Irish Government unfair to Spouse of Irish National

[fatty patty]

O'Donoghue, his lies and his high living expenses are his legacy




and a youtube clip showing his arrogance

You seem to have a difficulty telling the difference between being granted citizenship automatically and being granted residency, and an expectation that you must at least live here with wife before applying. Its not a huge requirement or obstacle is it? THere was nothing in that statement state stated that he was going to stop residency

Secondly, this state was said in or around 2000 - 2001, a time when the baby "boom" IBC is nearing its last legs. The new "student" industry (with mickey mouse courses, some of the owners whom have been shut down for dodgy business) was also starting to merge. Looking over to what was happening in the UK gave them plenty to be concerned with. Also, look at what happened under McDowell's time as Minister, in 2003, when there was a blatant abuse of immigration systems via a handy loophole in the ECJ case of Chen 2004, a matter which Ireland got a bollocking from other EU heads of State as we were seen as the back door to europe, whilst the others had progressively addressed the inward control of 3rd Nationals.

I must commend how you take that report out of context as well. The change of the laws were also influence by fact that numbers were living Ireland upon getting the citizenship and then moving over to eg UK, barely to be seen again, or heard of. Hardly swearing to remain here in good faith as required by the legislation now is it?



Its accpeted, O'Donohue was was not the best Minister and made a complete hammms of the immigration side of things, particularily the refugee act 1996 as amended by 1999. But to refer to the lies and high expenses is pretty f*cking retarded. They were all on the make, he was not the only one, it did not effect his ability to act as a minister dealing with THIS issue.

As for the youtube clip, he is the Ceann Comharile, it was disgraceful behaviour from the opposition in particular Enda Kenny, a man who can't even demand the full and absolute respect from his own party , the only time that prick ever look like he had balls (tiny ones albeit). Lawyers in a court room would not dare to treat a judge with such distain. Problem is, O'Donoghue in that clip, reacted like his nick name, and did so badly. I would not be surprised that the opposition had ambushed him, knowing his temper and knowing the publicity would be on him as new ceann comhairle.

Other than that, he was a chancer. Lies, though? I don't see him before the dail committees? You know something we don't know about?

looks like you are on finna fail payroll man...this party full of crony muppets who reminds me of african/south asian corrupt politicians but difference is they are white and speaking english. atleast fine gael deputies has the balls to stand up to its leader if they think he is no good and lost confidence. what did finna fail do when Bertie screwing about with his tribunals and other corruption allegation? stayed silent. Bertie only resigned due to media/public pressure.

spouse of irish citizen should be entitled to irish citizenship after certain years full stop. Its not fair to see irish spouse and kids on one line and getting swished through while non irish spouse waiting till the airport closes to get out....try it it aint nice.

one thing is for sure....irish immigration system or infact really any public service institution aint proactive...they are reactive. act upon when they see others are acting upon and they copy UK system which is not a bad system but difference is here they copy it pretty badly.

Funny enough it does, but no sorry , I am not from Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael. However, I do have an undying hatered for Fine Gael - though this is not the basis of my response


The you tube reference would be equally applied if the ceann comhairle was a fine gaeler. Enda is a rubbish politican, regardless of the party, they are doing reasonably well, in spite of him.

THe person can't even read the conbtetx of what O'Donoghue was on about during those dail debates.

Its good to see that you have failed to make any decent substantive argument in relation to this. Fine Gael won't be much better on the immigration front, look out for Leo V. They are knee jerk reactionaries, conversative etc. No good talking, action is what counts. I see very few in the party (there are a number of good) one who will have the balls. any bollox can sound good when they are in opposition. were are their purposals now as oppose to waiting to unless them at elections and when they go into power. Not since the days of Charles J Haughey, does a person need to fear death, phone tapping etc unlike the african - asian politicans who refer to. incompetence is not corruption, its just bloody bad luck for the voters

By the way, its being a long time an irish politican had balls. following the mood of the people and the polls at all times does not mean you have balls. bringing in legislation etc against all public opinion but solely in the interest and good of the country which later turns out to work, thats balls.

But the comments made are groundless and or are irrelevant from an IMMIGRATION point of view. It does nothing to support one's arguement, its lazy and it tells an awful lot about the writer who is unable to use pieces of information within the context.

Unless you are really really really guilable and retarded, you might have realised that the recent leadership show down was a fix!!!!!! It was a great way of making Enda look like the all powerful mighty man. It worked for a few days. but then.../ you say they have balls, that supposed heave was a half arse attempt by a few power hungry and obviously not popular members of the party. If enda have balls he would have banished them to the back benches or forced them to resign ala haughey style. but no, enda wants power. Sure he can't even keep loose lips creighton quite.

THey are all the same, these parties, but you are delluding yourself to think that the fine gael party are anything. You clearly sound a wee bit ignorant to the power struggles and family in fighting with FG over the decades, which has crippled the party. I recommend you check out a very good documentary, made by Mint Productions (miriam O'Callaghan's group , a family at war or something)


Again, no body is actually saying that a spouse of an irish national is not entitled to citizenship! they are simply required to apply , like everyone else. They will be considered a lot more differently, and more favourably than other cases. Someone is protesting too much. They will have stamp 4 in the meantime. Any genuines would not be too bothered by it as they will be able to travel easily enough around europe with spouse. THey still get through the air port don't they? such inconvenience is not enough.

I swear i read it somewhere you said below on one of the forum to my response to current politicians (finna failers) in power...

im not talking about to get visa , im talking about to review decision it takes too long , i know it couse im working at law firm in bruksel and i heard many
complain to inis.everybody get tired here for inis judgment.

Delay tactics so people go away, thats what it is i think to be honest.

inis even not fair irish citizen

100%

looks like they re to be very royalist than the king. if everybody move there who is going to pay tax to pay inis officer

anyway , iriland going to loose

Ireland problem isn't Irish people....its the clowns who rule them. No one is perfect for sure.

"""In fairness, its the people who put them there, again and again and have tolerated their carry on. How many have been kicked out of the Dail or refused permission to stand as candidate for next elections for mismanagement of expenses. Look what happened at Westminister, they did right"""

Sudden change of heart...how come?

[walrusgumble]

You seem to have a difficulty telling the difference between being granted citizenship automatically and being granted residency, and an expectation that you must at least live here with wife before applying. Its not a huge requirement or obstacle is it? THere was nothing in that statement state stated that he was going to stop residency

Secondly, this state was said in or around 2000 - 2001, a time when the baby "boom" IBC is nearing its last legs. The new "student" industry (with mickey mouse courses, some of the owners whom have been shut down for dodgy business) was also starting to merge. Looking over to what was happening in the UK gave them plenty to be concerned with. Also, look at what happened under McDowell's time as Minister, in 2003, when there was a blatant abuse of immigration systems via a handy loophole in the ECJ case of Chen 2004, a matter which Ireland got a bollocking from other EU heads of State as we were seen as the back door to europe, whilst the others had progressively addressed the inward control of 3rd Nationals.

I must commend how you take that report out of context as well. The change of the laws were also influence by fact that numbers were living Ireland upon getting the citizenship and then moving over to eg UK, barely to be seen again, or heard of. Hardly swearing to remain here in good faith as required by the legislation now is it?



Its accpeted, O'Donohue was was not the best Minister and made a complete hammms of the immigration side of things, particularily the refugee act 1996 as amended by 1999. But to refer to the lies and high expenses is pretty f*cking retarded. They were all on the make, he was not the only one, it did not effect his ability to act as a minister dealing with THIS issue.

As for the youtube clip, he is the Ceann Comharile, it was disgraceful behaviour from the opposition in particular Enda Kenny, a man who can't even demand the full and absolute respect from his own party , the only time that prick ever look like he had balls (tiny ones albeit). Lawyers in a court room would not dare to treat a judge with such distain. Problem is, O'Donoghue in that clip, reacted like his nick name, and did so badly. I would not be surprised that the opposition had ambushed him, knowing his temper and knowing the publicity would be on him as new ceann comhairle.

Other than that, he was a chancer. Lies, though? I don't see him before the dail committees? You know something we don't know about?

looks like you are on finna fail payroll man...this party full of crony muppets who reminds me of african/south asian corrupt politicians but difference is they are white and speaking english. atleast fine gael deputies has the balls to stand up to its leader if they think he is no good and lost confidence. what did finna fail do when Bertie screwing about with his tribunals and other corruption allegation? stayed silent. Bertie only resigned due to media/public pressure.

spouse of irish citizen should be entitled to irish citizenship after certain years full stop. Its not fair to see irish spouse and kids on one line and getting swished through while non irish spouse waiting till the airport closes to get out....try it it aint nice.

one thing is for sure....irish immigration system or infact really any public service institution aint proactive...they are reactive. act upon when they see others are acting upon and they copy UK system which is not a bad system but difference is here they copy it pretty badly.

