Irish Citizen marrying non-EU (Indonesian) National

[scrudu]

Hi AIBO,
Yeah, unfortunately it seems to be the case. But the biggest differentiator seems to be whether the non-EU applicant is from a "visa required" country or not. If the non-EU spouse is not from a "visa required" country, the chances are better of getting the Stamp. Or so it seems anyway!

Very sad but true!

[Static]

non-EU spouse (not from visa required country, e.g. Hong Kong) to enter Ireland to join EU spouse
- Apply for a D-Type Spouse visa to enter the country
- On entering, go to GNIB to get Stamp
- GNIB may grant "permission to reside and work" for period of time between one and five years
NOTE: This is more likely to happen for non "visa required nationals"
- After 3 months residence, apply via form EU_1 for permission to stay and work (6 months)

Hello. I am from South Africa and my husband is English. We moved to Ireland last week and were informed by customs to go to the GNIB. The GNIB won't help us at all! They in turn referred us to the Justice department?!? I have been trying to call them since Monday with no luck at all. No idea what to do or even where they are situated. At customs they only stamped my passport for until the 9th of October. We are here, my husband is working, we rented a house, the kids are in school and I must leave on the 9th? Please help.

[archigabe]

The information I had from someone (visa required national) who had moved to Ireland after marrying an Irish citizen was
"He arrived at Dub airport with a D-spouse visa and had a stamp4 permit stamped on his passport at immigration in the airport.He then took the stamp4 permit to the (Garda station/GNIB) with marriage cert+papers of Irish spouse where he was issued a registration card almost immediately which entitled him to work"

[scrudu]

Hi Static,
did you enter the country on a particular visa or not?

Dept of Foreign Affairs Visa Information http://www.dfa.ie/services/visa/06.asp states

Citizens of countries which are not part of the European Economic Area (EEA - see below) who wish to stay in Ireland for longer than 3 months for work, study or other reasons must seek permission to remain from the Department of Justice through the irish Naturalsation and Immigration Service (INIS)

The INIS's address is
13-14 Burgh Quay
Dublin 2
Tel: 00 353 1 666 9100

These citizens will also require a re-entry visa if they wish to leave Ireland and return. These can be obtained from the Department of Justice at 13-14 Burgh Quay, Dublin 2.

Dept of Justice website is http://www.justice.ie/80256E01003A21A5/ ... Q65WHUV-en This contains all contact details (address and telephone nums)

Ireland visa requirements: http://www.justice.ie/80256E010039E882/ ... of2006.pdf

European Communities (Free Movement of Persons) Regulations 2006 Application Forms http://www.justice.ie/80256E01003A21A5/ ... Q6PEK7V-en

these EU forms are the ones relevant to you as your husband (EU citizen) has relocated to Ireland for work. Read the site for further information.

Normally you cannot get an appointment or "meet" with Immigration, you can only telephone the helpline.

[archigabe]

Hello all,
It took me only a week to get the 'D' spouse to join my E.U citizen wife in Ireland. I am a visa required national.

[AIBO]

hi archigabe,
This happened because you have already been granted visa and visited ROI before (1-2 weeks for reentry visa as officials assured). Regularly it takes from 4 to 8 weeks if you apply for the first time. By the way, here you can check whether you succeeded or not, if you ask for your application number.

[archigabe]

hi archigabe,
This happened because you have already been granted visa and visited ROI before (1-2 weeks for reentry visa as officials assured). Regularly it takes from 4 to 8 weeks if you apply for the first time.

ON the contrary,it's been a long and painful experience for me! The first time I had applied for the visa to visit my girlfriend in Ireland was from the United States where I had been working.I got the visa in 2 weeks after having to produce all sorts of docs.When I was in Ireland, i found a firm willing to employ me and sponsor me for a work visa, so i went back to my home country to apply for the work visa. After i turned in the docs, i didnt get any info. from the embassy for more than 2months and was totally in the dark about what was going on inspite of many calls. So my employer just hired someone else since i didnt know when i was coming back.
The embassy then returned my papers after 3months without any explanation.A few months later my fiancee &i decided to get married in Dub, so this time I applied for a visit visa from Delhi again.2months later, i got another rejection letter saying i had not provided enough proof that we were going to get married, even though we had provided letter from marriage registrar in Dubin that we had an appointment there.So, only after we got married in India that we were finally able to get the spouse visa for me. The moral of the story is, it doesnt matter if u've already been to Ireland and returned without any problems,they want to keep you out esp. if you are from India (unless you are a nurse)!

[scrudu]

I agree with Archigabe, that it has no bearing whether you have been to Ireland before or not. The time taken depends on where you apply. It seems that the Embassy in India handles the visa applications directly (i.e. not forwarded on to Dublin like others), and therefore responses are much quicker.

But Archigabe, I wouldnt feel too victimised as an Indian. It seems to be across the board for all non-EU citizens without work permits/visas

But congrats on getting your visa! Great news! After 1 week of my husband's application sitting in the Embassy in Singapore, it's been forwarded to Dublin where it should arrive in 2 weeks, then from there 6-8 weeks wait for it to be processed

[archigabe]

yes, it does seem like that they are pretty strict everytime you apply even if you've travelled to Ireland before! Im not saying that Indians are a innocent group of people who've been unfairly victimised, but Im sure the authorities have some sort of list of nationals from specific countries who are more likely to violate their visas.But then, this post could be controversial, so lets leave it at that!

