HSMP - THINK b4 QUITING your Home Jobs - READ my experience)

[mayana]

Life is a matter of choice and the choice you make is a decision making process and this is all about risk. The mind that is not challenged will never enjoy the fruit of existence, if you can't take risk then......
Home or Away the choice is yours so go for it. A saying goes thus; ONE MAN'S FOOD IS ANOTHER MAN'S POISON....

mayana
Be wise

[ssoct98@hotmail.com]

mayana its easy to express in wording,but in reality when anyone came here he/she knew,i knew one family who are on hsmp and working in security for survival,so its good to accept new challenges but its also better to think well before finalising any thing,but in my opinion those who get hsmp never stop in their country,they must come bcz a close door always attract everyone and those who never be here,for them uk is a close door.

[UKbound]

I had a similar experience to Syr and Rog.

When I entered the UK it was hard to find a job that was at the same level to what I left (in the US). While I experienced some discrimination (which at the time seemed overwhelming), I also ran into problems with not having UK work experience, and being overqualified for jobs with less responsibility. Even contract employment seemed out of reach. It took me 7 months to find something at a similar salary to what I left, but the role is a step down. I'm hoping after a year or two I can get back to the same level as before.

About HSMP - in several interviews the person expressed concern that I would not stay within the UK and this might be a temporary role for me. I tried my best to reassure them, but I generally didn't get the offers anyway, so it's hard to know if it was because of that specific reason, or my lack of UK experience, discrimination, some combination or those, or just that they wanted someone with specific criteria that I didn't have. In my current role, the company is a multinational with around 10k people in the UK, and the HR person contacted me several times to understand what the HSMP visa was all about. She even asked if they had to notify anyone that I was going to be working there, or provide some sort of sponsorship for me. Before I started, they contacted me again and said that they went to an expert and they needed copies of my approval letter and the supporting documentation for their files. No big deal, but it shows that even in big companies HSMP may not always be understood. So we have to do some educating also along the way, which can make things harder.

If you're having trouble finding a job, I'd recommend starting with companies that have large number of employees in your home country, or with multi-national companies.. Given that everything's global now, you have a better chance that there will be leaders from your area and the organization will have a better understanding of your skills and education, etc..

[SYH]

Your experience is similar to mine and the same insecurities the employers expressed will always be hard to assuage these fears.

The lawyers needed all that documentation because they didn't know what it was and had to investigate it. Not that they shouldn't get it for their records. Unfortunately, you will get companies and lawyers who are so risk adverse and play it safe to the extreme that you will never convince them of the authenticity of the HSMP visa.

I haven't had to explain HSMP much lately but when I did. I always told them to go to the website to educate themselves or I would send them the links. During the interview process, I explained that it is a visa based on merit, based on my qualfications verified by the Home Office. Thus, I don't need a sponsor. Second, I also personalized it to give employrs more confidence about the validity of the visa. In my circumstances, I had worked in Europe before. (That doesn't mean I worked in every single country in Europe, just a country in Europe for the people who like to misconstrue my words) I explained that the last time I was in Europe I depended on the employer to do the visa processing and he botched it up. After that, I vowed that if I would to work in Europe again, the work visa would be on my own terms and it would be within my control. When HSMP was introduced, it did just that, it gave me the control. Thus if there were any visa issues, it was up to me to resolve them, not someone else.

My response to the employer about not staying would be, "That's silly. I am someone who worked very hard putting together an application to be in the UK and paid for it myself. Any national you hire, always has the ability to be hired and leave. Someone like me wants to find a post that is longlasting so I can stabilize my situation in the UK so its not in my best interest nor am I in a position to be here today and gone tomorrow. As for the validity of the visa, that's not indicative of how long I can stay, that is an administrative issue. The HO is not going to issue visa with a free pass for 5 years. Thaey want to make sure you are using the visa so as long as I am working the visa will continue. It doesn't mean that my time is up and only have so and so time left to stay in the UK.

They always gave me feedback that the info I gave them was very helpful and my words very compelling. However, if they had to convince someone else, it wasn't them who needed the job so they probably couldn't give them as convincing an explanation which is why I always told them to have whoever had to make decision to contact me if they had any more questions.

While many jobs I turned down as being inappropriate, you do have to be flexible and that does mean you might have to take a role that you are overqualified for, if they will take you or you might need to downplay your abilities on the CV so you can be considered.

[daisy_ktm]

thanks..

[pantaiema]

ball1333

WHere did ypu get this information from. I have not read anyone in this forum have written about this in this forum but you.
Probably what you mean is it will be replace by the new tier system ?

Pantaiema

"Govt planned to stop all HSMPin next few months"
Please provide some evidence to support this statement.