Funny enough it does, but no sorry , I am not from Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael. However, I do have an undying hatered for Fine Gael - though this is not the basis of my response


The you tube reference would be equally applied if the ceann comhairle was a fine gaeler. Enda is a rubbish politican, regardless of the party, they are doing reasonably well, in spite of him.

THe person can't even read the conbtetx of what O'Donoghue was on about during those dail debates.

Its good to see that you have failed to make any decent substantive argument in relation to this. Fine Gael won't be much better on the immigration front, look out for Leo V. They are knee jerk reactionaries, conversative etc. No good talking, action is what counts. I see very few in the party (there are a number of good) one who will have the balls. any bollox can sound good when they are in opposition. were are their purposals now as oppose to waiting to unless them at elections and when they go into power. Not since the days of Charles J Haughey, does a person need to fear death, phone tapping etc unlike the african - asian politicans who refer to. incompetence is not corruption, its just bloody bad luck for the voters

By the way, its being a long time an irish politican had balls. following the mood of the people and the polls at all times does not mean you have balls. bringing in legislation etc against all public opinion but solely in the interest and good of the country which later turns out to work, thats balls.

But the comments made are groundless and or are irrelevant from an IMMIGRATION point of view. It does nothing to support one's arguement, its lazy and it tells an awful lot about the writer who is unable to use pieces of information within the context.

Unless you are really really really guilable and retarded, you might have realised that the recent leadership show down was a fix!!!!!! It was a great way of making Enda look like the all powerful mighty man. It worked for a few days. but then.../ you say they have balls, that supposed heave was a half arse attempt by a few power hungry and obviously not popular members of the party. If enda have balls he would have banished them to the back benches or forced them to resign ala haughey style. but no, enda wants power. Sure he can't even keep loose lips creighton quite.

THey are all the same, these parties, but you are delluding yourself to think that the fine gael party are anything. You clearly sound a wee bit ignorant to the power struggles and family in fighting with FG over the decades, which has crippled the party. I recommend you check out a very good documentary, made by Mint Productions (miriam O'Callaghan's group , a family at war or something)


Again, no body is actually saying that a spouse of an irish national is not entitled to citizenship! they are simply required to apply , like everyone else. They will be considered a lot more differently, and more favourably than other cases. Someone is protesting too much. They will have stamp 4 in the meantime. Any genuines would not be too bothered by it as they will be able to travel easily enough around europe with spouse. THey still get through the air port don't they? such inconvenience is not enough.

I swear i read it somewhere you said below on one of the forum to my response to current politicians (finna failers) in power...

im not talking about to get visa , im talking about to review decision it takes too long , i know it couse im working at law firm in bruksel and i heard many
complain to inis.everybody get tired here for inis judgment.

Delay tactics so people go away, thats what it is i think to be honest.

inis even not fair irish citizen

100%

looks like they re to be very royalist than the king. if everybody move there who is going to pay tax to pay inis officer

anyway , iriland going to loose

Ireland problem isn't Irish people....its the clowns who rule them. No one is perfect for sure.

"""In fairness, its the people who put them there, again and again and have tolerated their carry on. How many have been kicked out of the Dail or refused permission to stand as candidate for next elections for mismanagement of expenses. Look what happened at Westminister, they did right"""

Sudden change of heart...how come?

Fianna Fail and Fine Gael are cut from the same cloth. They have very little difference. However, traditionally, the main differences was the Fine Gael, traditionally were seen as the big farmers, a large proportionate of Lawyers and Judges, devoutly catholic (but happy to take prostestants), and completely anti republican party - they were akin, with some notable exceptions, to the Tories in the UK. Prior to Haughey, Fianna Fail was a catch all party, they claimed to represent all and in fairness they appeared to hae done so; small farmers, farmer labours, townies etc. The party was wide enough for more socially mind to the capitalist. Of course, this could not be sustained and the big wigs had to come in to fund the party and get the state moving. People harp on about corruption etc in Fianna Fail, fairn enough, but Fine Gael are no angels: Michael Lowry! Kenny was recently with a few builders at a Fine Gael fundraiser, one which loose lips Creighton got cracked on the knuckles for publicly condemining.

Now as for the last part, the i"n fairness part". There is no change of heart. Its called giving a balanced discussion. Its something alot of people here need to consider. And for an English person well use of idiot governments and how politics runs in this side of the world, that comment of yours was a bit ridiculous. You say that its not the Irish people but the government. WTF? Who votes them in? This is not Iraq or Afghanistan, nor it is Northern Ireland in the 1950-1980's (Gerrymandering - though funny enough with recent constituency changes, some self interested politicans might suggest other wise) People made a free choice to put these people in and hae a free choice in kicking them out now or to not re elect them

. It is in response to this notion that FF or any party (unless its Zanu PF or B'aath Party) are all of a sudden completely in control of everything. They were not. The people on the ballot poll voted them in time and time again. Why? Stupidity maybe, but also a clear lack of competence and confidence in the opposition party and their inability to provide an alternative view.

By the way, don't believe the hype with labour. they have not even told us where the party stands, and if your not in the public sector your fecked. Don't think for one minute that neither labour or fine gael would get rid of the quango committees etc without a fight (as dermot morgan use to say, "Jobs for the boys"), the change of government of 1992 shows this.

Its time for the people themselves to look into the mirror , they did nothing to stop the madness

Now, returning to more relevant issues, Immigration matters..................

[fatty patty]

Fianna Fail and Fine Gael are cut from the same cloth. They have very little difference. However, traditionally, the main differences was the Fine Gael, traditionally were seen as the big farmers, a large proportionate of Lawyers and Judges, devoutly catholic (but happy to take prostestants), and completely anti republican party - they were akin, with some notable exceptions, to the Tories in the UK. Prior to Haughey, Fianna Fail was a catch all party, they claimed to represent all and in fairness they appeared to hae done so; small farmers, farmer labours, townies etc. The party was wide enough for more socially mind to the capitalist. Of course, this could not be sustained and the big wigs had to come in to fund the party and get the state moving. People harp on about corruption etc in Fianna Fail, fairn enough, but Fine Gael are no angels: Michael Lowry! Kenny was recently with a few builders at a Fine Gael fundraiser, one which loose lips Creighton got cracked on the knuckles for publicly condemining.

Now as for the last part, the i"n fairness part". There is no change of heart. Its called giving a balanced discussion. Its something alot of people here need to consider. And for an English person well use of idiot governments and how politics runs in this side of the world, that comment of yours was a bit ridiculous. You say that its not the Irish people but the government. WTF? Who votes them in? This is not Iraq or Afghanistan, nor it is Northern Ireland in the 1950-1980's (Gerrymandering - though funny enough with recent constituency changes, some self interested politicans might suggest other wise) People made a free choice to put these people in and hae a free choice in kicking them out now or to not re elect them

. It is in response to this notion that FF or any party (unless its Zanu PF or B'aath Party) are all of a sudden completely in control of everything. They were not. The people on the ballot poll voted them in time and time again. Why? Stupidity maybe, but also a clear lack of competence and confidence in the opposition party and their inability to provide an alternative view.

By the way, don't believe the hype with labour. they have not even told us where the party stands, and if your not in the public sector your fecked. Don't think for one minute that neither labour or fine gael would get rid of the quango committees etc without a fight (as dermot morgan use to say, "Jobs for the boys"), the change of government of 1992 shows this.

Its time for the people themselves to look into the mirror , they did nothing to stop the madness

Now, returning to more relevant issues, Immigration matters..................

Fine Gael/Fail are cut from the same cloth.....Labour is over hyped....then the only ones left are the Greens/Sinn Fein (no thank you).

Not many good choices left now is there? BTW when FF was voted in it was good times, all the locals were living in the 4 holidays a year bubble built on immigrants backs! But what immigrant's got in reverse? discrimination not just from locals but also state controlled policies.

Although locals voted FF in but it was due to a mirage put infront of them by these FF muppets of which this current DoJ incharge hails from (brother of you know who). Its post 2008 FF policies which are a problem. Anyway thats me whinging again. Back to immigration matters....guaranteed Irish citizenship for all spouses of Irish citizens (of good character) provided they are married 3 years & no reverse discrimination towards the state's citizen. Proper recognition of EU directive of free movement and no micky mouse stuff by the DoJ on that matter.

[Monifé]

all the locals were living in the 4 holidays a year bubble built on immigrants backs!

Ah now, ya can't say the country was built on immigrants backs in the boom time. What about the countries 4 million plus citizens? and eh I don't remember going on 4 holidays a year in the boom time...

Its post 2008 FF policies which are a problem.

Its pre 2008 policies that have this country in a mess, the boom started long before 2008 and it's the lackadaisical policies during that time that has this country in a mess!

[fatty patty]

Ah now, ya can't say the country was built on immigrants backs in the boom time. What about the countries 4 million plus citizens? and eh I don't remember going on 4 holidays a year in the boom time...

Yeah i should have used the word most of it...if not all...google's 75% workforce is foreign. Intel 65% is foreign....most of the builders were eastern eu at the time...if you know what i mean. 4 holidays a year is just an anology but you know what was it like in the boom times.

