I HAVE WON THE APPEAL!

made_in_ussr · Post by **made_in_ussr** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:46 pm

i dont want to apply for permission to stay here according to my child birth certificate. i dont know why. but i need to look for other options. my child is not a way to obtain PR. i have earned on this right according to my work and my marriage. thats it!

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:48 pm

made_in_ussr wrote:i dont want to apply for permission to stay here according to my child birth certificate. i dont know why. but i need to look for other options. my child is not a way to obtain PR. i have earned on this right according to my work and my marriage. thats it!

I am not saying to go down that route right now. I am just saying that your child is likely easily a British Citizen (which may be a good thing in it's own right), and that you ALSO have a right to remain as the parent of a British Citizen who you are taking care of.

Is you child in school?

made_in_ussr · Post by **made_in_ussr** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:12 pm

how do you think maybe it will be better to apply for a work visa and forget about PR?

Kitty · Post by **Kitty** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:57 pm

You do not need to spend money on a work visa (which, in any event, you would need to leave the UK to apply for).

The main problem is that you do not have particular documents that your husband could presumably supply (or give permission to be disclosed by the relevant agencies).

For this reason, the appeal procedure would probably be useful to you. You could apply to the Tribunal for an order that these documents are disclosed and/or that your husband give witness evidence about his work history.

Take appropriate legal advice: I do not think there is anything to stop you applying for confirmation of PR at a later date when you have more time and better advice, and appealing the outcome of that application.

made_in_ussr · Post by **made_in_ussr** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:12 pm

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:57 pm Post subject:

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You do not need to spend money on a work visa (which, in any event, you would need to leave the UK to apply for).

The main problem is that you do not have particular documents that your husband could presumably supply (or give permission to be disclosed by the relevant agencies).

For this reason, the appeal procedure would probably be useful to you. You could apply to the Tribunal for an order that these documents are disclosed and/or that your husband give witness evidence about his work history.

Take appropriate legal advice: I do not think there is anything to stop you applying for confirmation of PR at a later date when you have more time and better advice, and appealing the outcome of that application.

An adviser on UKBA line told me that my school can apply for a work permit even if I am here in the UK and school doesnt pay for it-the government subsides. right?

My husband could say that he doesnt want to show his documents because it could help me. he is evil. e.g. he wanted to make my life so miserable, he said in Poland that we are false marriage, and he doesnt know me. but our child is his one, etc-so he said untruth, than he looked stupid when he messed in his words and the Polish authorities were on my side.

by the way how does it look like? on wednesday i will send an appeal. when there will be hearing in the court. when will they make the decision. etc

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:24 pm

Forget work permit. Estranged spouses often do not like each other.

What is most important to you? I would say your daughter's welfare, and then yours. I'm sure you are a mother that loves her daughter and wants her to be happy.

You have strong grounds for staying in the UK. Get some proper legal advice and take things forward.

made_in_ussr · Post by **made_in_ussr** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:40 pm

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:24 pm Post subject:

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Forget work permit. Estranged spouses often do not like each other.

What is most important to you? I would say your daughter's welfare, and then yours. I'm sure you are a mother that loves her daughter and wants her to be happy.

You have strong grounds for staying in the UK. Get some proper legal advice and take things forward.

the most ridiculous thing is that my husband and my daughter may stay and live here. but not me. i am an alien!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:22 pm

made_in_ussr wrote:the most ridiculous thing is that my husband and my daughter may stay and live here. but not me. i am an alien!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You need to listen carefully what people have been saying: it looks like you also have a right to stay. You just have some fights ahead to get the proof that you need.

made_in_ussr · Post by **made_in_ussr** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:28 pm

sorry for moaning and weeping. some sleepless nights and huge headache..... i collected all availabled documents and waiting for help to fill in the form and send it till wednesday.
it is veeery dificult to find a lawer the same day...
some of the immigrationboards members are really helpful and try to help me a lot. thank you for giving me the support. we are in the beginning of all this ...

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:36 pm

It can be a challenging situation, since it is hard to get good information (even from lawyers!), and hard to know what to do.

Keep up your spirits and work hard on the appeal!

Azhaar · Post by **Azhaar** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:43 pm

Hi dear, I feel so sorry for you and i wish u all the best, I have been through all of that my husband was disappeared for all this time until i had to beg his family to let him get in contact with me they even asked for money and everything which i refused to pay because its my right..

i kind of understand the reason of the refusal..
can i just ask you.. what were the reason of the divorce..
you have a polish baby.. how old is s/he now..???

ur husband refusing to help which is normal..

did u have any domestic violance records.. this could help u in the court..
get a gp record to show that u have been 5 years in the country..

can you get any evidence to show ur ex working until u got seperated (not divorced) explain that properly to the court.

have you been working since u got separeted (get as much documents to prove that)..

if u need any help u can pm me.. we are kind on the same boat but i have mine kind of sorted.. because i have domestic violance reports. and finally my ex decided to help so i dont send the domestic violance report (kind got scared because that could affect his PR application that he willl send) because i have cautions and court injuctions against him therefore he gave me all the documents apart from his passport..

so i really hope that something will happen to help.. i know its not magic but thats what happened to me because i just gave up..

things might change..

last question why your baby is in poland you are the mother you should have him.. contact social services.. they will help they might provide you with reports..