[pantaiema]

Gordon

Do your math PhD in the Uk take 3-4 year. In Avarage, people finish it in 4 years (very few finish it in 3years)

Masters 35 points: duration of study 1 years after bachelor degree (5 points above Bachelor). Majority of peope in the who finish their Master's degree will finish it in 1 years. if we do math 1 year of study after Bachelor=5 points

PhD 4 years after master's degree (in avarage) after masters degree. So the points should be (35 + 4*5) = 55 points. Sofar it is only 50 points.

So if we do math the I believe 50 points for PhD degree is relevant and correct.

Pantaiema

The HSMP application process seems to place a lot of weight on earnings, but with a very high premium on PhDs otherwise (not so much on a master's, what with the points being only 5 more than a bachelor's degree). G

[pantaiema]

daisy_ktm
This is just your opinion it is not a fact. If you have relevant skills and experience agency will defenitely take you, evet without work permit they will try to get one for you. That is their job. They will be making money from you arent they.

Pantaiema

Yes , Most of agencies now will ask if HSMP if its they will not be considered for most of Contract or Perm Jobs. I think all employers instructs these agencies to do so....Its a Pity..

[ball1333]

ball1333

WHere did ypu get this information from. I have not read anyone in this forum have written about this in this forum but you.
Probably what you mean is it will be replace by the new tier system ?

Pantaiema

"Govt planned to stop all HSMPin next few months"
Please provide some evidence to support this statement.

Hi Pantiema, there's been some quote level confusion. daisy_ktm wrote the phrase in my inverted commas and I was asking daisy_ktm to provide evidence. I have no idea where daisy_ktm got the information.

[gordon]

Thank you, Pantaiema, for your sneering admonition, 'we do math':

If you assume that it takes 3-4 years to finish a PhD, and each postgraduate year is 5 points, then the suitable point assignment would be 15-20 points above the bachelor's degree, since the (average) 4 years already includes the master's degree leading into the PhD. Hence 50 points, not 55. You've double-counted.

However, where do you get the idea that a master's degree is necessarily one year? Plenty of master's level degree programs in the UK are of two years' duration (and of course, an overseas perspective in this vein could scarcely be come amiss). Consider, for instance, that MBA, MPP, MA, MSc, MFA programs in the US are nearly always two-year programs; MDiv is three-years. In the UK, MLitt and MPhil programs can often be two-year programs.

So my parenthetical comment pointed to the potential undervaluation of the master's degree, in and of itself. It can merely be something to think about. But on no account was it a comment that deserved the dismissive and deeply disrespectful 'Do your math' opening.

[pantaiema]

Dear Gordon

Thank you for your comment. In the UK although you already have Master's degree it will take you 4 years (in avarage) to finish master's degree, not 3 years. I am talking about people finish their master's degree, working and start PhD degree again.

Eventough say 3 years like you said, you will still end up with (35 + 3*5) = 50 points, still in line with the current point allocation on HSMP.

I know in the US Master's degree are vary between 1.5-2 years but I am talking about UK and this is what HSMP are based on. In the UK people who finish master's degree, majority o#f them finish it in 1 years. I agree some master's MPhil take 2 years, but majority aren't as majority of people who take master's degree are taught master's not master's by research.

Pantaiema

Thank you, Pantaiema, for your sneering admonition, 'we do math':

If you assume that it takes 3-4 years to finish a PhD, and each postgraduate year is 5 points, then the suitable point assignment would be 15-20 points above the bachelor's degree, since the (average) 4 years already includes the master's degree leading into the PhD. Hence 50 points, not 55. You've double-counted.

However, where do you get the idea that a master's degree is necessarily one year? Plenty of master's level degree programs in the UK are of two years' duration (and of course, an overseas perspective in this vein could scarcely be come amiss). Consider, for instance, that MBA, MPP, MA, MSc, MFA programs in the US are nearly always two-year programs; MDiv is three-years. In the UK, MLitt and MPhil programs can often be two-year programs.

So my parenthetical comment pointed to the potential undervaluation of the master's degree, in and of itself. It can merely be something to think about. But on no account was it a comment that deserved the dismissive and deeply disrespectful 'Do your math' opening.

[pantaiema]

Dear ball1333

I am sorry I am confused, I taught it was from you

Pantaiema

ball1333

WHere did ypu get this information from. I have not read anyone in this forum have written about this in this forum but you.
Probably what you mean is it will be replace by the new tier system ?

Pantaiema

"Govt planned to stop all HSMPin next few months"
Please provide some evidence to support this statement.

