deception ILR refused

[hellonewhere]

Hi Guys,

After going through all the earlier comments, i am thinking if my case is somewhat similar to the OP.
My ILR is due in July and Iam bit worried about my initial application.

Initial application: Tier1 2010 - Employed
Tier 1 Extension : 2012 (Employed + Limited company director)
ILR: july 2015 (Limited Company Director)

The initial company i was employed is dissolved now and Iam not sure if they have paid any taxes. All I got were payslips and no P60/P45. I used them for my initial application by post and it was successful. I got extension fine as an employee of another company + ltd company director. Last year my wife got PBS dependent visa with my ltd company docs without any issues.

Now what iam concerned is, if my initial employer hadn't paid my tax, will UKBA hold me responsible and reject my ILR??
Please need some expert advise here

Have a look at your payslip and check whether NI and tax was deducted or not?.

Also, there's a sticky on the forum, where you have the details of how to contact HMRC, to request missing P60s.

[4s6s]

Have a look at your payslip and check whether NI and tax was deducted or not?.

Also, there's a sticky on the forum, where you have the details of how to contact HMRC, to request missing P60s.

Thank you hellonewhere for your reply.

And yes, I have NI and PAYE deducted in those payslips. I had no doubt until I saw this thread and checked the company to find out its been dissolved to my shock.

I have P60s for all the 5 years of Tier 1 period. So can I just ask HMRC to send the P60 of 5 years ago?? How long do they have records for?? Also I applied for Subject Access Request with UKBA this morning.

Another question - In worst case, if I find out from HMRC that the company hasn't paid any taxes on my behalf, what are my options? Do i have to let the case worker know about it before hand?

[4s6s]

HI 4s6s , similar situation

Are you thinking of going to the PEO with a solicitor?

[grace4drace]

Hi Guys,

After going through all the earlier comments, i am thinking if my case is somewhat similar to the OP.
My ILR is due in July and Iam bit worried about my initial application.

Initial application: Tier1 2010 - Employed
Tier 1 Extension : 2012 (Employed + Limited company director)
ILR: july 2015 (Limited Company Director)

The initial company i was employed is dissolved now and Iam not sure if they have paid any taxes. All I got were payslips and no P60/P45. I used them for my initial application by post and it was successful. I got extension fine as an employee of another company + ltd company director. Last year my wife got PBS dependent visa with my ltd company docs without any issues.

Now what iam concerned is, if my initial employer hadn't paid my tax, will UKBA hold me responsible and reject my ILR??
Please need some expert advise here

Potentially, it could be a problem, but what I am not sure is if UKBA will always check HMRC data, or only does so in some cases. Either way, if you could rectify it prior, then better.

[hellonewhere]

Have a look at your payslip and check whether NI and tax was deducted or not?.

Also, there's a sticky on the forum, where you have the details of how to contact HMRC, to request missing P60s.

Thank you hellonewhere for your reply.

And yes, I have NI and PAYE deducted in those payslips. I had no doubt until I saw this thread and checked the company to find out its been dissolved to my shock.

I have P60s for all the 5 years of Tier 1 period. So can I just ask HMRC to send the P60 of 5 years ago?? How long do they have records for?? Also I applied for Subject Access Request with UKBA this morning.

Another question - In worst case, if I find out from HMRC that the company hasn't paid any taxes on my behalf, what are my options? Do i have to let the case worker know about it before hand?

Hi,

I don't know for how long HMRC can send you the P60s etc. for; I have never requested for them myself.
Please call HMRC and enquire yourself.

As far as you are concerned, as an employee you have paid the tax and NI, clearly evidenced by your payslips.

Now whether the company concerned haven't paid the PAYE to HMRC isn't your responsibility.
That's to do with the company and HMRC.

[hellonewhere]

@4s6s - just to elaborate on this - due to these issues of employers not paying the PAYE, HMRC started RTI submission, to avoid such situations.

The sad thing is unless you get in trouble, you wouldn't know whether your employer paid the tax and NI on your behalf.

But when you call them, they can tell you whether the tax and NI was paid on your behalf or not.

Incase, it wasn't, you can explain the issue to HMRC and send in your payslips as proof and they will decide on the best course of action.

[4s6s]

@4s6s - just to elaborate on this - due to these issues of employers not paying the PAYE, HMRC started RTI submission, to avoid such situations.

