Theresa may is merciless

[Obie]

MPH80 that may be a good idea, but that is certainly not on Mrs May's agenda at present. All that matters is how much UKIP votes she could muster.

[Ayyubi72]

Not about this particular case, but generally about majority of asylum seekers, I wonder how many so called people fleeing persecution utilise the international catapult in their countries. These catapults are capable of launching these people into sky and delivering them straight into United Kindgdom thousands of miles. Well not many people utilise these catapults.

They go to Iran, then to Turkey, then Enter an EU country called Greece. But guess what, after saving their life from persecution they do not feel relieved. They carry on to the next country to the next to the next until they end up in France. Now you see even in France their lives are not safe. In France their are death squads that go hunting for these people, and shoot them dead on sight.

So these poor guys "fleeing persecution" jump onto trucks bound for UK. These people know that in UK, lunatic left wing do gooders army is ready and waiting to fight for them and ensure they are not returned to the countries they left because of "persecution".

PS: This is one of the typical routes. There are other routes these poor people take. Thailand, fake passport to and EU country, France - UK, and many other combinations.

[MPH80]

MPH80 that may be a good idea, but that is certainly not on Mrs May's agenda at present. All that matters is how much UKIP votes she could muster.

Ok ... So let's try a 'what if'.

What if he gets his appeal ... Presents his evidence and is rejected. He goes back on hunger strike. Are we ok to deport him now?

[vinny]

See also Muhammad & Ors, R (on the application of) v Secretary of State for the Home Department [2013] EWHC 3157 (Admin) (17 October 2013) > 2ndCase: Ms Hirst (instructed by Deighton Pierce Glynn) for the Claimant (Muaza)?

(ix) He is unfit to fly (paragraph 6.52).

[MPH80]

Thanks Vinny, I've read that with great interest and I think this explains my question (why is he still in detention):

(i) IM may well be unfit to be detained in a detention centre. However he is not unfit to be detained in hospital. This in my judgment explains the medical record entries of 6 October 2013 and 10 October 2013. Ms Hirst submits that it is not open to the Defendant to say that IM can render his detention lawful by being detained somewhere else. In my judgment that is wrong. His detention is lawful. He is fit for detention in hospital. He refuses to go there. That is his decision. He does not lack the capacity to make that decision.

And indeed:

In short the Defendant submits that IM is refusing hospitalisation with capacity to do so and therefore this is a consequence of his own decision. The Defendant is fully prepared to take IM to hospital.

It is worth noting that the judge makes no comment on his fitness to travel but quotes the report from medical justice as a relevant point.

[vinny]

It is worth noting that the judge makes no comment on his fitness to travel but quotes the report from medical justice as a relevant point.

The judge is probably not a medical doctor. It's unlikely that he would presume to comment on a medical opinion without further medical advice.

[MPH80]

But without being a trained psychiatrist he makes firm statements about his mental capacity ... Which is based on the information given.

Had he been convinced of the nature of his fitness to fly I might have expected similar however the more key point is that this issue was not covered here.

M.

[Obie]

Thanks Vinny, that is the point I am seeking to make. That this man is unfit to fly. Sir Stanley Burton made the same observation, although the Court of Appeals transcript is yet to be released.

Why on earth is crazy May seeking to fly him, is a question that I have not got an answer to. Even the HO own QC acknowledge the man can only be fit to fly if put on drips.

It is outrageous that in a democracy, a western state is refusing to obey its own judiciary.

What are we suppose to say to China.

[Obie]

It was a common ground at the COA , the man is not fit to fly. Not an issue we can debate on here. Reputable doctors and physicians have said it. He has mental health issues, reputsbly psychiatrist have said so. What more can be said.

By definition, people with psychiatric problem are notvexpected to make rational decisions. I will be surprised if he did. The state has a duty of care to these vulnerable members of our society.

[MPH80]

But again Obie ... You've said something caveatted ... He wasn't fit to fly unless on a drip .... You don't know he wasn't on a drip on the plane!

This court text has revealed to me just how biased the guardian article is ... He isn't on hunger strike ... He has mental issues causing him to fear the food. He was offered to go to a secure unit and refused ...

The only thing this has confirmed is an agreement he wasn't fit to fly at that time.

M.

[Obie]

He was never going to accept drips. He had unequivocally rejected it, for fear that poison will be put in it. His counsel said this. I was fortunate to be in court on that day. I heard it first handed. I can assure you, he was not on drips when he was flown to Nigeria, during the aborted trip.

I don't think that was an caveat in the particular circumstance of the case. They were merely envisaging a possible scenerio. It was always clear that such option wasn't going to be accepted by Mr Muaza.It was merely hypothetical. I see nothing wrong with the Guardian article, it was merely stating the fact.

[MPH80]

Retracted ... Posted in frustration.

