Refusal for EU4 - Review Process and other related questions

[arz1986]

Yes. I think you need to show minimum 900 euro per month income. 205 per week is the social welfare payment in ireland. your file is on the table, you may receive decision very soon.
Good luck

[Capricorn]

Further update

I have now received a response of my review application which has come out as negative. New objections have been raised most of which can be challenged with physical documentary proof.

Does anyone know what the next step is? All the letter says that the minister will be in contact in due course but does not say what they will do and how much notice will they give.

Obie: If you are seeing this msg, is there a way I can reach out to you via PM?

[Obie]

Why did the minister not request these further documents, are they documents that you could reasonably have expected they will ask you to provide?

[arz1986]

go for judicial review in court, there is alot of no win, no fee solicitor campany, they will charge u initial fee of around 1000-1500 euro. I will not recommend to take leave to remain route or section 3 application. u can challenge the decision in 3 months. If you physical permanently living in ireland and working here.

[Capricorn]

Why did the minister not request these further documents, are they documents that you could reasonably have expected they will ask you to provide?

They alleged that they went on a medical trip during their stay in Ireland and that no proof of who paid for the flights were shown, similarly they alleged that having name on tenancy agreement (which was solely for getting RTB letter) as well as name on utility bills (which was for proof of address to open bank account) means that they are contributing to the living costs and hence either generating income from rental property abroad or have sold that property and living off that money and hence not dependant

[npayne27]

Hi,

Did you show or have proof that the rent and utility bills are being paid from your money? Like if her name is on the tenancy and utility bill in her name, did you show that you paid it or you just assumed they knew you paid it? If you just assumed and didn't show that you paid it or gave her money to pay it, do you think that is why they think she is getting money from somewhere else to pay?

I am asking because my mum -in-law is still pending review almost 3 years, and reason for refusal in first place was not showing dependency, so I sent in proof that I pay everything, instead of just assuming they know by seeing my income bank statement.

Thanks

[Capricorn]

Hi,

Did you show or have proof that the rent and utility bills are being paid from your money? Like if her name is on the tenancy and utility bill in her name, did you show that you paid it or you just assumed they knew you paid it? If you just assumed and didn't show that you paid it or gave her money to pay it, do you think that is why they think she is getting money from somewhere else to pay?

I am asking because my mum -in-law is still pending review almost 3 years, and reason for refusal in first place was not showing dependency, so I sent in proof that I pay everything, instead of just assuming they know by seeing my income bank statement.

Thanks

I guess there is a difference between assumption and facts. They can see some of the facts and just to make it difficult just make assumptions. I agree with your point that we should show as much facts are possible however some things are so simple that one overlooks them.

I did not show any proof of payments for the bills or rent but do have them if needed

[Capricorn]

Anyone knows what the process is to take the matter to court?

[Capricorn]

and also how long it takes to get a hearing date?
Are we talking weeks or months?

If months then are we talking like over 10-12 months?

[arz1986]

around 18 to 24 months in court hearing. Try to check UK option as well. if it is possible for you, surinder singh route.

[Capricorn]

around 18 to 24 months in court hearing. Try to check UK option as well. if it is possible for you, surinder singh route.

Problem with my application was lack of proof. I wasnt aware that I had to submit all proofs even if I thought they were things that Irish authorities would assume.

Such as - having parents name on the utility bill but not showing proof of who paid them led them to assume that the dependent is also contributing to the rent. Similarly their name on the tenancy statement also was alleged to be because they may be contributing to rent etc

So I have to first clarify all those points by maybe filing a new application

[arz1986]

Hi Capicorn,
New application in ireland, after EU1 refused and review refused as well. It will take years. they will not issue u any temporary GNIB card as well. If you have valid GNIB card, try another country. If u have to fight this case in Ireland, go to court. New application in repatriation unit have no time limit. In my case, it already took 3 years. No answer, no gnib, waiting.

[Capricorn]

Does anyone know why even after 30 posts do I not have access to private messaging? My posts are not random either and are all around my parents' application.

!	Message from: Char001
	How do I ask Admins to review?

[Granista]

around 18 to 24 months in court hearing. Try to check UK option as well. if it is possible for you, surinder singh route.

Surinder Singh is only open to you if your "dependents" have LEGAL residence permission in the country you have been exercising FOM in. Doesn't apply here.

Also someone asked if the Dept requested specific information or documents before issuing decision...its well established in the case law that the onus is not on the Minister to seek documentation (other than the basics such as passport etc), it is for applicants to provide all relevant documentation. You would have been informed in what areas you were lacking in the first refusal document.If you choose not to supply relevant info, thats your choice.

And for those advising "court"...OP has no basis for a JR here. He readily admits he did not provide the relevant proofs, so there is no question the decision was in any way in error.

[Capricorn]

around 18 to 24 months in court hearing. Try to check UK option as well. if it is possible for you, surinder singh route.

Surinder Singh is only open to you if your "dependents" have LEGAL residence permission in the country you have been exercising FOM in. Doesn't apply here.

A new application gives you new LEGAL status immediately.

Also someone asked if the Dept requested specific information or documents before issuing decision...its well established in the case law that the onus is not on the Minister to seek documentation (other than the basics such as passport etc), it is for applicants to provide all relevant documentation. You would have been informed in what areas you were lacking in the first refusal document.If you choose not to supply relevant info, thats your choice.

