EEA2/refused boarding the plane without schengen 2 holland

[republique]

Hi republique,

It's easy to see why the airline is responsible:Like I said, before. Good Luck with that one.
Legally I'd see the matter as follows:

1. The OP can get compensation from the airline. Not under denied boarding rule
2. If the airline can prove that they were incorrectly advised by border-police they might be able to get compensation from the state. How does that work? What legal principle do you base that one on? But that's the airlines' problem. I doubt it, and I think its the OP's problem

[ca.funke]

1. The OP can get compensation from the airline. Not under denied boarding rule

I would >>disregard the "denied boarding"<< as well.

Rather going for unlawful separation from a family member, illegal restraint, causing unnecessary distress during pregnancy...

[John]

The OP can get compensation from the airline. Not under denied boarding rule

Maybe not, but for breach of contract, surely yes.

[republique]

The OP can get compensation from the airline. Not under denied boarding rule

Maybe not, but for breach of contract, surely yes.

As I said before, they probably should be reimbursed not compensated.
Breach of contract has to have some kind of intention to breach. They didn't intend to breach because they believed the OP didn't have the proper documentation to travel and that was a risk they were not willing to take.
The OP should have signed a waiver with the airline and took on the risk of paying for a return ticket if Immigration Border Control refused them entry. In all likelihood, the Dutch Control wouldn't have even looked twice at them in person.

[ca.funke]

As I said before, they probably should be reimbursed not compensated.
Breach of contract has to have some kind of intention to breach. They didn't intend to breach because they believed the OP didn't have the proper documentation to travel and that was a risk they were not willing to take.

It doesn't matter what they intended to do or did not intend to do.

What is important is that they refused boarding although the papers were in order. This in itself is illegal.

That's why I'd look for compensation - not just being reimbursed.

It would be nice to hear from the OP what your course of action will be...

[Richard66]

I don't know about other countries, but the Italian airline I was flying with last year refused us boarding after speaking to some *** (yes, a real ***!) at the British Embassy in Rome who said my wife would have been denied entry. Such a piece of nonsense this was that I even got a letter from the very same embassy, at a later date, which expressly said that if my wife had made it to the UK she would be admitted as a family member of an EEA citizen and that the EEA FP was only for the benefit of the airline.

I'd love to scan this letter and make it available. Is it possible?

Actually, take a look at the page I believe UKVisas placed on Wikipedia. I have edited it a bit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEA_family_permit

If I'm arrested for this, please visit me in prison and bring me oranges!

[republique]

I don't know about other countries, but the Italian airline I was flying with last year refused us boarding after speaking to some *** (yes, a real ***!) at the British Embassy in Rome who said my wife would have been denied entry. Such a piece of nonsense this was that I even got a letter from the very same embassy, at a later date, which expressly said that if my wife had made it to the UK she would be admitted as a family member of an EEA citizen and that the EEA FP was only for the benefit of the airline.

I'd love to scan this letter and make it available. Is it possible?

Actually, take a look at the page I believe UKVisas placed on Wikipedia. I have edited it a bit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEA_family_permit

If I'm arrested for this, please visit me in prison and bring me oranges!

Not saying they were right, I am just saying that there is no case, or it is very weak. When someone denies you boarding because of a mistake, it doesn't make it illegal. So you can get as outraged as you want, it wont do you any good.

[SMOOTH OPERATOR]

A contract has been breached on the basis that BMI agreed to fly the OP with the conditions that she has the required documents, as the OP has been denied boarding, which has caused distress and unable to be in a position where would not have been able to be stressed out, spend time with family or even earning money or anything reasonable. This could then lead to her asking for compensation even before it goes down the litigation route.

[Richard66]

I am afraid you are walking on...well... Thin ice, Republique!

When a there is a contract, mistakes are simply not allowed. If you have an ingrowing toenail but the doctors instead perform on you heart surgery, are you not liable for conpensation? From your logic it seems that no, because the doctors made a mistake.

[republique]

I am afraid you are walking on...well... Thin ice, Republique!

When a there is a contract, mistakes are simply not allowed. If you have an ingrowing toenail but the doctors instead perform on you heart surgery, are you not liable for conpensation? From your logic it seems that no, because the doctors made a mistake.

Because the cause of action is negligence, not breach of contract. Mistakes are not allowed. HA HA HA, Mistakes happen all the time in a contract. In fact, if there is a mistake as to what you are talking about like say I want to a buy a car and I am thinking the blue car and the dealer is thinking the red car, there is no contract because there was no meeting of the minds.

So again, in all likelihood, this person is entitled to refund, not damages for her inconvenience as the mistake was whether the person had the proper documentation to travel.