Hi Pantiema, there's been some quote level confusion. daisy_ktm wrote the phrase in my inverted commas and I was asking daisy_ktm to provide evidence. I have no idea where daisy_ktm got the information.

[PounceQuick]

Hi All,

I thought I share my HSMP experience with this board which might help other HSMP seekers to think twice before jumping..

Sorry to butt in a bit late on the thread. But I feel that I have to say something about this.

I think Daisy's post is not painting the whole picture. First you need to be able to 'spell' properly if you want to be considered in a real job in UK.

Anyway, I'm not from UK and don't have a British accent, neither do I have British experience nor is English my first language. However I have a completely different experience from you. Didn't have problem finding a good job or flat or other things.

I suspect you have a problem adjusting with the style of interview here in UK, or perhaps your CV style. For other HSMP aspirant, I suggest having a look on UK job boards about CV & interview advice. Speak clearly and definitely no spelling mistakes on your CV.

HTH

[SYH]

I used to be a stickler about spelling because I am a top speller and highly versed in the correct usage of grammer by US standards. However, I found that the UK spells words differently and was taking my version of spelling as an indication of some deficiency on my part even though I have diplomas from top institutions. Then, my work took me to Holland and Scandanivia where they completely spell words funny from my point of view and their mastery of English is awesome, despite their funky spelling of English. Anyone whose native language is not English has my admiration and I believe they are extremely bright and I won't discount them because of poor spelling.

[push]

Dear SYH,

Was just curious to know about the differences in the spellings in UK. I have been in UK for sometime now and I have not noted any difference in the spellings when compared to India - where I come from - because India follows the same system. The differences are perceptible when one compares UK to US, obviously.

So when you say there are differences, the comparison is with US -right?

regards,

push

I used to be a stickler about spelling because I am a top speller and highly versed in the correct usage of grammer by US standards. However, I found that the UK spells words differently and was taking my version of spelling as an indication of some deficiency on my part even though I have diplomas from top institutions. Then, my work took me to Holland and Scandanivia where they completely spell words funny from my point of view and their mastery of English is awesome, despite their funky spelling of English. Anyone whose native language is not English has my admiration and I believe they are extremely bright and I won't discount them because of poor spelling.

[PounceQuick]

Anyone whose native language is not English has my admiration and I believe they are extremely bright and I won't discount them because of poor spelling.

I admire anyone who can speak more than 1 language. However we're talking a professional resume here, for a highly paid job. You have to be professional in any way possible.

[Rog]

I have seen that some of the local British candidates in my work place do not have a perfect grammatical use of English especially in e-mails and make spelling mistakes and also have a limited vocabulary. I guess this does not come in their way as they are British by birth and fair enough as outsiders we are expected to have to have perfect English.

[SYH]

Clearly you have to prove yourself more so as a foreignor
All I was saying regarding spelling is that I try not to judge someone based on poor spelling. While you are absolutely right, your CV has to straight on, as competition is fierce and they are looking for any reason to screen you out to reduce the numbers of whom to consider.
Use spell check for sure.

[ball1333]

With the way that so many British Asians have integrated into UK society, it's possible that 2 people with the same name could apply for the same job. One could have been born in London, the other in Chennai. Say they have equivalent work experience of 3 years in the same industry, one in the UK and one in India.

If the one born in London has a better command of English, good spelling, and a good degree from a well-known UK university (say, Durham), he will get the job over his name-twin if the name-twin has dodgy English, poor spelling, and a degree from a uni that the hiring manager has never heard of.

That's not beloved or discrimination. That's hiring the better candidate for the job. If a British Asian Cambridge grad who couldn't speak any Indian languages applied for a job in India that required him to speak an Indian language, he would be a poor candidate and it wouldn't be beloved or discrimination for him to be refused!

All I'm saying is think about it from the employer's perspective before crying beloved or discrimination. If you're on the payroll, you represent the employer. If a customer can't understand you or you misunderstand a work order, the employer looks bad in the eyes of the customer. Every company's success depends on its reputation. A company seeks to improve or at least maintain its reputation with every staffing decision. Hiring decisions are not judgments of your character or your capability. Hiring decisions are based on the employer's perception of whether you will add value to their organisation right now.

[SYH]

I am not sure that people are crying facial discrimination but more so they are at a disadvantage. In any case, the natives aren't any better qualified in light of their poor customer service and couldn't be bothered attitude.

[LankanFunkin]

Anyway, I'm not from UK and don't have a British accent, neither do I have British experience nor is English my first language. However I have a completely different experience from you. Didn't have problem finding a good job or flat or other things.