The sad thing is unless you get in trouble, you wouldn't know whether your employer paid the tax and NI on your behalf.

But when you call them, they can tell you whether the tax and NI was paid on your behalf or not.

Incase, it wasn't, you can explain the issue to HMRC and send in your payslips as proof and they will decide on the best course of action.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts on this issue. I have been trying to call HMRC since this morning and I couldn't get through. So while I keep trying, I want to make sure I do things right but not sure how i should go about it as I have only 2 months before I can apply. Do you think going to the PEO with a solicitor will do any good? And does it help if I book an appointment on Saturday??

I feel like stupid for realising it so late. Iam losing sleep over it now.

[4s6s]

Potentially, it could be a problem, but what I am not sure is if UKBA will always check HMRC data, or only does so in some cases. Either way, if you could rectify it prior, then better.

I don't know how to rectify it. I would really appreciate if you have any ideas. Thanks.

[jayacpr]

What if they say no , Should we pay again , NI and tax ??

[hellonewhere]

@4s6s - just to elaborate on this - due to these issues of employers not paying the PAYE, HMRC started RTI submission, to avoid such situations.

The sad thing is unless you get in trouble, you wouldn't know whether your employer paid the tax and NI on your behalf.

But when you call them, they can tell you whether the tax and NI was paid on your behalf or not.

Incase, it wasn't, you can explain the issue to HMRC and send in your payslips as proof and they will decide on the best course of action.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts on this issue. I have been trying to call HMRC since this morning and I couldn't get through. So while I keep trying, I want to make sure I do things right but not sure how i should go about it as I have only 2 months before I can apply. Do you think going to the PEO with a solicitor will do any good? And does it help if I book an appointment on Saturday??

I feel like stupid for realising it so late. Iam losing sleep over it now.

Please don't worry. I didn't mean to make you worried. At least you have time and can sort out these things.

HMRC doesn't answer calls quickly; just keep on trying.

I don't know what good will a solicitor do as you are the one who has to answer the questions etc.

To be fair, you have payslips clearly demonstrating that you were up to date with the tax and NI payments.

Whether or not, the employer paid that to HMRC is certainly not your responsibility and that's something which you ideally want to clarify and get in writing from HMRC.

If it's not your fault, you won't be penalised rest assured.

[hellonewhere]

What if they say no , Should we pay again , NI and tax ??

You need to discuss this with HMRC.

[4s6s]

Please don't worry. I didn't mean to make you worried. At least you have time and can sort out these things.

HMRC doesn't answer calls quickly; just keep on trying.

I don't know what good will a solicitor do as you are the one who has to answer the questions etc.

To be fair, you have payslips clearly demonstrating that you were up to date with the tax and NI payments.

Whether or not, the employer paid that to HMRC is certainly not your responsibility and that's something which you ideally want to clarify and get in writing from HMRC.

If it's not your fault, you won't be penalised rest assured.

Thank you hellonewhere for your prompt replies, I really appreciate your time for answering these.
Firstly I want to check with HMRC and find out where I stand and what I can do about it.

I will let you guys know once I talk to them.

[hellonewhere]

@4s6s - just to elaborate on this - due to these issues of employers not paying the PAYE, HMRC started RTI submission, to avoid such situations.

The sad thing is unless you get in trouble, you wouldn't know whether your employer paid the tax and NI on your behalf.

But when you call them, they can tell you whether the tax and NI was paid on your behalf or not.

Incase, it wasn't, you can explain the issue to HMRC and send in your payslips as proof and they will decide on the best course of action.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts on this issue. I have been trying to call HMRC since this morning and I couldn't get through. So while I keep trying, I want to make sure I do things right but not sure how i should go about it as I have only 2 months before I can apply. Do you think going to the PEO with a solicitor will do any good? And does it help if I book an appointment on Saturday??

I feel like stupid for realising it so late. Iam losing sleep over it now.

To ease your mind;

If the employer hasn't paid over the tax and NIC, BUT the employee has payslips which prove that they suffered tax and NIC deductions, HMRC will usually leave the employee alone and go after the employer instead.

If the employee doesn't have payslips, it is not that straight forward. Employee can't prove they have had tax and NIC deducted, nor the amounts deducted. In this scenario, it is quite likely HMRC would go after the employee if they couldn't go after the employer (i.e. they went bust or disappeared), or if there is doubt as to employment status.

