Application for Permanent Residence Card refused.Help/advice

[CR001]

@noajthan, the OP is unable to utilise PM function until 30 posts have been made.

@CR001 you help those of us with heads in the clouds keep our feet on the ground.

Awwww

It used to be 10 posts, but it has been increased recently due to #T1Gtaxgate

[secret.simon]

The CSI is not mentioned at all in the reasons why my application has been rejected.

That does not mean that that can't be raised at a later date.

The good thing and bad thing about EU law is that it is purely binary. You get either 100% or 0%. There is no via media, unlike with UK law.

[noajthan]

The CSI is not mentioned at all in the reasons why my application has been rejected.

As HO have advised you...

Whilst it is accepted you have been a student and are currently employed, the first six months of jobseeking would have been accepted as exercising treaty rights. It is noted that you have been a jobseeker for 4 year the United Kingdom from 2011 to 2015 as stated in your application form and therefore anything over the first 6 months whilst jobseeking can not be accepted as exercising treaty rights in the United Kingdom. As a result, this department is unable to establish that you have been exercising Treaty rights in the United Kingdom for a continuous period of 5 years whilst being a student, a job seeker and employed.

Your student years are questionable if no CSI / EHIC - a student RC may save you (by skin of your teeth) if you had one then.

HO has morphed whatever you did from 2011-2015 or so into jobseeking - and retrospectively applied their 2014 rules to disregard the whole period.

It would help members to help you decide if anything can be retrieved from this if you can post at least edited highlights of your timeline. (Up to you ofcourse).

And 12 calendar days since date of your HO letter ends about today or tomorrow, (doesn't it?).
So any appeal needs to be filed tout suite.

Worst case you can sort out your timeline (& categories of qualified person at each point in time), to decide if you have a viable 5-year continuous period you can use;
if so appeal &/or apply again asap.

'Worst worst case' it will help give you a clearer idea of when in the future you may automatically acquire PR.

[walkthisway]

Oct 2010 to Oct 2011 University.

signed on Oct 2011

2012 JSA

2013 JSA
Signed off in Oct-Nov. worked until end of December. Agency temporary work.

January 2014 Signed on again
May signed of. I started working in a call centre (0 hours contracts) until July/August, then signed on again.
In November I started working in retail (0 hours contracts) until the end of the year.

Jan 2015 signed on again
End of March signed off. In April I went self Employed as I had some occasional well paid assignments.
From August I have a long term job.

[walkthisway]

Before signing of for the last time in March 2015 I also had (for the first time) that famous interview to see if I had good prospects of work, and I told them that I had an interview with the company I'm currently working for. Unfortunately it took about 4 months before I started working with them, as the recruiting process was very slow. But I showed all the documents to an advisor and it was confirmed with a letter at home that I had good prospects of work.

[noajthan]

Oct 2010 to Oct 2011 University.

signed on Oct 2011

2012 JSA

2013 JSA
Signed off in Oct-Nov. worked until end of December. Agency temporary work.

January 2014 Signed on again
May signed of. I started working in a call centre (0 hours contracts) until July/August, then signed on again.
In November I started working in retail (0 hours contracts) until the end of the year.

Jan 2015 signed on again
End of March signed off. In April I went self Employed as I had some occasional well paid assignments.
From August I have a long term job.

With no EHIC or CSI your student year will not be counted as exercising treaty rights - so your PR clock was not running then.
(This assumes you didn't have a student RC at the time either so you can't use a CSI-related transitional arrangement to count your student time).

Assuming you can argue the January 2014 rule about gpow should not be applied before 2014 then let's assume your PR clock started as a jobseeker in October 2011.

Oct 2011-2013: jobseeker - PR clock running...

From 2014 'gpow' rule permits you up to a maximum of 6 months as a 'jobseeker' - for you that's until May 2014.
Jan - May 2014: jobseeker - TBC that carrying over from previous period as jobseeker (under pre-2014 rules) is not a problem

May - August 2014 : worker.