Its pre 2008 policies that have this country in a mess, the boom started long before 2008 and it's the lackadaisical policies during that time that has this country in a mess!

Pre 2008 policies no doubt....but what was the measures after it...cuts left right and centre that has taken out cash from the economy and bail out the toxic *ankers sorry bankers. Can't get credit for viable businesses now.

[Monifé]

Its pre 2008 policies that have this country in a mess, the boom started long before 2008 and it's the lackadaisical policies during that time that has this country in a mess!

Pre 2008 policies no doubt....but what was the measures after it...cuts left right and centre that has taken out cash from the economy and bail out the toxic *ankers sorry bankers. Can't get credit for viable businesses now.

Yeah there are cuts left, right and centre, but it has to be done now the country is neck deep in sh*t! The days where unneccessary motorways and FAS schemes were funded are over. Reality has set in. It is not all doom and gloom, it's just not like the boom time. But that was when people were living in a bubble, throwing cash at anything thinking nothing could go wrong.

Still don't agree with you saying the country was mostly built off the back of immigrants. Yeah there was a surplus of jobs and we got non-european and eastern european in to do construction jobs, hotel jobs, cleaning etc etc etc but we were actually better off before the boom than we are now. You say "built the country", what country, it's a shambles now.

[fatty patty]

Still don't agree with you saying the country was mostly built off the back of immigrants. Yeah there was a surplus of jobs and we got non-european and eastern european in to do construction jobs, hotel jobs, cleaning etc etc etc but we were actually better off before the boom than we are now. You say "built the country", what country, it's a shambles now.

No offence but that smells of arrogance! Saying there was surplus and we just threw away bottom of the pile jobs to "these immigrants", whatever was there it was taken up wether bottom or top of the pile, you say you were better of pre boom time, i dont want to start quoting statistics for the pre boom time but ireland aint better off pre 1998 thats for sure. This country is shambles now...i for a foreigner don't see it that way, shambles in Dail yeah not elsewhere.

As far as the cuts are cocnerned....one don't go about with a mushetti and start hacking whatever one could find. Its the quangos that needed to go but still there....FAS the biggest white elephant needed to go but still there etc etc.

[walrusgumble]

Fianna Fail and Fine Gael are cut from the same cloth. They have very little difference. However, traditionally, the main differences was the Fine Gael, traditionally were seen as the big farmers, a large proportionate of Lawyers and Judges, devoutly catholic (but happy to take prostestants), and completely anti republican party - they were akin, with some notable exceptions, to the Tories in the UK. Prior to Haughey, Fianna Fail was a catch all party, they claimed to represent all and in fairness they appeared to hae done so; small farmers, farmer labours, townies etc. The party was wide enough for more socially mind to the capitalist. Of course, this could not be sustained and the big wigs had to come in to fund the party and get the state moving. People harp on about corruption etc in Fianna Fail, fairn enough, but Fine Gael are no angels: Michael Lowry! Kenny was recently with a few builders at a Fine Gael fundraiser, one which loose lips Creighton got cracked on the knuckles for publicly condemining.

Now as for the last part, the i"n fairness part". There is no change of heart. Its called giving a balanced discussion. Its something alot of people here need to consider. And for an English person well use of idiot governments and how politics runs in this side of the world, that comment of yours was a bit ridiculous. You say that its not the Irish people but the government. WTF? Who votes them in? This is not Iraq or Afghanistan, nor it is Northern Ireland in the 1950-1980's (Gerrymandering - though funny enough with recent constituency changes, some self interested politicans might suggest other wise) People made a free choice to put these people in and hae a free choice in kicking them out now or to not re elect them

. It is in response to this notion that FF or any party (unless its Zanu PF or B'aath Party) are all of a sudden completely in control of everything. They were not. The people on the ballot poll voted them in time and time again. Why? Stupidity maybe, but also a clear lack of competence and confidence in the opposition party and their inability to provide an alternative view.

By the way, don't believe the hype with labour. they have not even told us where the party stands, and if your not in the public sector your fecked. Don't think for one minute that neither labour or fine gael would get rid of the quango committees etc without a fight (as dermot morgan use to say, "Jobs for the boys"), the change of government of 1992 shows this.

Its time for the people themselves to look into the mirror , they did nothing to stop the madness

Now, returning to more relevant issues, Immigration matters..................

Fine Gael/Fail are cut from the same cloth.....Labour is over hyped....then the only ones left are the Greens/Sinn Fein (no thank you).

Not many good choices left now is there? BTW when FF was voted in it was good times, all the locals were living in the 4 holidays a year bubble built on immigrants backs! But what immigrant's got in reverse? discrimination not just from locals but also state controlled policies.

Although locals voted FF in but it was due to a mirage put infront of them by these FF muppets of which this current DoJ incharge hails from (brother of you know who). Its post 2008 FF policies which are a problem. Anyway thats me whinging again. Back to immigration matters....guaranteed Irish citizenship for all spouses of Irish citizens (of good character) provided they are married 3 years & no reverse discrimination towards the state's citizen. Proper recognition of EU directive of free movement and no micky mouse stuff by the DoJ on that matter.

That is the problem with politics here, there is no alternatives. I am not asking by the way for a party to either be one or the other (ie left wing or right wing, f*ck that text book ideology sh*te). I get what you are saying about Sinn Fein and Greens. But, out of interest, there are many clowns out there who would not be interested in Sinn Fein just because of their name and have not even considered their policy. Ironically for ye lot, Sinn Fein were one of the few groups to consistently campagin and support immigrant's right, one example, being against the referendum change on Citizenship. I personally know 4 local councillors from Sinn Fein from various councils who went public and campaigned against semi state bodies who were breaking the law when they paying EU nationals below minimum wage. FF were not doing it, neither were FG and Labour at the time (in those areas) were non existant or still thinking Guvera was cool. And anyone who still thinks the Shinners will still be this champagne socialist lark (Mr Adams) is delluded, they will be trying to get the Yanks to invest in NI in the coming years, their marxist babble will go out the window.

FF, they have being voted in for a majority of this State's history! Fine Gael have barely saw office but with a few gaps, and when they did, things got WORSE (to be fair, FF in powere ala Jack Lynch's government did nothing to help). Bruton, with the exception of the Northern Ireland Question, was a decent Taoiseach even if he was not persoanally liked.

"all the locals were living in the 4 holidays a year bubble built on immigrants backs! But what immigrant's got in reverse? discrimination not just from locals but also state controlled policies"

How long have you been living here? All the locals? Really? Built on Immigrants backs?

I don't recall too many working in the IFSC or top echaeleons of business, that would not hae done so already. It would be worth nothing that in the end, HP Intel and co, brought foreigners IN here, instead of hiring Irish, simply because they would accept lowerer wages. You come across as a blow in. The econmic boom has its foundation from 1988 - Tallaght Strategy, moving slowly on to circa 1994. Up until 2001 there was genuine growth and exports. The immigrants involvement here during this period is over stated, how many were here?

The period from 2001 to onwards came the influx of immigrants, First the Russians and then the Turks (via groups like ) and in 2004, the new EU states. By that point there need was based on (false) illusion that the Irish had disposable money for resturants, hotels etc etc. THe immigrant was welcome to the jobs, ones where, due to their earnings, paid little or not income tax (ok lets be franks, VAT is paid on all goods) lets be honest about it, very few people got anything out of them, ie employers and landlords!!!! (of course customers got served etc, and well, of course the lads on the buildings did well) They got well paid, (most of them) and had better living standard than they did in their home areas. Social welfare was more generous. (fair enough) So don't come larking about that it was all one sided. Yes things were hard for them, but of course they would, if you or me went to eg New York, dispite our education and skills we may never get the chance to use them and maybe suck on jobs eg building sites, but thats the risk/knowledge of emmigrating.

Now lets get one thing clear, all of the above was good for Ireland, it made people think about their position in the world (unfortunately, leading many Irish to dig their heads so far up their own ar*es) But to go on bout "off the backs of immigrants" is too wide. yes them contributed, yes they helped the farce that was the boom continue for a few more years as the MAJORITY OF THE IRISH WORKFORCE WAS IN EMPLOYMENT (so sod your, oh they did jobs Irish did not want to do, how could they, they already had jobs, double jobbing aint worth it tax wise)


Please show me the posters, documentation that "guaranteed" citizenship. Why do you have difficulty with the line as per the citizenship act that says, its the Minister's absolute discretion? The legislation makes it crystal clear that period of time should not include time as an asylum seeker, and that one needed to get status registered first


HAve spouses of Irish Citizens actually been REFUSED citizenship? WHY?

REverse Discrimination, that does not effect ones application for citizenship. It effects their rights to bringing family members that are beyond the level of children. That Moylan case is not set in stone, there might be cases more fitting eg if there was actual proof that the mother/grandmother/niece etc ACTAULLY HAD LIVED with either spouse previously unlike Moylan.