You guys need to control your emotions from making you believe there is case because of your outrage and frustration. I am sorry this person had this experience and believe me I am no fan of the airlines but it is not a breach of contract no matter how much you want to make it to be one. Anyway you will get farther with the airline if you write them a polite letter stating what happened how they made the error and you'd appreciate that you get refunded for your out of pocket expenses.

Do you remember the Heathrow Fog incident, all the airline wanted to reimburse me was for a toothbrush, I just wrote them a long letter about how they actually could have avoided having me involved in the mess and if they were more flexible in times of anticipated problems I wouldn't have been put in the mess I ended up in and I got my taxi fare from the airport and the first night hotel's stay as well as meals and a few more incidentals and acknowledgment that they could have done better and they appreciated the info I gave them to improve their service.

Now if you think it is still breach of contract, then go ahead sue them and good luck to you. My advice is go to small claims, they might not show up to defend themselves. I took the airline to small claims and although they showed up I won big time. They were very arrogant and thought that because their ticket said they aren't responsible for damages for checked in luggage that they weren't responsible when they checked it in over my objections and wouldn't let me board unless I had done so. Of course when I got to my destination my item was damaged and they paid for that and more. So I have quite a bit of experience and understanding on what makes an airline liable and what you might get out of them. And I am pretty sure you have no case under breach of contract but good luck to you if you want to go down that road.

[Richard66]

Ok. Have it your way then. No point going on with this. You go your way and we go the right way.

[republique]

Ok. Have it your way then. No point going on with this. You go your way and we go the right way.

Thanks Richard, that's might big of you. Oh sorry, it really wasn't.

[Richard66]

Well, the way I see it is that we could argue this till Judgement Day and reach no conclusion. Someone would actually need to go to court and try.

Any guinea pigs around?

[charles4u]

I just think you guys are missing something or maybe there is something we dont know for sure.

The UK and IRELAND dont allow visa-free for family members of an EU citizen with RESIDENCE CARD FOR FAMILY MEMBERS so why should the other EU accept theirs as free-visa.

Anyway, I wanted to go visit hungary and I called them if I needed a visa and they said I can go with just me FAMILY MEMBER CARD and my PASSPORT aloneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...

I dont know the problem with this UK and IRELAND and thats why its difficult for there family residence card is not accepted as visa-free and I guess it shouldnt be accepted either.

[Richard66]

I think you are confusing two different things: one is the EEA and another is Schengen. You may enter any Schengen country, provided you have a residence cards from another Schengen state (with three exceptions). The fact you are an EEA family member or not has nothing to do with it.

The UK, as well as Ireland, Romania, Bulgaria and Cyprus, are not Schengen countries and your Schengen residence card will only let you in if it is a residence card as a family member or if you are travelling together or joining the EEA citizen.

Swizerland is not an EEA country, but it is almost totally Schengen: you can go there with your residence card.

Do not worry about the confusion: the visa officer in Rome apparently does not know the difference either.

[charles4u]

Maybe u r right but am having this card from Romania which is not yet schengen and they said I can just go with i\my family residence card and my passport.

Guys guess what I think UK is even taking this thing too far, They said the EEA permit takes upto 5days and u will have to submit the papers down and expect there call or anwser to come get ur passport.

Normally ...I shouldnt need a visa going to the UK, secondly it should be a wait and get thing and without so much papers, spain or france will ask u to bring ur wifes ID and ur own residence card for family members and ur marraige certificate to come get the visa and thats if u wanna go alone ...but I think one can even go alone cus its changing.

I think UK controls the EU and what ever they say or want is final...GREAT BRITAIN..

[Richard66]

True, I forgot you live in Romania. You certainly could go from the UK to Romania and they would let you in with your family residence card.

I very much frear the UK doesn't believe your marriage is genuine.

[charles4u]

Thats there problem ....what ever happens then I dont go there and my wife cancels her contract or what ever she is doing in the UK.

I gat nothing to loose and thank God I can go somehwere else freely without problems and thank you for ur words friends.

[Prawo]

I assisted in a similar case already in May 2006, just a week after the coming into effect of Directive 2004/38/EC.
A Dutch-Pakistan couple living in the UK was denied taking the ferry from Dover to Hoek van Holland, after Stena Line officials called to the Dutch immigration. These told a visa would be required.

This happened in the morning. During the day the problem got solved and they could take the evening ferry.

Order of events:
- the couple called their lawyer (me) immediately in the morning
- the lawyer called the Dutch Solvit centre
- Solvit called their contact person at the Dutch immigration (IND)
- Dutch immigration called the lawyer, agreed Immigration at Hoek van Holland was not correct and would be instructed
- lawyer verified this during the cause of the day with immigration in Hoek van Holland and Stena Line direction over there
- some of these telephone conversations were confirmed by the lawyer by fax
- everything seemed to work out well but intervention by phone was necessary as the couple faced some difficulties at the cash desk when getting the ticket for boarding as the person behind it was not aware of the events of the day, but was instructed on the spot.