.... you pm anytime and hope fully i will see if we can do anything to get your case sorted.

best of luck
Azz

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:53 pm

You are still married, so the main topic of this paragraph is not relevant. But the intent is relevant.

But as far as I understand, you do have a court order related to the child from a Polish court. Without knowing the details of that order, and depending on the details, it might be worth mentioning in your appeal that:
(1) you have a Polish son (include photocopy of birth certificate and passport)
(2) a Polish court has stated that you...

Directive 2004/38/EC
Article 13 - Retention of the right of residence by family members in the event of divorce, annulment of marriage or termination of registered partnership

2. Without prejudice to the second subparagraph, divorce, annulment of marriage or termination of the registered partnership referred to in point 2(b) of Article 2 shall not entail loss of the right of residence of a Union citizen's family members who are not nationals of a Member State where:
(a) prior to initiation of the divorce or annulment proceedings or termination of the registered partnership referred to in point 2(b) of Article 2, the marriage or registered partnership has lasted at least three years, including one year in the host Member State; or
(b) by agreement between the spouses or the partners referred to in point 2(b) of Article 2 or by court order, the spouse or partner who is not a national of a Member State has custody of the Union citizen's children; or
(c) this is warranted by particularly difficult circumstances, such as having been a victim of domestic violence while the marriage or registered partnership was subsisting; or
(d) by agreement between the spouses or partners referred to in point 2(b) of Article 2 or by court order, the spouse or partner who is not a national of a Member State has the right of access to a minor child, provided that the court has ruled that such access must be in the host Member State, and for as long as is required.

Before acquiring the right of permanent residence, the right of residence of the persons concerned shall remain subject to the requirement that they are able to show that they are workers or self-employed persons or that they have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State, or that they are members of the family, already constituted in the host Member State, of a person satisfying these requirements. 'Sufficient resources' shall be as defined in Article 8(4).

Such family members shall retain their right of residence exclusively on personal basis.

Azhaar · Post by **Azhaar** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:58 pm

But i thought she said that her son in Poland!!! thats what i dont understand why!!"

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:05 pm

Azhaar wrote:But i thought she said that her son in Poland!!! thats what i dont understand why!!"

No her son is presently visiting her parents.

But for temporary absences of up to 6 months, the child (an EU citizen) does not loose residence in the UK. So legally the child continues to have a legal right of residence in the UK.

Directive 2004/38/EC
3. Continuity of residence shall not be affected by temporary absences not exceeding a total of six months a year, or by absences of a longer duration for compulsory military service, or by one absence of a maximum of 12 consecutive months for important reasons such as pregnancy and childbirth, serious illness, study or vocational training, or a posting in another Member State or a third country.

Hopefully the child will soon return the UK...

made_in_ussr · Post by **made_in_ussr** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:59 pm

i am still married. my child was born here and lived here. i applied in July for PR and went for holidays to the seaside and then to my mum. we decided to let my child to stay with my mum because it will be very difficult for me to deal with all this-promotion at work, Master degree, uncertain situation with PR,etc So we decided that till half term she will be at my mum's place.it is nothing abnormal to let your child to stay with granny. she started to attend musical school, she started to play the flute, she started to improve her Russian, etc Of course she misses me, but skype helps us a bit...just a bit.
so i got the reply from UKBA on Saturday, so I could go home and bring my child back. Easy.
But...there was refusal in the letter from UKBA. thats why I have to deal with this situation now-lawers, appeal, hearing in tribunal court,etc
thank you guys for all help you privided to me here.
today I have seen a lawer( you adviced him here on the forum). I left all my documents with him and.... all my money. all this process isnt cheap....
he told me that :
a) i am still married so I have to proove that my husband exercised TR for 5 years;
b) if i am divorced before hearing ( i will be, the divorce decision will be made in a week time) I have to proove that mu ex-husband exercised TR only for 1 year"
c) options above must work , if not- 'zambrano case'...my child ( i dont like this option- i think it is unfair to use your child's details to save our future...)
So appeal will be written soon, the hearing will be in December-January, if all is Fine, I am going home this winter. if not-plan B, there will be another court and I will be at home in spring.

and today I slept for some hours...from saturday.

good news-the lawer told me that if my school asks me about my legal status there, there will be a letter from tribunal court that we made an appeal so it means that i have the right to work ( to earn on this case...)

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:02 pm

made_in_ussr wrote:so i got the reply from UKBA on Saturday, so I could go home and bring my child back. Easy.

What did you hear from them?

made_in_ussr · Post by **made_in_ussr** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:08 pm

made_in_ussr wrote:
so i got the reply from UKBA on Saturday, so I could go home and bring my child back. Easy.