Lets be frank about it, in light of many threads here, one of the first thing, some immigrants do upon getting citizenship is leave for Europe, threating the Irish passport as a meal ticket, contrary to what they had sworn before a district court judge.


But yes, policies are wrong in the sense that they are hidden, made up as you go along, and its basically a lottery. And it is not going to change with the new bill. Can I take it that if these policies where made clear and in writing in legislation ytou would not have many complaints?

[fatty patty]

That is the problem with politics here, there is no alternatives. I am not asking by the way for a party to either be one or the other (ie left wing or right wing, f*ck that text book ideology sh*te). I get what you are saying about Sinn Fein and Greens. But, out of interest, there are many clowns out there who would not be interested in Sinn Fein just because of their name and have not even considered their policy. Ironically for ye lot, Sinn Fein were one of the few groups to consistently campagin and support immigrant's right, one example, being against the referendum change on Citizenship. I personally know 4 local councillors from Sinn Fein from various councils who went public and campaigned against semi state bodies who were breaking the law when they paying EU nationals below minimum wage. FF were not doing it, neither were FG and Labour at the time (in those areas) were non existant or still thinking Guvera was cool. And anyone who still thinks the Shinners will still be this champagne socialist lark (Mr Adams) is delluded, they will be trying to get the Yanks to invest in NI in the coming years, their marxist babble will go out the window.

FF, they have being voted in for a majority of this State's history! Fine Gael have barely saw office but with a few gaps, and when they did, things got WORSE (to be fair, FF in powere ala Jack Lynch's government did nothing to help). Bruton, with the exception of the Northern Ireland Question, was a decent Taoiseach even if he was not persoanally liked.

"all the locals were living in the 4 holidays a year bubble built on immigrants backs! But what immigrant's got in reverse? discrimination not just from locals but also state controlled policies"

How long have you been living here? All the locals? Really? Built on Immigrants backs?

I don't recall too many working in the IFSC or top echaeleons of business, that would not hae done so already. It would be worth nothing that in the end, HP Intel and co, brought foreigners IN here, instead of hiring Irish, simply because they would accept lowerer wages. You come across as a blow in. The econmic boom has its foundation from 1988 - Tallaght Strategy, moving slowly on to circa 1994. Up until 2001 there was genuine growth and exports. The immigrants involvement here during this period is over stated, how many were here?

The period from 2001 to onwards came the influx of immigrants, First the Russians and then the Turks (via groups like ) and in 2004, the new EU states. By that point there need was based on (false) illusion that the Irish had disposable money for resturants, hotels etc etc. THe immigrant was welcome to the jobs, ones where, due to their earnings, paid little or not income tax (ok lets be franks, VAT is paid on all goods) lets be honest about it, very few people got anything out of them, ie employers and landlords!!!! (of course customers got served etc, and well, of course the lads on the buildings did well) They got well paid, (most of them) and had better living standard than they did in their home areas. Social welfare was more generous. (fair enough) So don't come larking about that it was all one sided. Yes things were hard for them, but of course they would, if you or me went to eg New York, dispite our education and skills we may never get the chance to use them and maybe suck on jobs eg building sites, but thats the risk/knowledge of emmigrating.

Now lets get one thing clear, all of the above was good for Ireland, it made people think about their position in the world (unfortunately, leading many Irish to dig their heads so far up their own ar*es) But to go on bout "off the backs of immigrants" is too wide. yes them contributed, yes they helped the farce that was the boom continue for a few more years as the MAJORITY OF THE IRISH WORKFORCE WAS IN EMPLOYMENT (so sod your, oh they did jobs Irish did not want to do, how could they, they already had jobs, double jobbing aint worth it tax wise)[/b]


Please show me the posters, documentation that "guaranteed" citizenship. Why do you have difficulty with the line as per the citizenship act that says, its the Minister's absolute discretion? The legislation makes it crystal clear that period of time should not include time as an asylum seeker, and that one needed to get status registered first


HAve spouses of Irish Citizens actually been REFUSED citizenship? WHY?

REverse Discrimination, that does not effect ones application for citizenship. It effects their rights to bringing family members that are beyond the level of children. That Moylan case is not set in stone, there might be cases more fitting eg if there was actual proof that the mother/grandmother/niece etc ACTAULLY HAD LIVED with either spouse previously unlike Moylan.

Lets be frank about it, in light of many threads here, one of the first thing, some immigrants do upon getting citizenship is leave for Europe, threating the Irish passport as a meal ticket, contrary to what they had sworn before a district court judge.


But yes, policies are wrong in the sense that they are hidden, made up as you go along, and its basically a lottery. And it is not going to change with the new bill. Can I take it that if these policies where made clear and in writing in legislation ytou would not have many complaints?

Genie mac! when walrusgumble does his mumble aye! Right....i am gonna separate grain from the chaff...

How many do you know who has worked in IFSC? You see this is your problem mate (eyes wide shut)...going into your local McDonalds and served behind a counter by a South Asian or a East Asian and you think the lot (foreigners) of them works there!

Intel and google are gonna get cheap labour in and pay them below the minimum wage? Have you worked there man? Dude which world are you living in? its not PADDY MCNAMARA builders and developers somewhere in blarney cork.....its INTEL/HP/GOOGLE...hang on...i come again....INTEL/HP/GOOGLE.

aahh..hang on a second about going to NY....if you go to NY with your education and experience....you will defo get your worth out...unless you are suggesting the Irish at the time of famine or uneducated ones nowadays went there and didn't find any jobs or only found them at building sites. Ofcourse if a an uneducated Pole comes to Ireland what is he going to do....odd job! you have a habit of brushing everything with one brush.

(unfortunately, leading many Irish to dig their heads so far up their own ar*es)

You said it yourself.

Please show me the posters, documentation that "guaranteed" citizenship. Why do you have difficulty with the line as per the citizenship act that says, its the Minister's absolute discretion? The legislation makes it crystal clear that period of time should not include time as an asylum seeker, and that one needed to get status registered first

You have already eaten humble pies in a different forum...where you sterenously defended the minister of injustice unequality and mickey mouse reform...shall i start quoting facts and figures again to you!

Lets be frank about it, in light of many threads here, one of the first thing, some immigrants do upon getting citizenship is leave for Europe, threating the Irish passport as a meal ticket, contrary to what they had sworn before a district court judge.

SO??!!?? why is it fair of JOHN O'SULLIVAN or MARY O'SULLIVAN to jet off to OZ to find work while naturalised MUHAMMAD ABIOLA or SUKHWINDER SINGH has to work for the sake of working? He she has every right to go wherever he she wants! Ireland ain't Baath party or the Talibans as you said before.

But yes, policies are wrong in the sense that they are hidden, made up as you go along, and its basically a lottery. And it is not going to change with the new bill. Can I take it that if these policies where made clear and in writing in legislation ytou would not have many complaints?

Policies are wrong but what are you doing about it? oh hang...let me quote you...

(unfortunately, leading many Irish to dig their heads so far up their own ar*es)

are you the same?

[acme4242]

The biggest attack on Irish Emigrants and Irish at home who
married foreigners, has been the removal of Post-Nuptial Citizenship,
along with the well established immigration procedures which secured
the admission of non-national spouses of Irish nationals.

Then came reverse discrimination, so its now at the point its better to be
a Greekman or a Romanian, in Ireland that being Irish born'n'bred.

Oh,But lets not forget, Irish Public servants get special privileges for their
spouse, back door post nuptial citizenship for the boys in the club.

But anyway, walrusgumble cannot see how the "Irish Government are
unfair to Spouse of Irish Nationals"

unfair, unjust, unequal, and using the office of law reform, to introduce
draconian bad laws upon Irish Citizens who marry foreigners.

Using the repeated lie, that .. sure....its only to combat bogus marriage.
while stuffing their back pockets with bogus expenses.

Bare faced rogues. devoid of justice and compassion.

[Monifé]

No offence but that smells of arrogance! Saying there was surplus and we just threw away bottom of the pile jobs to "these immigrants"

It's not arrogance. The fact of the matter is the majority of immigrants who arrived in Ireland in the boom time took the low class/low paid jobs. Theres no arrogance about it, I am perfectly aware that there are a lot of immigrants in high paid jobs, doctors etc but I was saying that the majority of ones that came in the boom time went for the regular joe jobs.

I wont bother arguing with you anymore, Walrusgumble seems to be making all the points I would make anyway

[fatty patty]

It's not arrogance. The fact of the matter is the majority of immigrants who arrived in Ireland in the boom time took the low class/low paid jobs. Theres no arrogance about it, I am perfectly aware that there are a lot of immigrants in high paid jobs, doctors etc but I was saying that the majority of ones that came in the boom time went for the regular joe jobs.

Did you forget thousands and thousands of international students who were allowed 20 hrs a week work but working full time, they are also getting classed as immigrants here in your statement i think.