My advice is to have your payslips, P60s and P45. Once payslips are held, then the employee is probably safe from future challenge, whether or not the employer pays the tax/NIC over. Without payslips, they are in a very poor position.

The employer has a legal responsibility to make the deductions and pay them to the Revenue. There is no onus whatsoever on the employee to check that this is being done.

HMRC won't chase you if your employer didn't pay the PAYE to them. As long as you can prove that it was deducted by evidence of payslips.

[4s6s]

To ease your mind;

If the employer hasn't paid over the tax and NIC, BUT the employee has payslips which prove that they suffered tax and NIC deductions, HMRC will usually leave the employee alone and go after the employer instead.

If the employee doesn't have payslips, it is not that straight forward. Employee can't prove they have had tax and NIC deducted, nor the amounts deducted. In this scenario, it is quite likely HMRC would go after the employee if they couldn't go after the employer (i.e. they went bust or disappeared), or if there is doubt as to employment status.

My advice is to have your payslips, P60s and P45. Once payslips are held, then the employee is probably safe from future challenge, whether or not the employer pays the tax/NIC over. Without payslips, they are in a very poor position.

The employer has a legal responsibility to make the deductions and pay them to the Revenue. There is no onus whatsoever on the employee to check that this is being done.

HMRC won't chase you if your employer didn't pay the PAYE to them. As long as you can prove that it was deducted by evidence of payslips.

This is certainly assuring. I couldn't thank you enough for all the valuable information you have provided.

However, Iam not sure how co-operating HMRC would be, as this employment was 5 years ago. Fingers Crossed.

[hellonewhere]

To ease your mind;

If the employer hasn't paid over the tax and NIC, BUT the employee has payslips which prove that they suffered tax and NIC deductions, HMRC will usually leave the employee alone and go after the employer instead.

If the employee doesn't have payslips, it is not that straight forward. Employee can't prove they have had tax and NIC deducted, nor the amounts deducted. In this scenario, it is quite likely HMRC would go after the employee if they couldn't go after the employer (i.e. they went bust or disappeared), or if there is doubt as to employment status.

My advice is to have your payslips, P60s and P45. Once payslips are held, then the employee is probably safe from future challenge, whether or not the employer pays the tax/NIC over. Without payslips, they are in a very poor position.

The employer has a legal responsibility to make the deductions and pay them to the Revenue. There is no onus whatsoever on the employee to check that this is being done.

HMRC won't chase you if your employer didn't pay the PAYE to them. As long as you can prove that it was deducted by evidence of payslips.

This is certainly assuring. I couldn't thank you enough for all the valuable information you have provided.

However, Iam not sure how co-operating HMRC would be, as this employment was 5 years ago. Fingers Crossed.

Have your NI number and payslips ready when you call them, it should be fine.
Don't worry. Keep us updated. Thanks

[jayacpr]

Thank you everyone .. please update 4s6s after you speak HRMC.
thank you

[argus7]

It also depends on the tax code used , Was this a second income or main income. If second income generally tax is cut at 20% as your personal allowances are used by the main employer. What HMRC does is then clubs both income and cuts remaining 20% tax in the next tax years.

Check your P800. You should get if tax paid is underpaid or overpaid.
Employer History showing missing data?

[t123456789]

applied for ILR Last month ,but Its been refused ,as i was alleged used false payslips when i applied for tier 1, but they extend my tier 1 extension after that . now after 5 years , they said me this reason, i am here from last 8 years and nothing wrong has been done , everything is complete legal.

...

a applied by by premium service. i am not working in that company .

in 2010 when the tier 1 came , we have to show £20000 and i was having £8000 short . for that some guy came to me and said there is legal but in direct way and u have to pay tax on it. he make me as an IT consultant and transfered me £2000 in my account for 4 months . then i stopped , but i paid insurance and tax . the people (which i found out now ) had been caught and either deported or left .

...

i have the proof that i paid taxes , also home office except it. but what they saying is i paid them money and they paid me back into my account . its like a circulation of money .

For anyone that's confused, here's what this person has done.