[AIBO]

scrudu wrote:

I have been advised by the Immigrant Council of Ireland, it is quite possible that on applying for a "D-Spouse visa", the Dept of Justice will only grant a "Type-C Tourist Visa" .
If the Embassy/Dept of Justice feel that you haven't lived together long enough, or have any other worries about your marriage, they may instead issue you a "Type-C Tourist Visa" and leave you to make your application (Option 2 above) on arrival in Ireland.

Is it really true that with "wrong" Type-C Visa one cannot apply for permission to remain and EU_1 form?

By the way 'C Visa' is not 90 days anymore:

http://www.justice.ie/80256E01003A21A5/ ... ug2006.pdf
14th August 2006
Registration and Permission to Remain
If you have been issued with a short term visa (‘C Visa’) you must
leave the State on or before the date stamped on your passport by an
Immigration Officer.

NOTE: UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES CAN A CATEGORY ‘C
VISA’ BE EXTENDED BEYOND 90 DAYS

[scrudu]

wow, I just had a look at those new visa requirements, they have seriously edited the requirements and added quite a few ones. I love how they just slipped in a new link but dont even add a note to the main page that the visa requirements have changed. Very bloody sly!

I note also that they now helpfully clarify before applying, that the Type C visa cannot be extended. We had to find out this information after my husband (then fiance) entered the country and applied for an extension. I have read in other documentation that they plan to only issue C Visas for the duration of the purpose of the visit, with a max of 90 days.

I am now quite worried as they only offer 2 options of visas to spouses of Irish citizens:
1. if you are both resident in another country and wish to move to ireland.
2. if the non-EU spouse wishes to visit Ireland with their Irish spouse.

I wonder how our application for my husband (currently in Indonesia) who wishes to join me in Ireland will be handled The application is currently with the Dept of Justice awaiting processing.

AIBO: As the doc states, the C Visa cannot be extended. They seem to have removed the category of visa "Join Irish/EU Spouse" which previously meant that a spouse of an EU member applied for a D-Spouse visa (as does spouse of Irish citizen). They do not mention which form to complete but I am guessing the EU1

I honestly can't comment on how it currently works for the spouse of an EU citizen resdident in Ireland as the new visa doc's have baffled me. It sounds like the non-EU (visa required) spouse should apply directly for a visa to join spouse, but there is no mention of how to do this from inside the country. I think user "Static" is in this situation, and has been back & forth between GNIB & Immigration. Perhaps she can advise on what they are currently saying.

But I do know from my conversations with both the GNIB/Justice, they said that their hands are tied as regards a C-Type visa, as the purpose of this visa is expressly for tourism (short term) purposes, so I imagine that applying to extend it would be breaching the conditions it was granted on. Sorry I cant be more help!

[Static]

I am still very confused.... My husband and I went to the GNIB on Monday. I was worried about sending in my passport with the EU 1 application when I am only legal here in Ireland until the 9th of October this year. After standing in a line for almost 2 hours we got told that we need to get health insurance and that they would then stamp my passport. This seemed too good to be true but.. off we went to get that done.... 800 euro later we are back with health insurance and in the same line again. When we got to the front we were told that we have to do the EU 1 application and then come back and that health insurance is not necessary. So I posted the EU 1 application in yesterday with our passports, marriage certificate, wedding photos etc. Hoping for the best... and will keep posting if I hear anything. Apparently you can go here to see your results. http://www.justice.ie/80256E01003A21A5/ ... sa2909.pdf

[scrudu]

Hi Static,
It sounds like the immigration officials are getting confused with their own procedures! Not surprising considering how badly they are laid out!

I think they mixed up two situations for you.
For the non-EU spouse of an Irish Citizen who enters on a D-Spouse visa, they must present themselves to the GNIB to get a residency stamp in their passport. Recently they now say that the non-EU spouse must have health insurance to boot.

For the non-EU spouse of an EU citizen who has moved here, they should apply via the EU1 form. This must be submitted to the INIS at the Dept of Justice. I dont know if health insurance is required.

Regarding visa decisions, the URL you have is the link to the most recent decisions (i.e. 29.09.2006). This link will change. You should always check for the most recent decisions by going to http://www.justice.ie/80256E01003A21A5/ ... Q65YEVF-en. The link to the decisions is updated every Friday.

[Static]

yep.. confusion reigns hopefully it will be worth it! thanks for the link scrudu.

[scrudu]

Yeah confusion is running high here too. Yesterday we received a letter from the INIS, the Dept of Justice, addressed to my husband saying he should apply for residency using the EU1 form. This boggles the mind because we were told this form was not for use by Irish citizens and their spouses unless they had moved back to Ireland from another EU country and were exercising their Treaty rights.

As my husband and I were not married (not living together long enough to be considered partners) when we moved to Ireland, we were told this EU law didnt apply to us.