I wont bother arguing with you anymore,

Who is arguing? ME? It was you who started it. Scroll it back up a bit and you see!

Walrusgumble seems to be making all the points I would make anyway

....nevermind...i won't even bother.

[fatty patty]

The biggest attack on Irish Emigrants and Irish at home who
married foreigners, has been the removal of Post-Nuptial Citizenship,
along with the well established immigration procedures which secured
the admission of non-national spouses of Irish nationals.

Then came reverse discrimination, so its now at the point its better to be
a Greekman or a Romanian, in Ireland that being Irish born'n'bred.

Oh,But lets not forget, Irish Public servants get special privileges for their
spouse, back door post nuptial citizenship for the boys in the club.

But anyway, walrusgumble cannot see how the "Irish Government are
unfair to Spouse of Irish Nationals"

unfair, unjust, unequal, and using the office of law reform, to introduce
draconian bad laws upon Irish Citizens who marry foreigners.

Using the repeated lie, that .. sure....its only to combat bogus marriage.
while stuffing their back pockets with bogus expenses.

Bare faced rogues. devoid of justice and compassion.

Well said. You mentioned something about civil servants and post nuptial route....is that really true mate? Would you know of any cases who were approved due to this racket.

[walrusgumble]

error

[walrusgumble]

Still don't agree with you saying the country was mostly built off the back of immigrants. Yeah there was a surplus of jobs and we got non-european and eastern european in to do construction jobs, hotel jobs, cleaning etc etc etc but we were actually better off before the boom than we are now. You say "built the country", what country, it's a shambles now.

No offence but that smells of arrogance! Saying there was surplus and we just threw away bottom of the pile jobs to "these immigrants", whatever was there it was taken up wether bottom or top of the pile, you say you were better of pre boom time, i dont want to start quoting statistics for the pre boom time but ireland aint better off pre 1998 thats for sure. This country is shambles now...i for a foreigner don't see it that way, shambles in Dail yeah not elsewhere.

As far as the cuts are cocnerned....one don't go about with a mushetti and start hacking whatever one could find. Its the quangos that needed to go but still there....FAS the biggest white elephant needed to go but still there etc etc.

It's not arrogance. You come across as someone who has not lived in this country for more than 10 years. The boom kicked started in 1988. With the assistance of EU money the country attracted investment from the States and elsewhere. The real work (1994-2001) was certaintly was not built on the backs of immigrant workers as we know it now, the census will show this.

I would not say throw away. The Irish Government did actively go to the eastern countries calling for the labour force to come and work here for x period of time. it was needed as the country was going through its second phase, the blasted property bubble years. hotels were built etc (many now zombies) it needed more workers because the country, on the contrary to a lot of self righteous people here think, was mostly working already. again, check the central statistic figures and dail debates. but again, it was clear that these jobs were temporary and their was certaintly no promises or guarantees in writing to family reunification , citizenship or permission to remain if work was no longer available. student visas made it clear that one's purpose was to study, only work a certain period, attend reckonised courses and then leave. how many are required by law to pay income taxes? what contributions do they give, ... the landlords, shop keepers?


The bit what monife said is a bit mad. despite everything, there is now more confidence in the irish people in that they are far more educated and trained and are not afraid to get out there. many still have the connections and experiences. the country is not as bad as the 1980's, yet

but monife is right in one way. the boom did nothing for the less well off. despite the grants in education etc they did not take the opportunities or they were not forced into them. they were allowed to enter stupid transactions they would never have a hope of paying off in a sane world.

out of the many non eu people in ireland, how many are working in professions compared to low skill / minuim wage jobs?

[acme4242]

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/ ... print.html

3) Paragraph (h) of subsection (1) shall not apply to
an applicant for a certificate of naturalisation to
whom subsection (4) applies.

(b) that applicant’s spouse was in the public service

This tiny line exempts public service employees from the draconian discrimination that is put on Ordinary Irish Citizens families by the Irish Dept of Justice.

Literally this little line means a different law and privilege if one of your family is (or was) in the public service. This type of cronyism and self-service is a scandal. And such discrimination by a public service towards its national citizens is unheard of anywhere else in the world.

[walrusgumble]

That is the problem with politics here, there is no alternatives. I am not asking by the way for a party to either be one or the other (ie left wing or right wing, f*ck that text book ideology sh*te). I get what you are saying about Sinn Fein and Greens. But, out of interest, there are many clowns out there who would not be interested in Sinn Fein just because of their name and have not even considered their policy. Ironically for ye lot, Sinn Fein were one of the few groups to consistently campagin and support immigrant's right, one example, being against the referendum change on Citizenship. I personally know 4 local councillors from Sinn Fein from various councils who went public and campaigned against semi state bodies who were breaking the law when they paying EU nationals below minimum wage. FF were not doing it, neither were FG and Labour at the time (in those areas) were non existant or still thinking Guvera was cool. And anyone who still thinks the Shinners will still be this champagne socialist lark (Mr Adams) is delluded, they will be trying to get the Yanks to invest in NI in the coming years, their marxist babble will go out the window.

FF, they have being voted in for a majority of this State's history! Fine Gael have barely saw office but with a few gaps, and when they did, things got WORSE (to be fair, FF in powere ala Jack Lynch's government did nothing to help). Bruton, with the exception of the Northern Ireland Question, was a decent Taoiseach even if he was not persoanally liked.

"all the locals were living in the 4 holidays a year bubble built on immigrants backs! But what immigrant's got in reverse? discrimination not just from locals but also state controlled policies"

How long have you been living here? All the locals? Really? Built on Immigrants backs?

I don't recall too many working in the IFSC or top echaeleons of business, that would not hae done so already. It would be worth nothing that in the end, HP Intel and co, brought foreigners IN here, instead of hiring Irish, simply because they would accept lowerer wages. You come across as a blow in. The econmic boom has its foundation from 1988 - Tallaght Strategy, moving slowly on to circa 1994. Up until 2001 there was genuine growth and exports. The immigrants involvement here during this period is over stated, how many were here?

The period from 2001 to onwards came the influx of immigrants, First the Russians and then the Turks (via groups like ) and in 2004, the new EU states. By that point there need was based on (false) illusion that the Irish had disposable money for resturants, hotels etc etc. THe immigrant was welcome to the jobs, ones where, due to their earnings, paid little or not income tax (ok lets be franks, VAT is paid on all goods) lets be honest about it, very few people got anything out of them, ie employers and landlords!!!! (of course customers got served etc, and well, of course the lads on the buildings did well) They got well paid, (most of them) and had better living standard than they did in their home areas. Social welfare was more generous. (fair enough) So don't come larking about that it was all one sided. Yes things were hard for them, but of course they would, if you or me went to eg New York, dispite our education and skills we may never get the chance to use them and maybe suck on jobs eg building sites, but thats the risk/knowledge of emmigrating.

Now lets get one thing clear, all of the above was good for Ireland, it made people think about their position in the world (unfortunately, leading many Irish to dig their heads so far up their own ar*es) But to go on bout "off the backs of immigrants" is too wide. yes them contributed, yes they helped the farce that was the boom continue for a few more years as the MAJORITY OF THE IRISH WORKFORCE WAS IN EMPLOYMENT (so sod your, oh they did jobs Irish did not want to do, how could they, they already had jobs, double jobbing aint worth it tax wise)[/b]


Please show me the posters, documentation that "guaranteed" citizenship. Why do you have difficulty with the line as per the citizenship act that says, its the Minister's absolute discretion? The legislation makes it crystal clear that period of time should not include time as an asylum seeker, and that one needed to get status registered first


HAve spouses of Irish Citizens actually been REFUSED citizenship? WHY?

REverse Discrimination, that does not effect ones application for citizenship. It effects their rights to bringing family members that are beyond the level of children. That Moylan case is not set in stone, there might be cases more fitting eg if there was actual proof that the mother/grandmother/niece etc ACTAULLY HAD LIVED with either spouse previously unlike Moylan.

Lets be frank about it, in light of many threads here, one of the first thing, some immigrants do upon getting citizenship is leave for Europe, threating the Irish passport as a meal ticket, contrary to what they had sworn before a district court judge.


But yes, policies are wrong in the sense that they are hidden, made up as you go along, and its basically a lottery. And it is not going to change with the new bill. Can I take it that if these policies where made clear and in writing in legislation ytou would not have many complaints?

Genie mac! when walrusgumble does his mumble aye! Right....i am gonna separate grain from the chaff...

How many do you know who has worked in IFSC? You see this is your problem mate (eyes wide shut)...going into your local McDonalds and served behind a counter by a South Asian or a East Asian and you think the lot (foreigners) of them works there!

Intel and google are gonna get cheap labour in and pay them below the minimum wage? Have you worked there man? Dude which world are you living in? its not PADDY MCNAMARA builders and developers somewhere in blarney cork.....its INTEL/HP/GOOGLE...hang on...i come again....INTEL/HP/GOOGLE.

aahh..hang on a second about going to NY....if you go to NY with your education and experience....you will defo get your worth out...unless you are suggesting the Irish at the time of famine or uneducated ones nowadays went there and didn't find any jobs or only found them at building sites. Ofcourse if a an uneducated Pole comes to Ireland what is he going to do....odd job! you have a habit of brushing everything with one brush.