Sept-Oct 2014: jobseeker - TBC if this is permitted under gpow
Nov-Dec 2014: worker

Jan-Mar 2015: jobseeker - TBC if this is permitted under gpow.

April 2015 until now: worker.

I think your first possible 'continuous' 5-year period of exercising treaty rights is potentially:
October 2011 - October 2016

That is if your gpow clock is reset & so can restart after each intervening short period as a worker - TBC.

It also assumes the periods on zero-hours contracts can be counted as being a worker - TBC.

Unfortunately, from this breakdown, it looks as if you have not yet acquired PR.
I don't know if HO performed the same analysis but it appears they reached the same conclusion.

If I have interpreted the gpow rule correctly (& tbh I'm not sure about it), you may acquire PR by October this year.

It would probably help you to hear other members' analysis of the situation too.

[walkthisway]

I'm totally fine if I just have to wait other few months. The problem is that I need to prove that the rules for jobseekers were different some years ago. That's the official reason why my application has been rejected so far. They made retroactive the current rules. For this reason I thought that maybe a lawyer can explain/justify every single period of my timeline. I guess they would take more seriously the application if backed by a competent figure.

[18august2014]

Re GPoW, the following may help:

https://www.freemovement.org.uk/benefit ... 4-changes/
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... v2am31.pdf
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... -16-15.pdf

[walkthisway]

The appeal as I said costs money. So if I do it, I wanna be sure to do it right and use strong reasons behind it.
Therefore the use of an expert would be very useful for that.

At this stage I'm still not sure about what to do.

If it's confirmed that my university year is lost for not being insured, than definitely I need to wait for more time before applying. But once I apply again, I need to be sure that I get it right and clarify that when I was on JSA in the previous years I was using Treaty Rights. Otherwise it will be refused again and then I will have to appeal...losing more time and money

I would be really grateful if you could recommend me somebody competent. A lawyer or a firm that I can speak with, that knows the subject really well.

[noajthan]

The appeal as I said costs money. So if I do it, I wanna be sure to do it right and use strong reasons behind it.
Therefore the use of an expert would be very useful for that.

At this stage I'm still not sure about what to do.

If it's confirmed that my university year is lost for not being insured, than definitely I need to wait for more time before applying. But once I apply again, I need to be sure that I get it right and clarify that when I was on JSA in the previous years I was using Treaty Rights. Otherwise it will be refused again and then I will have to appeal...losing more time and money

I would be really grateful if you could recommend me somebody competent. A lawyer or a firm that I can speak with, that knows the subject really well.

The very informative links on gpow (posted above) explain why you were called for a gpow interview.

The first article also explains about the backdated 'stock cases'; you appear to fall into that category.
The letter you were given is vital evidence if it confirms the interviewer determined you had 'gpow'.

Regarding your time as a student.
The letter you quoted appears to confirm HO (may have) accepted you were a student.
It's not clear if they actually investigated the CSI aspect to this.

This document summarises the transitional arrangements for students; it details the need for a RC (issued on a student-basis) if the applicant has no CSI or EHIC.

Ref: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... issued.pdf

Having such a RC on 20 June 2011 is a critical date if your student year is to count towards your acquiring PR.

You are correct there are a number of question marks hanging over your whole history:

• CSI or not;
  gpow & backdating (before 2014);
  whether your gpow clock can be reset by each intervening period of work;
  whether work on zero-hours contracts is considered (by HO) to be 'genuine' & effective', & not 'marginal'.
  (Especially as HO appear to have classed the whole middle period of your timeline as 'jobseeking').

As to lawyers & so on I'm not able to make a recommendation.

[18august2014]

Hello.

You may wish to contact your local Citizens Advice Bureau and/or your MP for advice and help.

I came across the following in research before:

http://www.jcwi.org.uk/about/legal-advice
http://www.migrantsrights.org.uk/about/advice-services

You may wish to check if they are competent - see below:

https://www.gov.uk/find-an-immigration-adviser

Whilst I cannot recommend a law firm, I was once told that Solicitor company name removed by moderator were good. They may consider no-win-no-fee according to their website:

Solicitor weblink removed by moderator

All the best.

