I have a problem with Home Office.

[Ben]

Hello,

Please stop claiming UK public funds which you are not entitled to claim.

If you cannot support yourself and your children from your own resources, or by being employed or self-employed, or are enrolled in a course of study, you have no right to reside in the UK beyond three months of arrival.

[John]

Audil1, what about you? At present the doctor says you cannot work? But before that, were you working in the UK?

If yes, how long is it that you have not been working?

[Ben]

Audil1, what about you? At present the doctor says you cannot work? But before that, were you working in the UK?

If yes, how long is it that you have not been working?

Unfortunately not John. I asked him that already.

Hallo,

No, Never work in uk.

[Obie]

Apologies John for responding to the OP, before he provided an answer to your question.

I started composing the message before you sent your question, then i got caught up with something else, and didn't get back to it, for another 2 hours by then, you had sent the question.

It would have been really strange for the HO to refuse to issue a Registration Certificate to him if his wife was exercising treaty rights in any capacity. As he himself has confirmed. Therefore it is perfectly clear both of them are not exercising treaty right in the UK, the only question left is, are the children exercising treaty right in the UK as school pupils/Student.

The Home Office cannot tell an EEA national whether or not they can claim benefit, or which type of benefit they can claim. He is perfectly entitled to claim benefit as an EEA national, subject to certain residency requirements for some category of EEA national. They can only decide whether or not an EEA national has a right of resident in the UK.


He is entitled to claim benefits, there is nothing overboard about this. The HO would need to establish whether or not he poses an unreasonable burden to the UK public fund, before refusing him Registration Certificate, which is probably what has occurred in this case.

The directive states that resort to public fund, should not merit an automatic expulsion from a member state for Self-Sufficient people, various circumstance would have to be looked into, like the reason why he is in this situation , ie ill health, and when he get better in future , is there a possibility he might want to work in the future.

[Audil1]

Hello,

I have contacted with Netherlandse Ambassade about this problem and told my you can living in uk without Regestering Certificate. And home office cannot tell you you cannot living hier because you have EEA National further you have right to appeal. And told my If I have all public funds that meant you have straight for because all public funds your passport seen thus this is not your problem.

Thus i cancel my apply for Registering certificate. with help of an lawyer

[Ben]

Therefore it is perfectly clear both of them are not exercising treaty right in the UK, the only question left is, are the children exercising treaty right in the UK as school pupils/Student.

They are. But, as in Chen, parents cannot be dependant on their minor children. The parents must be able to support themselves of their own resources. Audil is not able to support himself or his family members from his own resources.

The Home Office cannot tell an EEA national whether or not they can claim benefit, or which type of benefit they can claim.

Correct. But they can tell an EEA national whether he has the right of residence. Benefits such as Jobseeker's Allowance are for persons lawfully resident in the UK. If Audil is not lawfully resident, he is not entitled to claim the benefits given to persons lawfully resident.

He is perfectly entitled to claim benefit as an EEA national, subject to certain residency requirements for some category of EEA national.

Indeed. Subject to certain residency requirements. Primary, the claimant must have a right to reside in the UK.

He is entitled to claim benefits, there is nothing overboard about this.

Please state why you feel this to be true.

The HO would need to establish whether or not he poses an unreasonable burden to the UK public fund, before refusing him Registration Certificate, which is probably what has occurred in this case.

Exactly.

The directive states that resort to public fund, should not merit an automatic expulsion from a member state for Self-Sufficient people
<snip>

Point being, Audil has shown absolutely no indication that he is self-sufficient. Rather, he has made clear that he is currently supported by the state by claiming Child benefit , Child Tax Credit , Housing Benefit, Income Support. Audil is unemployed and his/her spouse is unemployed. Neither of them have ever worked in the UK. It is unclear whether the spouse is also claiming benefits to which he/she has no entitlement.

It is almost comical that you should compare Audil with a self-sufficient person.

[Ben]

Hello,

I have contacted with Netherlandse Ambassade about this problem and told my you can living in uk without Regestering Certificate.

Yes, this is correct and was advised to you in the first reply on this thread.

And home office cannot tell you you cannot living hier because you have EEA National

Actually, they can. Please do not be under the disillusion that, as an EEA national, you have an unrestricted right to reside in the UK for as long as you please.

And told my If I have all public funds that meant you have straight for because all public funds your passport seen thus this is not your problem.