Hence after our marriage my husband returned back to Indonesia to apply for a D-Spouse visa to return to Ireland. And we are still apart waiting for a decision.

I cant believe they are now sending this letter saying he should apply via EU1. Either this is a case of another confused Dept of Justice official, or else due to bad advice from Dept of Justice, we wasted a lot of money and time apart with him returning to Indonesia

[Static]

OH no!! this is terrible. But you are an Irish citizen... I was under the impression that the EU 1 is only for EU nationals excercising treaty rights? Also... I hope Indonesia's government departments are at least better than South Africa's. What are you going to do? Surely with a spouse visa he can get a stamp from the GNIB? That was my understanding on monday anyhow.. I was under the impression that they just didn't stamp my passport because of my C-type tourist visa currently in there. The GNIB official was actually amazed at the fact that the customs guys stamped my passport with that. Wonder what the other options would have been...? She checked again with me and even called her supervisor. If you are doing the EU 1 thing, I would suggest putting it all into a nice flip-file type of thing. I printed out pieces of paper with headings of what each pocket contains. Otherwise it's just a whole lot of papers and passports and documents and you know how easily things can be confused.

[scrudu]

Well he won't have to deal with the Indonesian officials as his application is being dealt with by the Irish Embassy (who have forwarded it on to the Dept of Justice for processing).

I too was told by Dept of Justice that EU1 was only for other EU citizens exercising their Treaty rights. If the Dept of Justice now say that he can apply via the EU1, well this advice has come a little bit too late as he has left the country under their advice.

If he is granted this D-Spouse visa, he will be able to enter the country and work nearly immediately so that will be good.

It's just very confusing and frustrating getting different information even when you go directly to the "source", i.e. Dept of Justice

[scrudu]

I am thrilled to say that my husband's Spouse visa application was finally processed and accepted! Yawh!! So just 1 year after he arrived in the country as my fiancé, he has a visa to rejoin me and work here! Only 2 weeks till he gets back:) So the only hassle left is applying for a GNIB card to get his Stamp 4 permit and re-entry visas to be allowed exit the country. Timeline was as follows:

1st Visa (C-Tourist Visa) [5 weeks for visa to be issued]
--------------------------------
10/2005 Entered Ireland as fiancé on C-Tourist visa
-- applied for marriage date but have to give 3 months "Notice of Intent to Marry"
12/2006 Applied for extension of Visa till Marriage Date
02/2006 Visa application refused
03/2006 Appealed decision
03/2006 Visa Appeal Refused
04/2006 Exited Ireland

2nd Visa (C-Tourist Visa) [6 weeks for visa to be issued]
---------------------------------
06/2006 Entered Ireland on C-Tourist visa
07/2006 married in Ireland
08/2006 Exit Ireland at end of C-Tourist visa

3rd Visa (D-Spouse Visa) [6 weeks for visa to be granted]
---------------------------------
11/2006 Enter Ireland on D-Spouse Visa

My advice to any Irish person who wishes to marry their non-EU visa required partner, is to do it outside of Ireland and save yourself a LOT of hassle! There is no such concept as a fiancé visa here, and marrying while on a C-Tourist visa (the only one available to non-EU visa required nationals) only seems gets Immigrations backs up.

[Static]

Excellent!! So happy for you Scrudu I wish you all the best for the future!

[scrudu]

Thanks Static

It's a big load off both of our minds. We were starting to wonder what country the two of us would have to move to in order to both be allowed reside and work. Glad to at least have the choice to stay at home

[jjustyy]

Congratulations Scrudu That was one hell of a ride for you!

[joesoap101]

Static, Im confused. You had a type C tourist visa for Ireland and you are South African? South Africans don't require a tourist visa.. perhaps I misunderstood your post?

[Static]

Yep. Like I said before.. confusion reigns.. I got a Type C tourist visa when I landed in Ireland. Stamped in my passport and valid for a month. My daughter's stamp gave her a month and 2 days. Go figure.

[joesoap101]

That is really strange.. I used to travel to Ireland frequently and got the full 3 months every time. I guess things have changed. And now that I have permission to remain I just get a stamp with the date. But to be honest nothing surprises me anymore seeing the Irelands immigration laws are stuck in the dark ages. A perfect chance to fix the problem, so in typical Irish style new laws are planned which tweak the old one's and introduces new draconian ones.

Dont move to Ireland, you will save yourself a lot of trouble!

[scrudu]

Cheers jjustyy!!

joesoap101: Yeah, the rules on the C Tourist visa have changed very recently. It used to be that they were granted for 3 months automatically. Now they are only granted for the duration of your intended purpose of stay. So if you are only over for a 1 week conference, you get a visa for 1 week. Very strange. I dont know if there were hassles with people on this visa type, or why the change was implemented. I "think" you can go to the GNIB and ask for an extension of the visa (if you have not stayed the 3 months max duration) and request an extention though. Don't quote me on that though!

And yeah, if you had a choice, Ireland is NOT the most ideal place to move to because of immigration issues. Very backward unrefined system. Maybe in a few years it'll improve.