Confirmed with "Your Europe Advice" (legal guidance providing assistance in understanding EU law), that Irish authorities can only ask for proof of dependency before entering the State under EU Directive for FOM and not while in the State. In my case, the documentation was provided for foreign remittance, however the printouts did not have my name (due to system limitation). The authorities could seek clarity on this matter as bank statement of beneficiary of the payments were provided. It was surely an oversight on my part which has been now rectified by providing new documentation from the remittance company showing my name.

And
for those advising "court"...OP has no basis for a JR here. He readily admits he did not provide the relevant proofs, so there is no question the decision was in any way in error.

I dont personally want to go down the court route as it will take longer, however I may stand a chance as the initial refusal of the EU1 application did not highlight the anomaly that EU sponsor's name was not on the remittance print outs. Had it been there, I would had rectified it during review. Also, I can legally challenge the review department's stance that having a dependent's name on tenancy or bills elude to the fact that they are contributing to the living costs. This is not just my case but I have seen another similar refusal.

[Capricorn]

Hi Capicorn,
New application in ireland, after EU1 refused and review refused as well. It will take years. they will not issue u any temporary GNIB card as well. If you have valid GNIB card, try another country. If u have to fight this case in Ireland, go to court. New application in repatriation unit have no time limit. In my case, it already took 3 years. No answer, no gnib, waiting.

Hi Arz1986, below is the response from SOLVIT / Europe Advice:

As your parents have filed a new application, they are entitled to a certificate of application (temporary residence card) pursuant to Article 10, Directive 2004/38/EC. This should be issued without delay.

[Sudaiskhan313]

Hi can I know how long is judicial review taking time?
I have already applied for eu4 since Aug 19. No gnib no reply no work just waiting. But I want to drop eu4 application and straight go to court for judicial review.
What is your suggestion?

[arz1986]

Hi Capicorn,
New application in ireland, after EU1 refused and review refused as well. It will take years. they will not issue u any temporary GNIB card as well. If you have valid GNIB card, try another country. If u have to fight this case in Ireland, go to court. New application in repatriation unit have no time limit. In my case, it already took 3 years. No answer, no gnib, waiting.

Hi Arz1986, below is the response from SOLVIT / Europe Advice:

As your parents have filed a new application, they are entitled to a certificate of application (temporary residence card) pursuant to Article 10, Directive 2004/38/EC. This should be issued without delay.

hi capicorn,
I submit all the document to Solvit Europe six months ago, to take my case, ask INIS about the update. After every month, I write an email to solvit, they say INIS do not respond yet. Even, I complain aginst solvit, it is of no use.
if you have are planning to put a new application, it will go to repatriation unit, it is a waste of time and money. my file is repatriation unit for 36 months. repatriation unit donot give any GNIB, it is not in their policy. if you still wanna try it, do it. but i did the same thing and it is useless.
IN ireland, court is the only option. TRy UK option, I am taking UK route as well.

[Capricorn]

As per Solvit, I should get a new stamp and only time will tell. What I dont understand is why it goes to repatriation unit if it is a new application? Anyone can comment on that part?

@arz - what do you mean by UK route? I am trying to find information on it and stuck on the following:

1- Will I need EEA FP to enter UK or can do the same on visit visa we already have for UK
2- Will I need Art10 card or any other proof that my application is in process in Ireland as without a stamp, the stay in Ireland today may be looked at as "illegal" by UK authorities

[arz1986]

As per Solvit, I should get a new stamp and only time will tell. What I dont understand is why it goes to repatriation unit if it is a new application? Anyone can comment on that part?

@arz - what do you mean by UK route? I am trying to find information on it and stuck on the following:

1- Will I need EEA FP to enter UK or can do the same on visit visa we already have for UK
2- Will I need Art10 card or any other proof that my application is in process in Ireland as without a stamp, the stay in Ireland today may be looked at as "illegal" by UK authorities

1- Will I need EEA FP to enter UK or can do the same on visit visa we already have for UK
Applying for FP from outside UK, people face alot of problems. i think TALK to UK solicitor, and ask for advice.

2- Will I need Art10 card or any other proof that my application is in process in Ireland as without a stamp, the stay in Ireland today may be looked at as "illegal" by UK authorities
Once, ur application is ongoing u r not illegal in ireland. One of parent case, same condition like u, went to UK in september apply UK RC, they get it. Now, I am also search for room in Northern Ireland, to apply for UKRC or UK pre-settlement status.
U have to proof u live together and work in Ireland, she is dependent on u in ireland. Something u submit here, submit in UK-RC case.

[Capricorn]

Once, ur application is ongoing u r not illegal in ireland.

What proof do I have that my application is ongoing? I havent got any letter or any stamp in the passport to prove that

[arz1986]

Hi capicorn,
you hv entry stamp of ireland, which make u legal here. u can proof it, based on entry date of GNIB card, u have to proof it, u live together, legally, ur mother is direct family member, she can live as long as she like in ireland.

[Capricorn]

I know I have initial temporary stamp in passport as proof, but that doesnt mean anything. For instance, now they dont have any stamp and as per refusal letter they dont have status in the State. I know we have applied again and if I have a new stamp then again I can prove but at the moment I cannot prove on paper that they are legal here till I get an acknowledgement letter or a temp stamp

[arz1986]

I think, they said ur application is sent from eu treaty rights department to repatriation unit. so, repatriation unit now make the decision on it. write a letter to INIS, you will get acknowledgement letter.
If your mother is direct family member, free movement of travel apply on her. I think, she will not be consider as illegal in UK, as long as you can proof u genuine live in Ireland with her.

[Capricorn]

Hi arz, in my case its both my parents (father & mother).

Do you happen to have PM option? I dont have that access.