What did you hear from them?

let me explain: there was one letter on Saturday. i hoped to get the PR and live normally. but there was refusal.
so one letter-one refusal.

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:54 pm

I'm glad to hear you've found a lawyer. You've found out that they are not cheap. You need to make the lawyer work for you. Do your own research and lead them to what they need to do.

They said that you need to show how your husband exercised treaty rights for (a) five years or (b) 1-year if divorced. Great, I think you knew that yourself. What strategy have they for proving that? A letter to your husband? Are they proposing a court order? A letter to the inland revenue? You will not be the first nor last person to be in this situation. Get your lawyer to do some work towards getting this evidence.

Don't be tempted to use them as a shoulder to cry on (that would be expensive) use your friends for that.

It's reassuring to know that your job is secure pending appeal.

made_in_ussr · Post by **made_in_ussr** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:06 pm

I'm glad to hear you've found a lawyer. You've found out that they are not cheap. You need to make the lawyer work for you. Do your own research and lead them to what they need to do.

They said that you need to show how your husband exercised treaty rights for (a) five years or (b) 1-year if divorced. Great, I think you knew that yourself. What strategy have they for proving that? A letter to your husband? Are they proposing a court order? A letter to the inland revenue? You will not be the first nor last person to be in this situation. Get your lawyer to do some work towards getting this evidence.

Don't be tempted to use them as a shoulder to cry on (that would be expensive) use your friends for that.

It's reassuring to know that your job is secure pending appeal.

several thousands ...
of course I am still on the forum searching for the answers
they told me that they will write an appeal, they never lost their cases, they will ask the court to disclosure documents but..homeoffice doesnt like to do it. he had a look on the documents I had...
he asked me to ask the polish court about the certain date of the initial aspect of my divorce is granted, so i think we could try to proove 1 year of my husband's exercising treaty rights ( i have got all bank statements for one year for his credit card-showing that he bought a lot of building materials for his business) and the lawer told me that it is really good because we can show and proove that he lived here , same address, economically active...

but...your post made me to hesiate now..... how can they obtain the proofs? hmmmmmm
I DONT KNOW!

made_in_ussr · Post by **made_in_ussr** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:24 pm

do u know how to obtain proofs that my husband exersied TR? i mean what the lawers usually do in this situation?

I have edited your post as you are not allowed to write in block letter or using a large font size [Obie]

mcovet · Post by **mcovet** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:46 pm

the one thing someone used to suggest here is a private detective to find out whether your husband is still working in the UK. As regards getting your husband to court to give evidence or make him supply evidence. The problem with this is that he may well not even have enough evidence to prove that which needs proving. So if he tried to apply for PR with those docs he'd get a refusal. Which leads me to believe that even if you get him to give evidence during the hearing, the UKBA will argue that only oral evidence cannot provide the proof sufficient to confirm the right.

Therefore, the only thing possible is to get the court to request all the NI contributions and Tax payments by your husband for the required period (I don't know what else the self-employed need to submit, self-assessment forms etc). You have nothing to worry about, if you qualify for PR and just lack the docs, they are obtainable. But was your husband really working/otherwise exercising treaty rights without break?

Anyway, a lawyer would not in my opinion help any more than you yourself, unless the lawyer is so knowledgeable in the subject and has dealt with similar cases in the past that you could rely on them (a rare occasion). If you agree to pay that lawyer and ask him what exactly he proposes to do on your behalf before coughing up the money then it would be reasonable. Otherwise, I suggested to you before, go to a Citizens' Advice Bureau!!! They are FREE and some even know what to do.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:58 am

mcovet, time of the essence in this case. CAB is a nice idea but rarely do they have same-day appointments.

Your solicitor may or may not be aware of ways he can get information about your husband's work. Make sure he has read http://freemovement.wordpress.com/2011/ ... ean-cases/ and http://freemovement.wordpress.com/2011/ ... rden-post/

made_in_ussr · Post by **made_in_ussr** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:49 am

i know that my husband were working during last 5 years for sure.
he was self-employed.
so i hope that the court will get an access to the different organizations and institution to check it.
i wasnt trembling yesterday for some hours, but worries came back again.
i am not sure in the result of the appeal...i dont know how will they get an evidence.....
i wrote to my lawer asking about their strategy and asking to see the written appeal before sending so....will see

lmuee08 · Post by **lmuee08** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:56 am

good luck to you. and wish all the best to come. your case reminded me 2 years ago. at least you have a child, but I had no body and had to fight and am still fighting on my own.

you are not alone. I m sure there are some people over there, like us, disadvantaged and abused by the unfairness.

keep us posted with your progress

made_in_ussr · Post by **made_in_ussr** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:12 am

i wrote an email to my husband asking for help-to support application. he started to arrange a deal with me....i called today again to him- he asked to bring the child to him and refuse from my custody.......
idiot!
so he will not support
and i will not change anything

Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

I HAVE WON THE APPEAL!

question

sorry for moaning and weeping

proofs