Since that day I did not hear of similar problems on that route.

I heard of problems from people wanting to take the ferry to Belgium, this was refused, but an hour later they could take the boat without any problem to France.

So, if you you want to come to Holland, take the ferry.
Or travel with KLM as they are aware of the validity of the art. 10 residence cards.

About the thing that happened with bmi you can file a complaint against the immigration (KMAR) at Schiphol airport about wrongfully informing bmi. I could assist you in this if you want.

[charles4u]

I assisted in a similar case already in May 2006, just a week after the coming into effect of Directive 2004/38/EC.
A Dutch-Pakistan couple living in the UK was denied taking the ferry from Dover to Hoek van Holland, after Stena Line officials called to the Dutch immigration. These told a visa would be required.

This happened in the morning. During the day the problem got solved and they could take the evening ferry.

Order of events:
- the couple called their lawyer (me) immediately in the morning
- the lawyer called the Dutch Solvit centre
- Solvit called their contact person at the Dutch immigration (IND)
- Dutch immigration called the lawyer, agreed Immigration at Hoek van Holland was not correct and would be instructed
- lawyer verified this during the cause of the day with immigration in Hoek van Holland and Stena Line direction over there
- some of these telephone conversations were confirmed by the lawyer by fax
- everything seemed to work out well but intervention by phone was necessary as the couple faced some difficulties at the cash desk when getting the ticket for boarding as the person behind it was not aware of the events of the day, but was instructed on the spot.

Since that day I did not hear of similar problems on that route.

I heard of problems from people wanting to take the ferry to Belgium, this was refused, but an hour later they could take the boat without any problem to France.

So, if you you want to come to Holland, take the ferry.
Or travel with KLM as they are aware of the validity of the art. 10 residence cards.

About the thing that happened with bmi you can file a complaint against the immigration (KMAR) at Schiphol airport about wrongfully informing bmi. I could assist you in this if you want.

Good for you, well its much easy to cancel and respect the Law for other EU countries when it comes from UK am sure they will be a little scared.

Then how come this same kinda card cant go to the UK visa-free, I was even denied the visa even with the fact I should be able to go join my wife there in UK with my FAMILY MEMBER RESIDENCE CARD, But this kinda card can come to the EU from UK visa-free but cant go with it to UK.

Is that fair and is that life where somes are more respected and more powerful or could easily break the law? this is totally nonsense and if one contacts the EU commission, they wont even respond or say anything. But am sure they are all scared of UK.

[Richard66]

Prawo! Where have you been all this time?

I have sent my petition and my complaint to the European Parliament and to the European Commission.

As far as you know, how is the situation Charles4u complains about_ namely family members' immigration to the UK.

[charles4u]

Prawo! Where have yopu been all this time?

I have sent my petition and my complaint to the European Parliament and to the European Commission.

As far as you know, how is the situation Charles4u complains about_ namely family members' immigration to the UK.

I haven't heard anything yet but hopefully this coming week, I and my wife in the UK have called both the home office and the brithish embassy here in Romania and the both said there are some changes going on for the EEA permit thing and they don't know yet when I will get a response from them.

Men this is TERRIBLE.. I want people here should create a solid room or forum where we can talk about countries within the EU including Norway and Switzerland where one can get a better paid job cus I can just wait for UK any longer and I have told my wife to be ready to cancel her contract and all in the UK so we can relocate somewhere else.

[Richard66]

Changes, eh? They seem to be feeling the draft a bit in London! Let's hope they finally realise the error of their ways!

I am about to write to the Ombudsman, but because I have received no reply from the European Commission about my complaint.

[86ti]

Anyway, under the "denied boarding" directive, this should be worth 250 Euro compensation plus a refund of the ticket.

This has nothing to do with the "denied boarding" directive. This would be the case if boarding is denied with the reason "overbooking".

I am not sure what Directive you are referring to but Article 2(j) of the EC Regulation No 261/2004 define 'denied boarding' as

‘denied boarding’ means a refusal to carry passengers on a
flight, although they have presented themselves for
boarding under the conditions laid down in Article 3(2),
except where there are reasonable grounds to deny them
boarding, such as reasons of health, safety or security, or
inadequate travel documentation;

The problem is then obviously in the highlighted text.

[Richard66]

But who decides which travel documentation is adequate?

If the law says (as in the case of the UK, but others too) that a family member will not be denied entry if the relationship can be proved it seems to me adequate travel documentation has been provided.