[walkthisway]

Hello.

You may wish to contact your local Citizens Advice Bureau and/or your MP for advice and help.

I came across the following in research before:

http://www.jcwi.org.uk/about/legal-advice
http://www.migrantsrights.org.uk/about/advice-services

You may wish to check if they are competent - see below:

https://www.gov.uk/find-an-immigration-adviser

Whilst I cannot recommend a law firm, I was once told that solicitor company name removed by moderator were good. They may consider no-win-no-fee according to their website:

solicitor weblink removed by moderator

All the best.

Thanks man. I appreciated your links.
I just checked JCWI and I had a look at the fixed fees
"Fixed Fees
Initial Drop-In Interview & Advice (30 - 45 minutes) £75.00
Entry Clearance Applications £750 per applicant
Lodging applications with the Home Office £750 per applicant
Preparation and representation of an Immigration Appeal (inclusive of counsel fees) £1750.00.
Lodging a Judicial Review initial permission application £2500 it may also be possible to enter a conditional fee arrangement.*"

I don't know what type of service I would need for my case but it looks like there's a lot of money to be spent. I had phone conversation with another firm that charges over £200 only for the first interview. This makes me guess that the fees for their services will be even higher than JCWI.

I need to check solicitor company name removed by moderator and their no win-no fee. I'm obviously looking for something affordable otherwise I'm not sure if all of this is worth.

It's also worth being in touch with the AIRE. It might be a bit slow, but it's free.

[walkthisway]

The appeal as I said costs money. So if I do it, I wanna be sure to do it right and use strong reasons behind it.
Therefore the use of an expert would be very useful for that.

At this stage I'm still not sure about what to do.

If it's confirmed that my university year is lost for not being insured, than definitely I need to wait for more time before applying. But once I apply again, I need to be sure that I get it right and clarify that when I was on JSA in the previous years I was using Treaty Rights. Otherwise it will be refused again and then I will have to appeal...losing more time and money

I would be really grateful if you could recommend me somebody competent. A lawyer or a firm that I can speak with, that knows the subject really well.

The very informative links on gpow (posted above) explain why you were called for a gpow interview.

The first article also explains about the backdated 'stock cases'; you appear to fall into that category.
The letter you were given is vital evidence if it confirms the interviewer determined you had 'gpow'.

Regarding your time as a student.
The letter you quoted appears to confirm HO (may have) accepted you were a student.
It's not clear if they actually investigated the CSI aspect to this.

This document summarises the transitional arrangements for students; it details the need for a RC (issued on a student-basis) if the applicant has no CSI or EHIC.

Ref: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... issued.pdf

Having such a RC on 20 June 2011 is a critical date if your student year is to count towards your acquiring PR.

You are correct there are a number of question marks hanging over your whole history:

• CSI or not;
  gpow & backdating (before 2014);
  whether your gpow clock can be reset by each intervening period of work;
  whether work on zero-hours contracts is considered (by HO) to be 'genuine' & effective', & not 'marginal'.
  (Especially as HO appear to have classed the whole middle period of your timeline as 'jobseeking').

As to lawyers & so on I'm not able to make a recommendation.

Yes. This case it quite messy and confusing so the help of somebody able to present it clearly would be essential.
Thanks a lot for the help you're giving me. I really appreciate that.

[walkthisway]

By the way, if the HO has classified the whole middle period as jobseeking, it's not a bad thing.
I proved and I can prove that I was registered with the Jobcentre and I qualified for JSA. That is a proof in itself that I was exercising my Treaty Rights. Am I wrong?
When the law changed and it came to the point when I had the interview about genuine prospects of work (in 2015) I also received a letter stating that I had. And then soon after I was employed.

[CR001]

Whilst I cannot recommend a law firm, I was once told that Solicitor company name removed by moderator were good. They may consider no-win-no-fee according to their website:

Solicitor weblink removed by moderator

All the best.