(unfortunately, leading many Irish to dig their heads so far up their own ar*es)

You said it yourself.

Please show me the posters, documentation that "guaranteed" citizenship. Why do you have difficulty with the line as per the citizenship act that says, its the Minister's absolute discretion? The legislation makes it crystal clear that period of time should not include time as an asylum seeker, and that one needed to get status registered first

You have already eaten humble pies in a different forum...where you sterenously defended the minister of injustice unequality and mickey mouse reform...shall i start quoting facts and figures again to you!

Lets be frank about it, in light of many threads here, one of the first thing, some immigrants do upon getting citizenship is leave for Europe, threating the Irish passport as a meal ticket, contrary to what they had sworn before a district court judge.

SO??!!?? why is it fair of JOHN O'SULLIVAN or MARY O'SULLIVAN to jet off to OZ to find work while naturalised MUHAMMAD ABIOLA or SUKHWINDER SINGH has to work for the sake of working? He she has every right to go wherever he she wants! Ireland ain't Baath party or the Talibans as you said before.

But yes, policies are wrong in the sense that they are hidden, made up as you go along, and its basically a lottery. And it is not going to change with the new bill. Can I take it that if these policies where made clear and in writing in legislation ytou would not have many complaints?

Policies are wrong but what are you doing about it? oh hang...let me quote you...

(unfortunately, leading many Irish to dig their heads so far up their own ar*es)

are you the same?

grain from the chaff? maybe knowing what you are talking about when it comes to what goes on in state departments and the oireachtas might be a starting point. slagging off sinn fein too, probably a more immigrant friendly party.. but then in fairness, your country, and this, don't have a good relationship with them

1. well on this matter, you raised the issue. and there have been many threads of self righteous here too as to false or misunderstood entitlements. but i will happily discuss some. i am simply responding to some very naive comments made by you about irish politics. and i laugh my mule off at others who would swear that their "great ones" are/were above corruption, murder etc

2. mcdonalds and immigrants: well, its it simple, you would if you enter the said restuarant, see a person of the said nationality in a mcdonalds uniform, with a name tag, behind the counter, asking you what you would like to order, one would tend to understand that they are an employee. the same goes for resturants, pubs, cleaning staff, tesco etc. other than that, i never denied that immigrants do not or can not run their own business. but you really think the majority earn enough to be taxed for income tax? other than that eyes very much wide open



3. ifsc, yes i do as a matter of fact. between 1997-2005ish, 2 older brothers (one accountant, one auditor), 3 cousins (2 lawyers, one sales rep) and a good friend (civil engineer for a building contractor) i can assure you, with the exceptions of those from asia (indian,qutar, chinese, 2-3 korean, japanese) and us and european (few russians) there were not too many immigrants based there. certaintly not the amount you believe. personally, i had worked in various civil servant jobs in education and justice (not immigration) and had some dealings with people over there. (hell, get out of cs asap)

4. Intel/Google/Dell, i would not have bothered referring to this, had i noticed that this was discussed. but, do i know people working there? 2 housemates of the german nationality. fair enough this is hearsay, but they don't pay that well as you would imagine with skills and experience. ever deal with dell customer service? talking to an asian national far east, who has sh&t english and knows little (or pretends) about the product and goes through 5 minute charde before you get through to the people back in ireland. but, this could be turned the other way. whats the point having these groups who avail of the corporation tax if they are not employing irish. are you sure dell in limerick brought in mostly foreigners?

5. you definitely are a blow in. famine? you know any irish people who were trained and skilled who went to the us in the 1970-1990's? yes work could be got, legally too, if you were pals of the gaa. but not neccessarily in the trade you wanted. just like many pole etc who are teachers, phd and master students etc doing lovely jobs here. not everyone aspires to working with a shovel and bricks and mortar. you take what you are given, and retrain. oh ye, then there is that little issue of (a) work visas (b) damn all jobs (c) difficulty getting visas since bush


6. your next comment takes the biscuit. how does citing out the ills brought by the boom concern the policies of immgration that do not effect many irish people/ you intentionally are misquoting me. that comment refers to how the irish people have lost the run of themselves and became complacent. those were separate comments in separate paragraphs dealing with separate issues. but, to answer you now in the context that you put it: it is not to be up ones arse for setting out strict immigration controls so that a country can provide for its inhabitants in the future. ireland is simply trying to learn from the disasters that the english have down to their country years ago, to avoid facial outburst and clear segregation, and non integration,. this is a small country and does not have a past record of continued economic growth. it needs to tred carefully now when to close its doors (legally and compliance with eu law) when it cant take any more. as an english person, you would not be unfamilar with the words arrogance and up one's mule when people have discribed your country's people.
(for the record, that is not intended to be a dig at you or most english people, who are sound)

7. what am i going to do about it? i am concerned with who irish people and those who oridinarily reside in ireland are going to deal with this country. i am not for spending more tax payers money for a brutal department simply so x and b can now get their citizenship. they have waited 5 years, 2-3 years won't kill them if they really intend to live here. they aint going to be deported and pretty much have the same rights now than what they would have in the future (if they were threatened with deportation, thats a different matter, then i propose stamp 4 renewals in order for them to find work within 1 year and depending on their actual past social welfare contributions, some access to welfare which would not hurt their applications) they knew that it will take this long, so with regret they can't complain. but i would propose a more streamline method of conducting these applications as it would actually save money. i do not have a problem with the restrictions on crime and reliance on social welfare.

8. am i up my own mule? that's for others to decide, i do not sit around wondering whether i am or not or how people preceive me, particularily on a blog on the net. but i will say, the boom did not change me, in fact it made me dislike irish people more. as i said in point 6 and questions below, you might not want to be too quick to make comments like that. this is simply an honest response to a lot of guff (in fairness some is accurate and honestly viewed by those who said it) raised by others over the years about this country.

9. humble pie? you can start by answering my question instead of avoiding it. WHERE DOES IT SAY CITIZENSHIP IS GUARANTEED? i will gove you one very very simple but most relevant fact, the citizenship act of 1956-2004. again with the misquoating. i said it was unfair and tough. i said some reform should be made, but i never said the minister was completly wrong, if they were more public for all to see. many irish people would agree in many cases for refusals. i doubt other countries would be any different so you can take back your humble pie there is no custard. with regard to stats etc, you were thanked, you did something every few do, and back up what you say.



now that i have responded i want you and others to answer the follow,, some tend to be ignored, conveniently

1. where did this country promise, gurantee one would definitely be allowed to stay after their visas expired?

2. where did this country promise, guarantee one would definitely get citizenship?

3. did ye not know about these problems before making a decision, if not, why not?

4. how does your country, past and present, treat immigrants when it comes to access to employment, social welfare, health services, tolerance of race, religion, different attitudes, immigration laws both domestically and eu? uk and france, if i recall are regular visitors to the echr and ecj on these issues (that is a response to another person's ridiculous notion in a previous thread that after ireland's .. i think second ever time before ecj on freemovement issues, (the first case grundig, ireland succeeded!) that it is regularly before eu court)

5. who told people who are not effected by eu law that they could bring parents, siblings uncles here on the basis of marriage to irish national, even eu law has its limits, if you can't proof that they were from the same "house hold" in country of origin (exclude one's rights under refugee act)

[walrusgumble]

Fianna Fail and Fine Gael are cut from the same cloth. They have very little difference. However, traditionally, the main differences was the Fine Gael, traditionally were seen as the big farmers, a large proportionate of Lawyers and Judges, devoutly catholic (but happy to take prostestants), and completely anti republican party - they were akin, with some notable exceptions, to the Tories in the UK. Prior to Haughey, Fianna Fail was a catch all party, they claimed to represent all and in fairness they appeared to hae done so; small farmers, farmer labours, townies etc. The party was wide enough for more socially mind to the capitalist. Of course, this could not be sustained and the big wigs had to come in to fund the party and get the state moving. People harp on about corruption etc in Fianna Fail, fairn enough, but Fine Gael are no angels: Michael Lowry! Kenny was recently with a few builders at a Fine Gael fundraiser, one which loose lips Creighton got cracked on the knuckles for publicly condemining.

Now as for the last part, the i"n fairness part". There is no change of heart. Its called giving a balanced discussion. Its something alot of people here need to consider. And for an English person well use of idiot governments and how politics runs in this side of the world, that comment of yours was a bit ridiculous. You say that its not the Irish people but the government. WTF? Who votes them in? This is not Iraq or Afghanistan, nor it is Northern Ireland in the 1950-1980's (Gerrymandering - though funny enough with recent constituency changes, some self interested politicans might suggest other wise) People made a free choice to put these people in and hae a free choice in kicking them out now or to not re elect them

. It is in response to this notion that FF or any party (unless its Zanu PF or B'aath Party) are all of a sudden completely in control of everything. They were not. The people on the ballot poll voted them in time and time again. Why? Stupidity maybe, but also a clear lack of competence and confidence in the opposition party and their inability to provide an alternative view.