Not entirely sure I understand you here Audil.

Thus i cancel my apply for Registering certificate. with help of an lawyer

This will not make your "problem with Home Office" go away. Registration certificate or no registration certificate - you may reside in the UK only if you have a right or permission to do so. Your right to reside in the UK is conditional, as is the case with most people who are not British citizens. The conditions applicable to you have been listed for you on this thread already.

[John]

Audil, I have just reread the whole of this topic. It seems to me that you, your wife, and your children moved from the Netherlands to the UK over a year ago, and since then neither you nor your wife have worked .... either employed or self-employed.

If the above is all true I am struggling to understand on what basis you and your family are claiming to exercise EU Treaty Rights. It seems the only possibility might have been as a Self-Sufficient Person, but you are not, are you, given that you need to claim certain Public Funds.

You have contacted your Embassy .... a good idea. But maybe you asked the wrong questions, or gave insufficient facts? You have a right to enter the UK and to be a tourist for up to 3 months. After that you need to be exercising EU Treaty Rights in a defined way, such as as a worker (an employed person), or as self-employed, or as a student, or as a self-sufficient person.

So again, in what way are you claiming to exercise EU Treaty Rights in the UK?

[SBT_Owner]

Do the Dutch government pay the benefits he is claiming ?? .

I really hope to god he is not getting benefits that are being paid by UK tax payers . Infact it would not shock me if all his benefits are being paid for by people like me

[Obie]

It is almost comical that you should compare Audil with a self-sufficient person.

That is not true. I think you are taking my comments out of context or possibly misquoting me, which is not very nice.

I would like to make it crystall clear that i don't support - if that is the case here, an EEA nationals coming to the UK for the sole purpose of exploiting the welfare system, as this makes a comlete mockery of the Common/Single market and the essence of the whole EU/EEA project. I have made it perfectly clear in no uncertain terms that Audil/Audil1 will not be entitled to Registeration Certificate. However, i feel i need to seperate my personal view from the facts.

EEA nationals who are in the UK as self-sufficient persons and students should be able to
support themselves without public funds. Such persons are only able to claim public funds
without losing their right of residence if they are able to demonstrate that they are not an
unreasonable burden on the state. To establish whether an EEA national is an unreasonable
burden on the state each case would need to be assessed on an individual basis. If the EEA
national is claiming public funds after having been in the UK for some time, the fact that s/he
had been self sufficient would be a factor in determining whether the burden is reasonable, as
would the length of time that s/he is likely to be in receipt of public funds. Although an EEA
national in this situation would be regarded as having a right of residence even though s/he was
in receipt of public funds, it would not be appropriate to issue him/her with a registration
certificate.

I was merely stating the fact that, even if Audil doesn't meet the above criteria , which might be the case, he might still be entitled to reside in the UK, albeit without a Registeration Certificate, if he has children of school going age, attending school in the UK, as it will be unfair for the children to be punished for the actions of their parents, and for their livelihood i.e. education or integration into a community, to be erroded into. This is covered for in the Baumbast ECJ ruling. This chap will not be covered by Chen.

Just to recap, i don't thinks EEA national, who have never exercised an economic activity in the UK, and claiming benefits are Economically Self-Sufficient, to the contrary.

However, in certain circumstances, it might be appropriate for them to reside, even though they will not be entitled to a Registeration Certificate, for a variety of reasons. This nevertheless makes their residence unlawful.

[Audil1]

Hello,

Thanks for you help. I have not more qution.

I think become all things good.

[Audil1]

Hello,

Sorry i a have last qution, If i stopt all public funds and working you think Zo is Goed.

And as my appel become refused i can appel repeat or no. If no How many days I have time uk leave.

[Obie]

Audil, please can you answer these question, as i am begining to get a bit confused too.

When you first came to England, did you start claiming benefit straighaway or were you doing something like, work, study or business before you fell ill and decided to go into the benefit?

How old are you children?

Are any of them going to school at present?

Have you got any job at present, do you feel bettter now, and feel you will be up to doing one?

What is your wife doing, obviously she is well and able to work, or study, isn't she?

[Audil1]

Hello,

I coming to the uk from 06/2007 and further i have claim for National Insurance Number whitehot Job. After National Insurance Number i have Claim for Job Seekers Allowance on 07/2007. in 2008 doktor tell my you cannot work in connection with your illness and give my each 6 months Sick Note. I have against Job Center and jobs center said my can you apply for Income Support.