I suspect you have a problem adjusting with the style of interview here in UK, or perhaps your CV style. For other HSMP aspirant, I suggest having a look on UK job boards about CV & interview advice. Speak clearly and definitely no spelling mistakes on your CV.

HTH

All I'm saying is think about it from the employer's perspective before crying beloved or discrimination. If you're on the payroll, you represent the employer. If a customer can't understand you or you misunderstand a work order, the employer looks bad in the eyes of the customer. Every company's success depends on its reputation. A company seeks to improve or at least maintain its reputation with every staffing decision. Hiring decisions are not judgments of your character or your capability. Hiring decisions are based on the employer's perception of whether you will add value to their organisation right now.

Agreed and agreed. Great posts by ball & pouncequick.

Guys, look - the HSMP is really a good deal, vs. the H-1b and the likes. But its not for everybody. First you got to be able to live up to it - be highly skilled (and I don't mean as a paper-pusher cum manager at your local IT firm), and behave like one. Write an outstanding CV, and send it in with a killer cover letter - look up monster, use your university's career resources department, or just google search for some effective tips and tricks. Go into an interview and be confidant. Learn about different interviewing styles. Know that some will give you a bit of a hard time, but you over-coming them is what would really put you in a better position. Close your interview with good insightful questions, and try and find out if they have any reservations (and then try to rebut them!). You have to be a sharp, and you can't go in expecting a cakewalk like when you got your job somewhere else (generally speaking, i found interviews in India and Sri Lanka to be really easy vs UK and US).

Also, there seems to be a plethora of HSMP IT folks on this forum. Guys, I hope you understand that things might be a little tougher for you, given that there is more of a IT talent surplus, than say something niche like equity analysts who specialize in the underwater basket weaving sector. Laws of supply and demand are in effect, so if you are being tabled against an identical candidate who is a citizen, chances are citizen wins. Maybe it would be good to enhance your skillsets, by say specializing in something, or gaining some more relevant certifications. Whatever to make you more competitive and attractive in the employer's eyes.

Hope my 2 pence helps...

[mayana]

so many hasty generalization here but don't ignore what daisy_ktm is saying!!! its either you are over qualified, no u.k experience or visa has some restriction cos its a terminal one and no company wants to invest so much on you only for you to leave especially if HSMP is not extended.EU citizen are better placed too. So the only option is to take up contractual, temp and self employment.

mayana
Be wise

[topoftheworld]

I agree with LankanFunkin.

"High Skilled" migrants should be able to live up to the name.

1 Year initial visa used to be a problem when HSMP was relataively new and most of the Employers/Recruitment agencies hadn't heard about it.

But, as of today many employers/agencies are well aware of HSMP and its workings (i.e. initial 1-2 years visa and extension afterwards etc.).

I have started my first job on HSMP in Jan 2005. I never had any issues regarding visa. I did have a number of interviews with some of the Blue Chip companies in Lonodn and I didn't get through a couple of them. But, that was purely for reasons other than my immigration status.

As a migrant, initially I wasn't very confident because I didn't have much cultural knowledge, general way of communicating, enough work experience in the UK etc. But, over time I have gained these and I feel much more confident now.

Whatever country one lives in, he/she has to adapt or try to adapt the way of life. Work culture, general communication skills, mannerisms etc. may be different in UK from where you have come from. One needs to accept these and try to adapt. This takes time but it is definitely achievable with right and positive attitude.

With hard skills, it is very important to have soft skills to make a good,successfuly life personally and professionally in this country (and any other country for that matter).

My 2 cents.

[LondonBlonde]

High Skilled" migrants should be able to live up to the name.

Have you read up on the new rules? Only tier one will be 'highly skilled', and unless you have a phd AND a specialty (GPs will not make it), then you will probably not fall under this category. It's likely that we will be lumped in with work permit visa holders at tiers 2 and 3.

Try not to make too much of the label you have now. Byrne doesn't think it applies to us.

LondonBlonde

[gordon]

But it sounds like the new tier 1 will include all those in HSMP who qualify or renew their leave under the post-Nov-06 rules ('the new rules'), which means that it seems very possible for people with less than a PhD to remain in that category. What proportion of pre-Nov-06 HSMP visaholders will fail to meet the revised pass-mark ? I've read estimates from 20% to 90%, which seems an inordinately and uninformatively wide range.

I thought Byrne's statements were in large part based on the March 2006 paper 'Making migration work for Britain'; while that document suggests that there may be forward changes in minimum salary and point assignments for degrees, has there been official discussion since as to what shape those further changes would take ? Are discussants here otherwise referring to a later position paper ?

I've not seen any statistics that indicate average schooling level, average income, etc for HSMP visaholders. Are these statistics collected and published anywhere ?

AG