He was £8000 short for applying for a visa.
He gives a company £8000 and they pay it back to him at £2000/month for 4 months.
It's declared as a salary, he pays NI and PAYE/tax on it and the company give him payslips. (Really, they would just give him £8000 as an IT consultant from the kindness of their hearts?)
He takes the payslips and bank statements to the HO, and now it looks like he earns £20000, not £12000.
The HO gives him a visa but later the HO realises this is a scam company.
The HO blacklists the company, the people involved in the company all leave because they'd probably face criminal charges.
Now OP applies for ILR, the HO checks his previous applications, notices that he used a scam company and ban him for deception.

There is nothing legal about this, OP is lucky he's not going to jail for tax fraud. The cost of prosecuting is probably more than throwing him out the country. The only reason OP got the visa in the first place was because he used deception.

[argus7]

Isnt this the sole reason why tier 1 g was abused and led to the closure.

HO is getting after such scam companies all the time making it easy for HMRC to penalise them

[argus7]

Also will be interesting to see some cases in which fraud income has been shown to ho and nothing declated to hmrc and dwp.

In that case what happens to applicant if that company is still trading and what if that company turns out to be a tier 2 sponsor.

[jayacpr]

is there any list of scam companies ??
why didnt they act when he had an extension ???? why in the time ILR??

[Wanderer]

is there any list of scam companies ??
why didnt they act when he had an extension ???? why in the time ILR??

Because the checks are more thorough now and there is much more connectivity between government agencies.

Fraud is fraud whether it was initially missed or not. Does driving at 140mph on the motorway and not being caught mean no offence was committed?

[t123456789]

They didn't routinely start checking HMRC data till recently, the mou was only signed a couple of years ago. They know they'll eventually catch these people when they renew their visas, so there is no reason to go back and check everyone.

Google for: UKBA HMRC mou

[anumkh]

Hi all after reading all the conversation I have a question. When I have applied my first tier 1 application back in 2010 , I have claimed that I am earning 29k ( calculated on the basis of Gross pay every month) and was approved by HO. But when I have received my P60 it shows only 23k. I have asked my company about that and they replied because I am Travel and sub scheme so ( I have no idea what is that ) so they are paying tax on my total gross pay and they paying back some amount of money into my account every month , that's why I am earning more money each month. ( Complex to understand for me thoug ) and this a Govt approved scheme. After that I got my extension through a different company. Now I am reading all this bit worried does it effects me on ILR application ? Because I claimed 29 k but my company pay tax on 23k . Kindly advise .

[hellonewhere]

Hi all after reading all the conversation I have a question. When I have applied my first tier 1 application back in 2010 , I have claimed that I am earning 29k ( calculated on the basis of Gross pay every month) and was approved by HO. But when I have received my P60 it shows only 23k. I have asked my company about that and they replied because I am Travel and sub scheme so ( I have no idea what is that ) so they are paying tax on my total gross pay and they paying back some amount of money into my account every month , that's why I am earning more money each month. ( Complex to understand for me thoug ) and this a Govt approved scheme. After that I got my extension through a different company. Now I am reading all this bit worried does it effects me on ILR application ? Because I claimed 29 k but my company pay tax on 23k . Kindly advise .

In most travel and subsistence schemes, the expenses paid to the worker for travelling to a temporary workplace are not paid on top of the worker’s salary. Instead, the worker enters into a salary sacrifice arrangement, where he “sacrifices” part of his salary, which reduces the amount of pay subject to tax and NICs. The travel expenses are then paid to the worker, in
addition to this reduced pay, and are free of tax and NICs.

Many temporary workers, including those who are paid at or near the National Minimum Wage (NMW), participate in travel and subsistence schemes operated by some Employment Businesses and umbrella companies. These schemes take advantage of the tax relief and the disregards that exist for the purposesof National Insurance Contributions (NICs) in relation to travel from home to temporary workplace. By creating a single employment contract for each worker, these schemes convert what would otherwise be a series of permanent workplaces (for which there is no tax relief available on travel expenses) into temporary
workplaces (for which tax relief on travel expensesis due). Workers agree that an amount of pay, which would otherwise be subject to tax and NICs, is replaced with expenses payments for travel to a temporary workplace. In this way, these schemes deliver tax and NICs savings for workers. Also, the Employment Businesses or umbrella companies save employer’s NICs on the
pay which has been replaced with tax and NICs free travel expenses.