Please do not post or name company names and weblinks if you do not have personal, good experience with a company. Please see point 2 and point 7 of the Forum Terms & Conditions (click)

[walkthisway]

If an appeal is made, wouldn't it be easier to just contrast the two reasons why they refused the application? Concentrate just on that? Why bring up the insurance thing? Obviously if I make a new application is different.

By the way, I found out that my dad had an insurance for the whole family during the year I was at uni, and even after. Does it count? Or it has to be an insurance in the UK, and just for myself?

Thanks

[noajthan]

If an appeal is made, wouldn't it be easier to just contrast the two reasons why they refused the application? Concentrate just on that? Why bring up the insurance thing? Obviously if I make a new application is different.

By the way, I found out that my dad had an insurance for the whole family during the year I was at uni, and even after. Does it count? Or it has to be an insurance in the UK, and just for myself?

Thanks

If no valid insurance then your student period risks not counting. If that is the case your PR clock started later on, it is hopefully still running but it's too early to apply for confirmation of PR.

You do not know if the HO accepted you as a valid student or is it that, when they found another reason to reject the application (excessive jobseeker), they didn't bother looking into whether you actually had CSI.

Dad's are great aren't they.
If you father has a health policy that really covers you when you were a student then that confirms you can use that student time.
It doesn't have to be a UK policy just a valid policy that covers people in UK.

So yes it could/should count.

You may have found a way to show your PR clock really did start earlier.
If it starts earlier it may have completed 5 years already.
So then you just need to work on sorting out the jobseeking period that you failed on first time round.

The game is afoot!

[walkthisway]

Although there is the question if this insurance was valid only in my own country or it included the other european countries too. If it covered me only if I was in my own country or even if I was outside.
It's been a few years ago and it's hard to find those details and receipts of payments.

[walkthisway]

What I really need to know is how I can prove that I genuinely had prospects of work for the whole period I was under JSA. What documents do I need to prove such a thing?
I thought that the fact that I was under JSA (and so registered to the Jobcentre, and that they kept me going) was a proof in itself. If I didn't have any prospect of work, my benefits would have been stopped.

[noajthan]

What I really need to know is how I can prove that I genuinely had prospects of work for the whole period I was under JSA. What documents do I need to prove such a thing?
I thought that the fact that I was under JSA (and so registered to the Jobcentre, and that they kept me going) was a proof in itself. If I didn't have any prospect of work, my benefits would have been stopped.

See HO guidance for qualified persons, including jobseekers:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _clean.pdf
- ref page 9+

[walkthisway]

I can confirm that I was insured during the year I was at university. This insurance is valid in the whole world and it covers healthcare expenses. Hopefully it should be accepted.

Now I'm just concerned about putting together all the documents showing my prospects of work during 'the job seeker period'. I'm scared and negative about this new application attempt. I kind of feel these people at the Home Office don't know their stuff very well and we almost need to explain things in order for them to understand.

Also, I don't want to ship my Identity Card again. They already checked it the first time (can I mention that I already applied before?). They must have a copy there. I hope a photocopy this time is enough.

[walkthisway]

Hi there. Not sure if you had the chance to read my previous post but I've been considering to write a clarification page for all the documents I will attach to the application. This is because the case is quite complicated and I want them to remember the law and the rules, considering that so far these people have shown incompetence. I don't want them to reject it for the wrong reasons. How would you present it?

1st year 2010-2011 : student with insurance
2nd year 2012 : JSA
3rd year 2013 : JSA
2014 JSA + months of temporary jobs
2015 (change of the rules?) JSA until I found a full time job in the second half of the year
2016 : full time job

I will also provide letters of rejections from employers and other documents that confirm my registration to the jobcentre.

PS
Do I need to resend my document or I can mention that they already have a copy of it from the previous application? You can imagine that it's a pain to be without your document for indefinite time.

[walkthisway]

That I have been a qualified person with continuity for more than five years.
I will also include the payslips from the temporary jobs + some of my current permanent one.

[walkthisway]

Can anybody help?

[noajthan]

After filing the application you can contact HO to request original document/s be returned to you.
Many members do this.