[Amber]

My thoughts are based on humanity and the precious value of our short existence. We must not forget that we are fortunate to be lucky to have been born here or to have become settled here. I wish this world would not create borders and obstacles. Need not forget that we create deprivation and destruction in other countries so that we can splash out on Black Friday or Super Monday and buy commodities and luxuries. We manufacture instability and allow tyrants in order to satisfy our own greed. We are far from innocent and have no right to say who deserves a place here and who doesn't. The ironic thing is, the people who often moan about immigration are those same people who are stuck in a rut. Driven down by the elites in the Country who ensure that the same people of the same background run everything and offer little or no opportunity to the common man. It's about time people woke up to some real, serious and personal issues rather than venting their frustrations on some individual merely trying to escape from an unimaginably more difficult life than they'll ever face.

[mrkoma2012]

I agree that removing the guy whilst on hunger strike is quite in humane.

But, it is a personal choice since he only refused to eat in the last 100days as reported out of the thousands of days spent in the UK since 2007.

Without proper evidence to support his claims; the outcome of this claim is futile.

Life is all about choices, some people think it's right to circumvent the law by being dishonest.

And, then use emotional guilt trips to gather sympathy votes to achieve their despicable act.

[ouflak1]

Still surprised that Nigeria went along with this.

Nevertheless, I believe it supports a dangerous precedent if we start allowing people to stay on the basis of hunger strikes. It puts those people in great harm, with the danger of dying, and it puts even more burden on the UK which already has a system that is over stressed as it is.

The only humane action, indeed the only moral and ethical action, is to nip this tactic in the bud before it becomes a catastrophe on a massive scale with hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people a year going on hunger strike to avoid deportation. If any of you truly care about the value and condition of human life, then you should support getting this man back to his home country as soon as possible.

[UKBA HUNTER]

Let the same ethnicity people to write in favor of this happening. But look the following and ask yourself that should we show any more mercy:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... icide.html

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/matth ... raudsters/

http://nigeriastandardnewspaper.com/ng/ ... ies-of-sc/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ities.html

He must be sent back in Nigerian national aircraft in the presence of Nigerian authorities/doctors/charity organists to safe area within the Nigeria. And the UK authorities must sue the Nigerian government for not letting in their plane and must sue for the charges incurring afterwards.

[Believe2013]

Still surprised that Nigeria went along with this.

Nevertheless, I believe it supports a dangerous precedent if we start allowing people to stay on the basis of hunger strikes. It puts those people in great harm, with the danger of dying, and it puts even more burden on the UK which already has a system that is over stressed as it is.

The only humane action, indeed the only moral and ethical action, is to nip this in this tactic in the bud before it becomes a catastrophe on a massive scale with hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people a year going on hunger strike to avoid deportation. If any of you truly care about the value and condition of human life, then you should support getting this man back to his home country as soon as possible.

The roots of democracy are fundamentally grounded in mutual respect, personal responsibility, and social accountability. Democracy is also about giving each person a dignified voice in the decision-making processes in those institutions that guide and regulate our lives. We know far too little about this case to comment fully. Our moral obligation as fellow human beings is to one another. Time is of essence and this guy is nearing death. He is in a very fragile mental state of mind so medical assistance is what he needs rather than being embroiled in a game of political football. This man's life is far more important than fears of setting precedents

[Believe2013]

Let the same ethnicity people to write in favor of this happening. But look the following and ask yourself that should we show any more mercy:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... icide.html

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/matth ... raudsters/

http://nigeriastandardnewspaper.com/ng/ ... th-128-bad quality-identities-sing-in-uk-jaildefraud-banks-to-636000-dupes-mortgage-lenders-govt-agencies-involves-in-series-of-sc/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ities.html

He must be sent back in Nigerian national aircraft in the presence of Nigerian authorities/doctors/charity organists to safe area within the Nigeria. And the UK authorities must sue the Nigerian government for not letting in their plane and must sue for the charges incurring afterwards.

Perhaps stopping reading such odious articles from newspapers such as the daily mail

[UKBA HUNTER]

Let the same ethnicity people to write in favor of this happening. But look the following and ask yourself that should we show any more mercy:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... icide.html

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/matth ... raudsters/

http://nigeriastandardnewspaper.com/ng/ ... th-128-bad quality-identities-sing-in-uk-jaildefraud-banks-to-636000-dupes-mortgage-lenders-govt-agencies-involves-in-series-of-sc/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ities.html

He must be sent back in Nigerian national aircraft in the presence of Nigerian authorities/doctors/charity organists to safe area within the Nigeria. And the UK authorities must sue the Nigerian government for not letting in their plane and must sue for the charges incurring afterwards.

Perhaps stopping reading such odious articles from newspapers such as the daily mail

these are only few ones which i quoted because i donot want to finish alone the whole page. The same realities news also published in newspapers than daily mail.

[ouflak1]

This man's life is far more important than fears of setting precedents.