How old is childeren, My son 8 Years he sit in Year 4 and My Daughter 7 Years sit in Y 2 and my third child is 2,5 Years born in UK.

And i feel me not better.

And further my wife care the childeren, I can not care childeren.

[Obie]

Okay.

So you were a Job seeker, which is technically considered as worker under the EEA regulation, for a specified period, provided you can demonstrate you have a realistic chance of securing a job. Then you feel ill, and was advised to claim Income Support, and wife is taking care of children.

Perhaps your wife should seek a part time job, whiles you could offer assistance with the upbringing of the children. Would that be a problem?

You cannot be asked to live the UK, and your residence in the UK would not be considered unlawful, as you have children in school.

However, the HO can use their discretion on whether or not to issue a Registration Certificate.

If you want to make a future in the UK, and secure a Permanent Resident Certificate, i would advise you encourage your wife to secure employment.

[Audil1]

Hello, I

If My wife work as Part Time. she can apply voor Child Benefit and Child Tax Credit.

Thanks

[Obie]

It would help greatly.

It would enable you to obtain a Registration Certificate or be entitled to one.

Yes, she will be able to claim Child Benefit and Tax Credits if you meet the requirements.

[Audil1]

Hello,

Thanks Obie,

That is good news for us. I seek a work for my wife.

[Audil1]

Hello Obie,

I recieved a appointment for Hearing Appeal. What is best for my in this day to say.

At de moment i have self Part time work. And i have an letter from doctor.
I do not know is enough this for the Hearing Appeal.


Thanks.

[Obie]

It is great that you have managed to find a part time job, if that is what your post is implying of course.

This changes the whole situation.

If you have a contract of employment, or a wage slip, you can forward it to the Home Office together with the Doctor's letter about your medical condition.

Hopefully the HO would write to the court and discontinue the appeal and grant you a registration certificate.

If they don't, then forward these evidence to the Tribunal, and i am confident it will impact your case in a positive way.

Best wishes for the future

[Audil1]

Hello,

I have recieved a appointment for Hearing Appeal from Tribunal. for 07/01/2009.

Thus I must wait till this day or I must my proofs sending to the Tribunal.


Thanks.

[republique]

Okay.

So you were a Job seeker, which is technically considered as worker under the EEA regulation, for a specified period, provided you can demonstrate you have a realistic chance of securing a job. Then you feel ill, and was advised to claim Income Support, and wife is taking care of children.

Perhaps your wife should seek a part time job, whiles you could offer assistance with the upbringing of the children. Would that be a problem?

You cannot be asked to live the UK, and your residence in the UK would not be considered unlawful, as you have children in school.

However, the HO can use their discretion on whether or not to issue a Registration Certificate.

If you want to make a future in the UK, and secure a Permanent Resident Certificate, i would advise you encourage your wife to secure employment.

I disagree, you can't move to another Eu country and start claiming benefits when you didn't work in that country previously and contribute to the system. Or everyone would just move to another country to receive a benefit.
I find it strange that they would move when they were in such dire straights.
Somehow they got around it and the UK HO was trying to get rid of them. Now they are working so it will be harder to get rid of them

[Audil1]

Hello,

I arranged with my Imgration Solicitor. And he find quite good that I have a part time job.

Thanks Obie.




[/code]

[Audil1]

Hello Obie,

I have a question Obie, Wat is you answer for Republique,

[Obie]

Republique is technically right . The EC treaty makes provision for people to move to another country to establish themselves, remunerate themselves economically, and for the empowerment of the Internal market.

Coming to another memberstate for the sole purpose of claiming benefits is unacceptable, and goes against all the essence of the common market, in fact it makes a complete mockery of it, but it is neverthe less illegal. Once you have met the habitual residency condition, you are free to claim these benefit.

The Homeoffice has a degree of discretion in refusing to grant you registeration Certificate if your stay in the UK is not in accordance with the EC treaty. In fact you could face expulsion.

However, because of the fact that you have been ill, which has been attested by a UK doctor , and your were seeking employment prior to falling ill, if i recollect properly, and your EEA children are in school in the UK ( which is covered in EU case Law Baumbast), you will be fine to stay, although a Registration Certificate will not be issued.

Now that you have a job, you position will be much more stable.

I hope that answers the question.

Just out of interest, isnt the Welfare system much more generous in the Netherlands than the UK?