights provided by Schengen. However, Directive 2004/38/EC does apply.

The Consulate should have allowed you to submit the application directly. While outside bodies such as VFS can be used, for matters such as priority applications for example with a fee imposed for the service, Member States must accept applications directly without a cost. If you can provide evidence of this response, we can take forward a complaint and ask that the application is considered directly by the Consulate instead.

In respect of the marriage documentation, marriage does not fall under EU legislation and so there are no EU rules regarding recognition of marriage certificates. I can confirm that Spain will require the document to be translated and apostilled or legalised in line with the Hague Convention of 1961, but it may be that the Consulate will also need the British Embassy to confirm that the UK would recognise the marriage as you are a UK national.

3rd reply from solvit UK

If Spain needs your marriage to be recognised in the UK, and you have the only document that the UK can issue as we do not require overseas marriages to be registered, I will pursue a complaint if this document is not accepted as part of the application.

Regards

So i guess now i wait till after the consulates phone call to see what happens next

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Don't worry about the length of your thread.

Solvit's responses are pretty much correct in all cases. Keep at them.

You can, as other suggested, try other embassies. Consider taking your business elsewhere!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Don't worry about the length of your thread.

Solvit's responses are pretty much correct in all cases. Keep at them.

You can, as other suggested, try other embassies. Consider taking your business elsewhere!

If you get a visa from Germany, you can still enter Schengen at Spain. Make Germany a long term goal!

[anfarose]

I start to envisage the option you suggested, but for now I still hope to hear from the Spanish consulate and see if they accepted that declaration we gave them.

If they refuse it, I wonder if I should ask to take my passeport back before they put the rejection stamp on it and start again the process somewhere else... but the time is getting limited and i wonder if we will make the trip.

I have just a question :
When i used to prepare a multiple-entry visa with the French consulate for my work, I was asked to always have my first entry in schengen area in France... but i worry that if i have no plan to go to France i could make it difficult with them in the future.

so i wonder if i ask for example a visa from Germany as you suggested, am i still forced to enter first in Germany? or visit there at some point in my trip and maybe need to give proof of doing so? and will the spanish also argue about not respecting this point?

As i only intend going to Spain im not likely to get an entry or exit stamp from another country in Schengen area.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

The rules on which country one is supposed to apply to are reasonably simple. The place where you intend mainly visiting, if more than one, the one where you intend staying the most time in, if none, the one you first use to enter.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I start to envisage the option you suggested, but for now I still hope to hear from the Spanish consulate and see if they accepted that declaration we gave them.

If they refuse it, I wonder if I should ask to take my passeport back before they put the rejection stamp on it and start again the process somewhere else... but the time is getting limited and i wonder if we will make the trip.

I have just a question :
When i used to prepare a multiple-entry visa with the French consulate for my work, I was asked to always have my first entry in schengen area in France... but i worry that if i have no plan to go to France i could make it difficult with them in the future.

so i wonder if i ask for example a visa from Germany as you suggested, am i still forced to enter first in Germany? or visit there at some point in my trip and maybe need to give proof of doing so? and will the spanish also argue about not respecting this point?

As i only intend going to Spain im not likely to get an entry or exit stamp from another country in Schengen area.

Can you explain why time is limited?

If you are a family member of an EU citizen, then which embassy you apply to is largely irrelevant. You have a right of free movement which comes from your relationship with the EU citizen alone. That right of free movement can not be restricted because you do not have enough money, or your plans are uncertain, or you have a minor criminal record, or even that at some point in the past you applied to the wrong Schengen embassy.

And note that which entry visa you got does not matter for subsequent Residence Card applications. Not that I would seriously recommend it, but you could even enter Spain "illegally" (along with your EU citizen spouse!), and then apply for a Residence Card (this comes from the MRAX case before the ECJ).

[anfarose]

My husband is not yet resident in Morocco, he is now between UK-Spain and Morocco till we sort that, and as he cannot spend more than 90 days here, he will have to leave soon, he spent already more than 2 months with me and our daughter... we wanted to go all together before the end of this limit to visit his parents in Spain, but i don't think we will make it especially if the spanish keep on wasting our time.

Before our child was born, we used to spend a lot of time together between Morocco and Spain, and i always respected my visa's limits (as i used to take it with France regulary for my work)... but since i'm in maternity leave, i have no reason to go to France for now, so i thought to take it through the fact that i'm EU family member and go directly to Spain, thinking wrongly that it would be easier but in fact it's more difficult than what i used to do before.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Are you planning to move to Spain right now, or is this just for a quick visit?

[anfarose]

we want just to visit my parents-in-law so our daughter can spend more time with her grandparents, but after that we plan to go back to Morocco.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

we want just to visit my parents-in-law so our daughter can spend more time with her grandparents, but after that we plan to go back to Morocco.

That is no problem. You can also move to spain if you wish. Entirely up to you and your husband.

[anfarose]

My husband did apply for residency in Spain, but because of bad advice his application was rejected. Also due to the recent attitude of the new government making everything difficult we think of somewhere more welcoming.

We had thought of investing in Bulgaria with the house prices been very good and he can do constuction. But have been told no problem for my husband been EU citizen, yet more difficult for me to get a residency there with been a Moroccan. We still are working out the best place to put our roots.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

My husband did apply for residency in Spain, but because of bad advice his application was rejected. Also due to the recent attitude of the new government making everything difficult we think of somewhere more welcoming.

We had thought of investing in Bulgaria with the house prices been very good and he can do constuction. But have been told no problem for my husband been EU citizen, yet more difficult for me to get a residency there with been a Moroccan. We still are working out the best place to put our roots.

There ought not to be a problem for non-EU family member in Bulgaria either. The key point is that the EU citizen is doing something meaningful - worker, student, self-sufficient. Non-EU family members can join EU citizen.

You are not specific as to why residency in Spain was rejected, nor why you think Bulgaria would be difficult.

[anfarose]

Due to bad advice over the documents needed from his Spanish lawyer the application for residency was rejected. Now we know better what is needed to be resident in Spain, but not sure that's the best country to be living in the near future.

For Bulgaria we haven't looked in depth so far, but was told by a friend of a friend in Bulgaria that a residency would be difficult for me to obtain. I'm not exactly sure where Bulgaria stand in the EU area and if their rules are a little different concerning immigration and the requirements for residence. Or even if they are at least pleased to accept foreigners in Bulgaria, unlike other eu countries these days.