By the way, don't believe the hype with labour. they have not even told us where the party stands, and if your not in the public sector your fecked. Don't think for one minute that neither labour or fine gael would get rid of the quango committees etc without a fight (as dermot morgan use to say, "Jobs for the boys"), the change of government of 1992 shows this.

Its time for the people themselves to look into the mirror , they did nothing to stop the madness

Now, returning to more relevant issues, Immigration matters..................

Fine Gael/Fail are cut from the same cloth.....Labour is over hyped....then the only ones left are the Greens/Sinn Fein (no thank you).

Not many good choices left now is there? BTW when FF was voted in it was good times, all the locals were living in the 4 holidays a year bubble built on immigrants backs! But what immigrant's got in reverse? discrimination not just from locals but also state controlled policies.

Although locals voted FF in but it was due to a mirage put infront of them by these FF muppets of which this current DoJ incharge hails from (brother of you know who). Its post 2008 FF policies which are a problem. Anyway thats me whinging again. Back to immigration matters....guaranteed Irish citizenship for all spouses of Irish citizens (of good character) provided they are married 3 years & no reverse discrimination towards the state's citizen. Proper recognition of EU directive of free movement and no micky mouse stuff by the DoJ on that matter.

listen, things have been bad for immigrants but, no where near as bad as other countries in the eu over the years, i keep thinking that you are english, are you? (not that it is relevant mind, but if you are, your country have been no angels) in what sense have immigrants being discriminated without being allowed access to the courts to end it? what do you mean by discrimination or is this hyerbole like the others?.. (that is a genuine question)

as monife said. its actually very much pre 2008 thats the problem. yes, the country was far more generious in before this (nothing wrong with that), but it failed to implement proper immigration laws to prevent potential abuses on the extreme scale and in normal every day life set down consistent decisions. as i said in previous threads, i am aware of cases where, to put it frankly dodgy marriages to irish citizens got in whilst legitimate ones were refused. look at the uk, not only does it deal with appeals, they publish the reports.

last time i checked doj does not enjoy the same influence as the finance minister. we are lead to believe that the government acts collectively and not on one department. somehow, immigration was not on the agenda, for fear of being branded dearly beloved

as for the mirage, in 2007 election? wrong. it was due to fear and distrust of the other parties. people believed that ff, despite everthing were the safer party to deal with well known future problems.

guaranteed. no way in hell. you must proove that there is a subsisting marriage and actually live in ireland with spouse first, and refrain from crime. then you won't have problems. the legislation should also consider ensuring that marriage is subsisting at least 1-2 years after been granted citizenship. eu free movement has no effect on irish people unless one moves. look at article 29 of the constitution. reserve discrimination, yes i agree but within limits, paretns ok provided they are fully covered financially, and do not need to recourse to employment or welfare (for a certain period) . siblings/nephews etc that did not live with non eu spouse, no! that would be consistent with eu law

by the way, dermot ahern is not even related to bertie ahern!!!!!!!!!! well done !

[walrusgumble]

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/ ... print.html

3) Paragraph (h) of subsection (1) shall not apply to
an applicant for a certificate of naturalisation to
whom subsection (4) applies.

(b) that applicant’s spouse was in the public service

This tiny line exempts public service employees from the draconian discrimination that is put on Ordinary Irish Citizens families by the Irish Dept of Justice.

Literally this little line means a different law and privilege if one of your family is (or was) in the public service. This type of cronyism and self-service is a scandal. And such discrimination by a public service towards its national citizens is unheard of anywhere else in the world.

nonsense

below is a consolidated version of the citizenship act 1956-2004 (unoffical, but does what its asked)

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Consolid ... onINCA.pdf

Section 2 :“public serviceâ€

[Monifé]

Did you forget thousands and thousands of international students who were allowed 20 hrs a week work but working full time, they are also getting classed as immigrants here in your statement i think.

No I never mentioned anything about students.

[Monifé]

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/ ... print.html

3) Paragraph (h) of subsection (1) shall not apply to
an applicant for a certificate of naturalisation to
whom subsection (4) applies.

(b) that applicant’s spouse was in the public service

This tiny line exempts public service employees from the draconian discrimination that is put on Ordinary Irish Citizens families by the Irish Dept of Justice.

Literally this little line means a different law and privilege if one of your family is (or was) in the public service. This type of cronyism and self-service is a scandal. And such discrimination by a public service towards its national citizens is unheard of anywhere else in the world.

I think it might not be the case for everyone. I work in the public service and there has been no special exceptions for me.

Maybe there is in Citizenship, but one would assume if there are special exceptions for civil servants spouses citizenship applications that there would also be special exceptions for residency applications.

I am in fact taking the Minister for Justice to court over the refusal of my non-eu partners residency application.

[acme4242]

Its from when John O'Donoghue took away Post-Nuptial Citizenship
from Irish Emigrant families, He made a written exception for Irish
Public servants abroad.
However way you look at it, its discrimination.

Earlier, there was open sex discrimination in the residency and citizenship
legislation, it was this sex discrimination Fianna Fail replaces with reverse
discrimination.

Until 1985, the female spouse of an Irish Citizenship obtained automatic
citizenship upon marriage.
Then this changed to just "spouse" for the sake of equality, but they put
in the 3 years rules, and a number of loops and hoops, it didn't apply to
Naturalised Irish, you had to made an affidavit.
This was completely removed from all Irish in 2005, except Irish
Public servants abroad.

In Ireland, the female spouse and widow did not need to register as alien.
this changed in 2004, now everyone must register as alien.
But an Irish widow now, has no right to residency. Thanks Herr McDowell

Then came reverse discrimination against all Irish, this arrived
with the choice of Dermot Ahern, that Irish Citizens should not be given
equal rights to other EU citizens.
Whereas other countries such as Italy ensure own nationals have equal
rights.

Its like a nosedive of rights and equality, and your case is right up
there, by backdoor removal of dual citizenship benefits and privileges.

[walrusgumble]

Its from when John O'Donoghue took away Post-Nuptial Citizenship
from Irish Emigrant families, He made a written exception for Irish
Public servants abroad.
However way you look at it, its discrimination.

Earlier, there was open gender discrimination in the residency and citizenship
legislation, it was this gender discrimination Fianna Fail replaces with reverse
discrimination.

Until 1985, the female spouse of an Irish Citizenship obtained automatic
citizenship upon marriage.
Then this changed to just "spouse" for the sake of equality, but they put
in the 3 years rules, and a number of loops and hoops, it didn't apply to
Naturalised Irish, you had to made an affidavit.
This was completely removed from all Irish in 2005, except Irish
Public servants abroad.

In Ireland, the female spouse and widow did not need to register as alien.
this changed in 2004, now everyone must register as alien.
But an Irish widow now, has no right to residency. Thanks Herr McDowell

Then came reverse discrimination against all Irish, this arrived
with the choice of Dermot Ahern, that Irish Citizens should not be given
equal rights to other EU citizens.
Whereas other countries such as Italy ensure own nationals have equal
rights.

Its like a nosedive of rights and equality, and your case is right up
there, by backdoor removal of dual citizenship benefits and privileges.

here is the memorandum for the 2004. i should have use this to back my self in previous post

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/B402004. ... 402004.pdf


respectively thats more nonsnese. by the way i was one of the very first posters two years ago that spotted this reverse discrimination when people were discussing the kumar case and that retarded and inconsistent case of metock (ie illegals)


it was a response to the influx of asylum seekers/economic migrants who found ways to side step immigration laws, regardless if the marriage was genuine or not. if it was, the minister granted stamp 4 and permission to be here. due to the reality that divorce and separation was common, it simply wanted to make sure everyone earned their right to citizenship. check the stats at orac.ie and rat.ie

it was only in the period of 2001 - 2004 that the peak of immigration was noted. ireland was badly behind other eu counterparts it took the chen case to really open this countries eyes, with its previous relaxed rules on automatic citizenship whether by birth or marriage by a class of people that were predominatly either asylum seekers, or failed asylum seekers. (people whose rights to reside expired if found to be refugees. it was blatantly obvious that come classes were economic migrants who should have instead come here via offical routes ie work permits if they wanted rights) you won't see too many eu countries have citzenship laws dissimilar to the irish or british.

Department of Justice granted leave to remain in the state to around 10,500 non-nationals between 1996 and February 2003 on the basis of their having an Irish born child.then there was an extra 17,000 under the ibc 05 scheme.Michael McDowell, described as an "abuse of citizenship" whereby citizenship was "conferred on persons with no tangible link to the nation or the State whether of parentage, upbringing or of long-term residence in the State".

your link relates to the 2004 amendment!