Not when that precedent is clearly for more suffering and almost certainly some deaths. His life isn't worth all of those future lives which are sure to come, if we allow his actions to succeed.

[MPH80]

Still surprised that Nigeria went along with this.

Nevertheless, I believe it supports a dangerous precedent if we start allowing people to stay on the basis of hunger strikes. It puts those people in great harm, with the danger of dying, and it puts even more burden on the UK which already has a system that is over stressed as it is.

The only humane action, indeed the only moral and ethical action, is to nip this in this tactic in the bud before it becomes a catastrophe on a massive scale with hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people a year going on hunger strike to avoid deportation. If any of you truly care about the value and condition of human life, then you should support getting this man back to his home country as soon as possible.

The roots of democracy are fundamentally grounded in mutual respect, personal responsibility, and social accountability. Democracy is also about giving each person a dignified voice in the decision-making processes in those institutions that guide and regulate our lives. We know far too little about this case to comment fully. Our moral obligation as fellow human beings is to one another. Time is of essence and this guy is nearing death. He is in a very fragile mental state of mind so medical assistance is what he needs rather than being embroiled in a game of political football. This man's life is far more important than fears of setting precedents

But if you read the judgement you'll find he's refusing the medical treatment that would help him.

We've go several options:

1. Return him in his current state. This is dangerous to his life
2. Keep him where he is ... He will continue to refuse food and die ... The government cannot legally allow this.
3. Move him to a secure unit. He's refused to go.
4. Section him into a secure unit. Something professionals appear to have refused to do.
5. Force medical treatment on him. Without a court order they cannot do this.
6. Release him. This is clearly the wrong move as the man is illegal here and will, as has been said, open the floodgates on this type of action.

So knowing that he's refusing treatment in the current detention facility and has refused to be moved to a secure hospital ... I'm curious to know what those discussing compassion would do.

It is worth noting the guardian is quoted in October as saying there are 17 others on hunger strike already.

I'm open to discussing options 7 onwards if someone has other options.

[Obie]

The problem is, UKBA fails to make lawful and well informed decision. People are kept in detention for riduculous length of time when there is no reasonable prospect of them being removed for one rreason or another. UKBA asks the court to wait and assess the resolve of these individual, as they said in MR Muaza's case in their submission before Stewart.

Now that they are at death point, seeking to remove them to a country where they fear for their safety, waste tax payers money, appear tough against their rivals, by seeking to impose policies which even Nigel Farage has described as unBritish.

My view is that, the life of an individual is of the utmost importance to me, and any right thinking and decent human being with any degree of humanity in them, than a floodgate argument.

What is it with segment of the British population, getting scared about immigrant, the european union, flood gate. Look at Germany , Netherlands , Norway. You dont exoerience this level of Zenophobia and lovely.

[MPH80]

There is nothing xenophobic or bigoted at looking at the consequences of actions. I am deeply offended at being tarred with that brush and I would sincerely appreciate an apology.

If you've followed me you'll know my wife is an immigrant and I've been helping people here work within the bounds of the law to become immigrants. I've been a stern critic of some of the immigration rules - but equally I've never encouraged anyone to do anything outside of those rules.

This man has put himself in this position. Judges have ruled he has the mental competency to decide his own fate. He has decided to refuse medical treatment.

Our options are exactly as I've outlined above within the bounds of the law.

To make an exception in this case is to open a door.

Let's say we do release him. Let's say he gets nursed back to health. What do we do about the next person who tries this ... or the person after that ... do we put a formal 'break point' in where it's ok to release someone now? Is it 30 days on hunger strike? 60? 90? 100? What if that person has committed a serious crime? Do we now ignore it and release them into the community?

There has to be a line somewhere - and for me that line is staying within the rules. Changing the rules is an entirely separate debate and MUST be separated from the discussion about this man's future. He has gone through the immigration process as it stands.

Allowing his release WILL cause this to become the 'go to' tactic for anyone held in detention.

This man has chosen to starve himself. That's not my opinion - that's the opinion of the judge in the ruling we have. He has chosen to refuse treatment. Would I do that? no! But I'm not going to step in and say that he shouldn't have that right to refuse treatment.

It is not our place in a democracy to interfere with that right of refusal unless we believe he no longer has the mental capacity to make those choices.

[MPH80]

Oh - and PS - that would the oh so tolerant netherlands that produced a video to tell new immigrants exactly what the netherlands was like (with the underlying message of 'don't like it - don't come'):

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/11842116/#.Up3pBGST6p0

[Amber]

I think Obie was just generalizing, do not take it personally MPH80, your contributions are appreciated and yes, we all have our opinions, that is exactly what they are, mere opinions. However, sometimes, it gets very hard to weigh up or side with the Home Office when they waste tens if not hundreds of millions of pounds on ridiculous exercises when the money would be much better spent on welfare etc...