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=uk

as for 2001, all that was done was stop automatic citzenship. you now had to live in ireland. marriages don't last to long nowadays. there was caselaw in the courts involving dodgy relationships, potential citizenship abuses etc that led to these changes, also england was the prefect case study when it did similar in the 1980's

i am sorry but you are either naive or .. well i won't say beause i really do not wish to offend you or others.

. how is it discrimination? you realise that "positive" discrimination is allowed in certain cases. isn't there discrimination for cheaper car insurance for people over a certain age or gender?

you realise that you won't get many people serving their country abroad in the future if it effects their family rights. any country depends on these embassies in order to start negotiations and attractive investment from the country in which they are based. an embassy promotes their country to others and assists their country men and women. look at the legislation again, if you produce good reasons the minister may waive the conditions for others. when the ordinary irish person leaves, is he representing the country on a professional basis? you do understand what a public servant is don't you?


1985? now you are being ridiculous. yes MANY countries did and still do discriminate on that basis or similar.(obviously not eu) the british were the same see the abdullah, cables v uk ecthr case.

you realise that it was only ten years before that the eec was attempting to improve the lot for women in society.do you realise that "equality" in many countries, particularily catholic dominated countries was only a fancy word back then. in 1985, this country did not even have legal separation never mind divorce. this country did not even give solid legislative rights to a female spouse with regard to property whilst the other was still alive and married. many countries mumbled!!!!! it was an irish commissioner, patrick hillery who had the task to see it through. you know what the reason was? pathetic ecomonic reasons
by the way. this country still has an offensive constitutional provision on women's place in the home, does not mean it is taken literally. demand for citizenship in 1985 was not like it is today, thus it was presumed that there was no need to review the 1956 act then


you think that is bad, prior to 1993 a child born out of wedlock only got citizenship if the mother was german

http://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/Stand ... ?nn=439476

he did the country a service with that act. why should someone be allowed citizenship if they have no intentions of living in the said country.sure if its simply to move around the eu, wouldn't they have little difficulty as their spouse is an eu citizen thus freemovement? marriage is not what it use to be

UK,Ireland,Netherlands,Denmark,Germany,Austria,Bulgaria,Latvia,Lithuania,Slovak Republic,Sweden,Estonia and Poland don't treat their citizens the same as those under the directive unless singh case applies. thats nearly half of the eu and a substantial porportion of the population thats something you forgot to mention when quoting below

http://irelandsreversediscrimination.wordpress.com/

fianna fail were not in power in 1985.

you are hopping from one issue to another. how does reservse discrimination affect one's application for citizenship? where in eu law does it state absolute gurantee to be allow all members of one's family to come here when they were not immediate memebers of one's family (i refer to family members other than parents and children)

you still have not backed up your assertion about other eu countries not doing the same with regard to public servants abroad. the uk is the same
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... uirements/

speaking of germans look at this
http://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/Stand ... ?nn=439476


"In Ireland, the female spouse and widow did not need to register as alien.
this changed in 2004, now everyone must register as alien.
But an Irish widow now, has no right to residency. Thanks Herr McDowell"


that is absolutely and utter bol&oxs!!!!!! i can assure you of that, my sister best friend is a national of swaizland or zimbabwe (can't remember) she marrried an irish man, who sadly died around two - three years ago. she still has her stamp 4 and will likely never be taken away from her .although married for over 10 years, she did not have enough time living in ireland with spouse i before he died, in order to avail of the 3 year rule but she was able to count it for 5 years, and got her citizenship 2 months ago. the same would apply to a man. a lawyer would go on a field day with the minister if he tried to deport someone on that basis. when have you heard stories like the one you imagined? so anyone in the position you suggest can relax!

next time do some research of the poltical and social development of countries before using it in your argument. why you raised rules from 1985 to support your argument i do not know.

[acme4242]

Regular Migration to Ireland paper delivered at the
Incorporated Law Society Seminar: Rights to Reside in Ireland
on 14 May 2002 at Blackhall Place, Dublin 7
by Brian Ingoldsby1

Certain non-nationals are exempted from the registration requirement
The exemptions include children under 16 and the female spouses or widows
of Irish citizens.

7.—For the avoidance of doubt, the fact that a foreign national
seeking to enter into or be present or remain in the State is married,
or related by marriage, to a particular person does not, of itself,
create any entitlement for that foreign national to be granted a visa,
entry permission or residence permission, or have a residence per-
mission renewed under this Act.

Marriage itself not to create immigration advantage.

you said a lawyer would go on a field day with the minister if he tried to
deport someone on that basis,
The Minister has shown he does not care about genuine families,
or being taken to the courts.

But fair play to your sister best friend, anyone with an ounce of decency
would know its the right thing to do. She was lucky. Did she have any pull ?
Because there are no family marriage rights anymore. Everything is at
ministerial discretion

The vague thing called ministerial discretion. In practice, so-called
ministerial discretion is exercised largely on the Minister’s behalf by a
large number of departmental officials. Anomalies and inconsistencies in
decisions are common, as are delays and what too frequently appear to
be discriminatory practices, and arbitrary inexplicable conclusions.

[walrusgumble]

Regular Migration to Ireland paper delivered at the
Incorporated Law Society Seminar: Rights to Reside in Ireland
on 14 May 2002 at Blackhall Place, Dublin 7
by Brian Ingoldsby1

Certain non-nationals are exempted from the registration requirement
The exemptions include children under 16 and the female spouses or widows
of Irish citizens.

7.—For the avoidance of doubt, the fact that a foreign national
seeking to enter into or be present or remain in the State is married,
or related by marriage, to a particular person does not, of itself,
create any entitlement for that foreign national to be granted a visa,
entry permission or residence permission, or have a residence per-
mission renewed under this Act.

Marriage itself not to create immigration advantage.

you said a lawyer would go on a field day with the minister if he tried to
deport someone on that basis,
The Minister has shown he does not care about genuine families,
or being taken to the courts.

But fair play to your sister best friend, anyone with an ounce of decency
would know its the right thing to do. She was lucky. Did she have any pull ?
Because there are no family marriage rights anymore. Everything is at
ministerial discretion

The vague thing called ministerial discretion. In practice, so-called
ministerial discretion is exercised largely on the Minister’s behalf by a
large number of departmental officials. Anomalies and inconsistencies in
decisions are common, as are delays and what too frequently appear to
be discriminatory practices, and arbitrary inexplicable conclusions.

Seriosuly, when have you heard that a widow/widower been asked to leave? couldn't you bet your last euro that it would have been in the papers ? fair enough, you are right it should be set in legislation

as for the sister's friend. she was married to her husband for ten years, they lived in ireland for roughly two before his death (they lived in her own country prior to this) there was nothing special about them they got no help from any td but they were made wait for about 1 year i think.

the same position for those who marry an but are separated / divorced to an irish national. like the provision under the eu directive in relation to marriage to other eu spouses if you can show 3 years + of real married life (having a child might help) you will probably have a good chance to be allowed to stay in ireland. again, though, that should be down in legislation. anything less than 2-3 may be a problem if there is no kid or that does not even cover period of courting.

You are actually scare mongering now, but in fairness, if you do not see it in writing in legislation, they who could blame you.

Point 7 that you are referring to quiet clearly deals with the marriage of convenience issue. Any legitimate couple who can finance themselves will be ok. But, I can see problems, which you are clearly alluding to. I note from another thread in relation to a UK national and her spouse, the cops here were playing up claiming to be experts (all of a sudden) in the authencity of certain documents.

The bottom line should be, and this does not sound romantic, the couple should seek legal advice regarding immigration before marriage, and put themselves in a position of getting all proofs together. How many false couples would actaully have a joint bank account with access to the ordinary family funds? Not many I would imagine. (you get the idea) Bascially, seek practical advise so as to avoid all heartaches which may leave them with little or no remedy. Even delaying marriage if it is possible (that one sounds odd, you is to say that a couple who fall in love after 6 months and marry within a year is no more real than a long term couple). I would advocate that the blanket refusual and deportation order on refused asylum seekers should be lifted and the minister should use his discretion, provided that there is real solid evidence before him. they guidelines are set out in ECHR cases, I think. (Its a bit different with asylum seekers who are still to get a decision, BTW, I am aware, from second hand knowledge (this not solid to justify my argument) that some have been granted status on marriage - so there is some inconsistency )

The field day issue, well, if the Minister intended to deport, he has to consider the factors set out in Section 3 of 1999. All cases are different but he still has to consider some of the following

+ Length of time in Irleand (legal and illegal) If you have 3+ years legal, unless you are a total clown ie crime, what justification is there to be removed? partcularily were the family have not been a burden to the state?

+ length of marriage, irrespective of place of residence

+ other family, what if there are children, who may have got status on the basis of their birth itself, via their irish parent etc. In many cases, it may be completely

But yes, you are right what you say and it does live families worried, naturally. But a good lawyer you sort that out, or even solid research by the person concerned.